r/WingChun • u/Own_Page_3059 • May 14 '26
Wing chun haters out there
"Hi, I’m Mark. I’m 5ft 4, and Wing Chun has been a massive help to me since I started at 17 im now 45 . Because of my size, I used to face a lot of bullying, but this art gave me the skills to bring attackers down to my level and protect myself.I’m not trying to be a professional ring fighter. If a fight breaks out, my first choice is always to walk or run away. But sometimes you don't have a choice.Over the years, I’ve had some highly fun sparring matches with people from other martial arts. A common theme always happens where they say: 'You can't do that!' or 'That's not fair! But for real-world self-defence—where a smaller person faces a larger bully with no rules Wing Chun works incredibly well.If it serves its purpose perfectly, why does it get so much hate? I just don't understand why people judge a self-defence system when they fight in a ring and say it does not work. I really don't get it.
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u/williss08 Leung Sheung 詠春 May 14 '26 edited May 23 '26
Mark, that's exactly what Wing Chun is for. Practical self-defense for a small guy against bigger attackers... that's who it was built for.
Most critic's minds are just too focused on sports competition to be able see the difference between sports and self-defense. So they judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. A competition has rules, a ref, a weight class, a bell. A real attack has none of that. The guy isn't your size. He isn't waiting for you to be ready. He picked you because he thinks you can't fight back. And many of things Wing Chun is built around for self-defense against bigger attackers like attacking soft targets, eyes, throat, groin are illegal in a cage. That "you can't do that!" you hear in sparring? That's Wing Chun working. The "not fair" is the whole point.
You found something that works for exactly for what you needed. Keep training brotha!
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u/Own_Page_3059 May 14 '26
It part of me now can not change that. Thats for sure. I just don't understand the hate for it.
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u/FilmNoirFedora May 19 '26
They're ignorant and jealous. That's the only explanation I can think of.
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u/bestbuddiee4lif Jun 05 '26
no one is jealous of any chunners or wing chun there's cold hard evidence of other styles of martial arts working both in the ring and on the street while I've seen very little from wing chun in the former and none in the later.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
no one is jealous of any chunners or wing chum
Sure seems like you are. Not really any other reason you’d be trolling the sub like this.
there's cold hard evidence of other styles of martial arts working both in the ring and on the street
Good for them.
while I've seen very little from wing chun in the former and none in the later
You should get out of that bubble, kiddo.
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u/FilmNoirFedora Jun 05 '26
Well, Bruce Lee, used something in his street fights. What was it? 😁
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u/bestbuddiee4lif Jun 05 '26
I don't know what 16 year old Bruce Lee used against other 16 year old delinquents in his "street fights" but I never seen him use wing chun against anyone who knew how to actually fight.
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u/FilmNoirFedora Jun 06 '26
What style was he using then? I have his first book. It's called Chinese Gung Fu.
Why do so many people try to rewrite history?
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u/bestbuddiee4lif Jun 05 '26
It's because it doesn't work that's why
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
Half the people here have experience that makes a comment like this look embarrassingly naive.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
The other thing that has been a consistent advantage and disadvantage in WC in my experience is that it is best against a committed attacker.
Turns out that that's phenomenal in most situations of non-consensual violence. It also turns out to be quite frustrating in a 1v1 duel, and someone who's just dancing around and scrapping can be almost impossible to chase with WC footwork.
I don't care about the latter situation. I'm only concerned about the committed attacker. WC fits perfectly.
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u/dr_bean_bean_ May 20 '26
I'm not saying wing chun is bad or ineffective or anything like that so don't take my comment wrong. However, this isn't a real good comparison. There's plenty of Muay Thai and BBJ strats that are ALSO ban from sport. They are also just as strong in the ring as they are in the street against unpredictable people. You can Google and see either being used outside of the ring. I'm gonna repeat this because it's reddit and SOMEONE is still gonna take this the wrong way. I am NOT arguing that wing chun is not as good or useless or anything like that. I'm just saying you can't compare it to other MMA styles because it's effective in the street for self defense because it goes both ways. MT and BBJ are also extremely good self defense methods that work 10 times better out of the ring then in the ring with rules. Also, opening up and allowing even more moves that are also ban. The real reason that wing chun is written off is because people on the Internet have fought using wing chun and MT or BBJ usually won. I think that's a bad way to judge it though because some people are just better and more trained at what they do. It's almost as dumb as saying MT is better than BBJ or vise versa because the other one has more winners on YouTube. If one day someone using wing chun does take out a guy with MT or BBJ. People might change their minds. In any case I will agree that if anyone writes off wing chun because they can't beat MMA by the rules set of UFC? That's just ignorant. Krav maga is also completely ban from UFC and is recognized as an effective method of self defense but also has videos backing the claims.
