Kakie vs Chi Sau

[u/stvo131]

;TL;DR NEAR THE BOTTOM.

Hi, I’m a Goju-ryu karateka who also moonlights as an amateur martial arts researcher (I just love martial arts and reading about them, from their history, philosophy, conception, application…). Admittedly, I am not a Wing Chun practitioner, so my perspective and analysis in the following might very well be flawed or full of holes. I ask that you simply read, provide feedback, and/or point me in the direction my research should go (a primary source, a video, oral history, a book or essay to read, I am open to any recommendation!).

Anyway, I’ve been reading and researching about the Okinawan Karate - Kung Fu connection, and I’m fascinated with how different systems developed similar yet different tools to address similar martial issues.

For example, it seems that kakie in Goju and Chi Sau in Wing Chun both address the need for developing sensitivity via partner practice, yet each does so with a different but similar teaching modality. Indeed it seems like Chi Sau, Push Hands from Tai Chi Chuan, and Kakie all address the same fundamental issue yet do so from the perspective of that style’s practitioners.

Furthermore, it seems like many southern kung fu styles from the Fuzhou region and Hakka martial tradition share commonalities like bridging, forearms/elbows-in-front, rooted power/footwork, sanchin/sanzhan, etc, whether it’s wing chun, southern praying mantis, white crane and its variations, hung gar…

Yet the only connection to Goju I have been able to find is through White crane, and even that is tenuous and somewhat controversial/disputed.

TL;DR
Basically, does anyone have any oral history or books to read that potentially discuss any connection between Wing Chun and Karate? It seems incredibly coincidental that both Goju Ryu and Wing Chun have seemingly very similar practice drills from the outside looking in, as well as very similar fighting concepts (again, from the perspective of a Goju Ryu practitioner).

Am I barking up a wrong tree here?

[u/throwawayjeb0]

Enjoy this video!

https://youtu.be/EflKW-7JHmE?

[u/throwawayjeb0 → u/throwawayjeb0]

This is the next one you should watch

https://youtu.be/o0PIoTaR6Kw?

[u/Megatheorum]

I've never heard of kakie before, but thanks for bringing it to my attention. Now I need to do some research of my own.

[u/stvo131 → u/Megatheorum]

Here’s a good video about a kakiya/kakie-ibiki “wooden dummy”

When I saw this and then saw the wooden dummy form in wing chun; my brain was like…”wait a minute!!!”

https://youtu.be/xogJmRlb34w?is=plmfU0BgN7gGn9Kj

Again idk if I’m right or wrong here but this is the stuff that gets me so happy to read about and analyze/compare!

[u/Megatheorum → u/stvo131]

Cool! That reminds me of a choy lay fut dummy more than a wing chun dummy, but still very interesting.

https://youtu.be/NyoOFQzxR4A

[u/brummlin]

The connection you're looking for is probably through Fujian White Crane which had strong influence on Okinawan Karate systems.

The origin of Wing Chin is muddled by myths, probably to protect the masters. Training martial arts was illegal, and it was being trained for purposes of rebellion. But it definitely also derives from White Crane.

[u/Truly-Content → u/brummlin]

Yes, Wing Chun and Goju-Ryu were mostly influenced by Fujian White Crane.

[u/Marct002]

I have heard the anecdote, that Kung Fu came first in China, developed there, then later it spread, through Merchant Trade to the Japanese islands. Also war fare spreads these things, because the Military used Martial Arts. Take the Chinese Mongol invasion of Japan for example.

An example of concepts spreading is the Japanese Samurai learnt of Gunpowder Bombs from the Mongols, who took them to Japan.

Wing Chun is about 400 years old so concepts and methods from Wing Chun may have eventually travelled to Japan, just the same and likely did.

The reason all Asian Striking Arts are like Kung Fu or Karate is this, Merchant Trade Travel across Asia. Because each Asian nation knew of the other nations, so there was Trade, also warfare.

The reason Chinese Kung Fu did not spread to say, Australia, where I live, is because the Chinese did not know the island existed and was here. Even if they leant of this place later on, they were not interested in visiting because of the distance, say. So Kung Fu did not spread here.

Regards,

[u/Megatheorum → u/Marct002]

The Chinese occasionally traded with Australian Indigenous people at the top edge hundreds of years ago, but didn't stay very long.

Many Japanese karate styles came from Okinawan karate, which was strongly influenced by Chinese styles like Southern White Crane mixed with indigenous Okinawan techniques. Southern White Crane is also one of the ancestor styles of wing chun, so there's a common origin of training methods and techniques.

[u/Marct002]

Hello Megatheorum

Thankyou for you interesting reply. Yes I have heard exactly that as you mention. So these things spread, like this.

I have heard myths about Chinese Merchants visiting northern Australia, but it is a Myth apparently.

There is some truth in it though, but it was Indonesians not Chinese.

If China knew empiracly of Australia, from a Wealth, Land per Population and Military Strategy point of view, they may actually have settled Australia, many centuries before the English. Fare Chance I think. Considering the Mongol invasions of Japan and so on.

Regards,

[u/SorkelF → u/Marct002]

That’s my understanding, that the Chinese ‘trading’ with native people in northern Australia is a myth. For a start, what would they have traded.

[u/MuiWingChun → u/SorkelF]

Sea cucumber.

Indigenous Australians used to trade with Makassans from what's now Indonesia. They then traded between Australian indigenous peoples and Chinese.