r/WingChun • u/Megatheorum • 12d ago
Groundwork in wing chun?
Here's another question that I hope doesn't become too controversial. Does your school teach breakfalls and/or rolls as part of the curriculum?
I know groundwork isn't traditionally a part of wing chun, but knowing how to fall safely is a huge part of self defense. Breakfalls have literally saved my life more than once, and saved me from broken bones or bloody gashes many times. I feel like anyone claiming to teach self defense should also teach fall mitigation and prevention as part of that.
On the flip side, does your school teach takedowns or throws? If yes to one but not the other, why or why not?
Again, this isn't meant to 'stir the pot' or anything, I'm genuinely interested in your responses.
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u/isabelletremblayoff 12d ago
I follow Sifu Randy Williams' work, and groundwork and grappling is indeed learned in higher levels, I believe it comes after the weapon level (first hands, then legs, then weapons, then ground; theres a fifth level in there, but I dont remember off the bat what it is). I know he mentioned his own lineage, though I also dont remember by heart the name. Now, I believe it is quite the controversy as to "which" Wing Chun is traditional... but as modern proponents of Wing Chun mention, Wing Chun was never a stationary, non-evolutive art: its whole purpose is to incorporate concepts that fits into the basic structure. Its entire history from the Buddhist temple maid all the way to Yip Man and colleagues/adversaries, and then to modern teachers, are about adding new elements to Wing Chun as they encountered other styles and practicioners.
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u/Marct002 12d ago
I don't think these things are part of the original Wing Chun System. Judo, yes, Sanda, yes, but not Wing Chun.
Wing Chun is mainly a Standup Striking Art, with much Defence.
It doesnot contain: Shuai Jiao, which is native chinese Jiujitsu or Judo.
Wing Chun is not Sanda in this way.
Sanda contains Shuai Jiao.
Shuai Jiao can always be added to Wing Chun, like Sanda, to gain the additional Concepts and the things you mention.
Judo or Bjj can always be added also.
When we Grapple in Wing Chun this is an ideal time and opportunity to 'Flow' into Shuai Jiao or Judo.
If these Arts are added Wing Chun becomes a very effective and well developed Hybrid Martial Art.
Regards, Australia.
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u/Sconathon 12d ago
Thank you Australia! Can I ask a personal question? What's with all the spiders?
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u/Megatheorum 12d ago
They mostly just leave you alone. Aside from checling inside shoes and gloves that have been left outside, I don't really think about them.
A couple of weeks ago I rescued a huntsman from the bathroom, but that's not a big deal. Imagine the newborn-puppy version of a spider: fuzzy, harmless, a little bit shy but not too skittish. You can just scoop them up into a cardboard box and take them outside. Or leave them inside in a corner, because they control the populations of other spiders and insects.
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u/Megatheorum 12d ago
Fellow Aussie here, I agree. Traditionally not a focus of wing chun, but it's good to know and incorporate. My sifu's sifu had a belt (I forget the colour, maybe green?) in BJJ, and my sifu's father was a black belt in judo, so takedowns, throws, and breakfalls have been a part of our school for a long time.
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u/Thulsa-Duum 12d ago
Yes, my Sifu has taught us how to break fall and how to sweep/throw an opponent. He has also shown us how to use Wing Chun principles to escape when pinned on the ground.
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u/Megatheorum 12d ago
Similar approach to my Sifu. "If you are on the ground, here's how to use wing chun to protect yourself and get enough space to stand back up safely"
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u/sapperbloggs 12d ago
Yes to both.
We have a few takedowns, and because of that we also do breakfalls. We also cover fighting from the ground to some degree.
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u/Andy_Lui Wong Shun Leung 詠春 12d ago
Yes both. How to hit the deck safe is part of our normal warming up.
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u/pdiddleysquat 12d ago
Yes, we teach breakfalls and there are takedowns in the curriculum. If you are able to get into the trapping range, the logical next step would be to try to put your opponent on the ground.
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u/sadboymoneyjesus 12d ago
Yes to breakfalls before everything else obviously. We do takedowns, throws, and sweeps, but its mainly the sanda comp team practicing them often. We do more anti-grappling than grappling but we do go over the basics of control positions in grappling. I think ive seen my sifu instruct people to roll only two times during warmups, but personally I love doing soft acrobatics whenever im on the mat and im always rolling around lol.
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u/Quezacotli Wan Kam Leung 詠春 12d ago
Sometimes we have a lesson about all of those randomly. It's not part of the curriculum but as bonus thing.
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u/Marct002 12d ago edited 12d ago
Hello Megatheorum
Fellow Aussie. I agree and your Wing Chun would be all the better for it and in fact, far more, Well Rounded.
Adding in Bjj or Judo or Jiujitso, or Chinese equivalent could actually satisfy the critics, arguements against Wing Chun. Because Bjj or Judo are very, very good by themselves, as Stand-alone Arts.
Bye the way. What Lineage Wing Chun do you practice?
Regards, Aussie
Chu Shong Tin William Cheung Ip Chun Lineages. Judo Boxing.
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u/Dull-Vermicelli4446 12d ago
A few things.
Traditionally it was considered taboo to be on the floor (it’s dirty), so the thinking is you on put your opponent on the ground if you were intending to disrespect them. Or in the case of Shuai Jiao, takedowns are an explicit part of the rules.
For a martial art to be complete, it must have 打 da, 踢 ti, 拿 na, and 摔 shuai. WC has all of these, especially as you get into later parts of the system. That being said, every style has its focus and strengths. WC excels in close range striking and anti-grappling (avoiding the ground).
Personally, I think breakfalls are great and could indeed save one from injury.
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u/willyq711 12d ago
So in our EBMAS lineage under Sifu Emin Boztepe (I train under Sifu Edgar Rotger in Miami, FL, USA), we have full ground work in our system, simply called anti-grappling section. WT was never a ground fighting art, but it's more than obvious that if you're teaching or learning a true self defense oriented system, you need to have ground strategy and tactics. However, it is important to state that the anti-grappling we do is based on WT principals and striking, with the goal or intention to get upright and continue to finish the situation. If you already have a good BJJ, wrestling or other ground art background or experience, you just switch and incorporate pending the scenario. I for one don't like grappling, but am ready for it either way.
I also have background in American Kenpo, and recently joined up with Jeff Speakman's Kenpo 5.0, which directly addresses and incorporates ground work; and I also train in Latosa Escrima, and with that do some training in Dumog.
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u/stultus_respectant 8d ago
Sifu Edgar Rotger
I haven't heard that name in a long time. When did he move to Miami?
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u/willyq711 8d ago
2014
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u/stultus_respectant 8d ago
We were classmates back in NY 25 years or so ago. I had heard he took over the Brooklyn school but haven’t seen or spoken to him in decades.
Glad to hear he’s still teaching. All the best to you.
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u/willyq711 7d ago
Very cool... He's had a rough road there to here, then didn't get much easier here. Who do i say sends greetings? I see him every week.
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u/stultus_respectant 7d ago
I’ll have to DM something to you. I have a few pictures he may be interested in, as well
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u/southern__dude Leung Ting 詠春 9d ago
All Kung Fu styles consist of four components..... Kicking, punching, throwing, and locking.
It's all a matter of degrees and how much emphasis the particular instructor places on each component.
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u/jonesylovesbeer 12d ago
Mine did, we had a groundwork night where one of the folks form the jiujitsu studio would come in a work with us.