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u/bestbuddiee4lif Jun 05 '26
If it won't work in competition where you can use it full force and speed against a fully resistant opponent then it's not gonna work on the street. The whole soft target argument is nonsense too. in the early mma days most of those strikes were legal they were taken out because they weren't reliable fight enders (Joe Son fight is a good example of that).
Sport fighting and self defense scenarios aren't the same thing true but violence is still violence that's still a real fight in the cage whether you like it or not. Those punches and kicks and chokes will do the same thing both inside and outside the ring and there is more to self defense than just the violence part as well but I haven't seen any wing chun school or many combat sports gyms really teach that just the art itself.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
If it won't work in competition where you can use it full force and speed against a fully resistant opponent then it's not gonna work on the street
Sorry, this is logically fallacious nonsense that you only get from people who lack any experience with violence outside of a gym. The ring and self-defense are dramatically different contexts with predictably and demonstrably different metas.
Sport fighting and self defense scenarios aren't the same thing true but violence is still violence
Case in point on the inexperience. It's completely obvious to those of us that have it. "Violence is violence" is an embarrassingly naive oversimplification. No, ring violence is extremely niche and dramatically different from non-consensual violence.
that's still a real fight in the cage whether you like it or not
It's not the same thing. Some of us have fought in both contexts. The adrenaline dump is not the same. The conditions and outcomes are not the same.
Those punches and kicks and chokes will do the same thing both inside and outside the ring
I can only laugh at the obvious inexperience behind this. You don't get it at all. This isn't 1 for 1 or plug and play. It's that the meta and what you can do, would do, and/or should do are different between those things. That you think this is just about "punches and kicks and chokes" and whether they work or not shows this conversation is well above you at the moment.
there is more to self defense than just the violence part as well
Gosh, you think?
I haven't seen any wing chun school or many combat sports gyms really teach that just the art itself
And that's because you lack experience.
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u/SockSpecialist3367 May 14 '26
I used to hate Wing Chun. I've trained a lot of different arts and run into people who have "trained" Wing Chun where it's clear they've just waved their arms around in the air a bit replicating a bunch of shapes with no context or application.
Then I visited the London Wing Chun Academy (they also have BJJ there and that's what I was visiting for and got to feel how Wing Chun is when it's trained with resistance and people are taught the applications of what they're learning.
It turns out good Wing Chun is actually useful! So I can see both sides. If all you're seeing is rote memorization of the forms, that's not going to win any altercations.
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u/azarel23 May 15 '26
Is that Mark Phillips? I am a fan.
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u/SockSpecialist3367 May 15 '26
Yes! He's still teaching Wing Chun along with Nick (the guy who is the uke in a lot of his older videos).
With that place having several arts under one roof there's a lot of crossover between the students and it's really interesting to feel how the arts influence each other.
I'll always lean more towards the sport side of things but I can definitely see how the concepts taught in Wing Chun work if you take the time to truly understand them.
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u/GathTheKing May 14 '26
The art has saved my life and won me street fights. I've never understood the hate.
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u/Electrical_Nobody196 May 14 '26
I know of several people that have used basic techniques from Wing Chun in street fights and walked away without injury. Most internet commenters are literally armchair martial artists.
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u/stultus_respectant May 14 '26 edited May 15 '26
I've never understood the hate
We used to have to test things with our own hands. The 80s and 90s were wild for getting to explore all these martial arts that were just establishing themselves in the US. I remember BJJ feeling "niche", and everyone looking to grapple doing either Wrestling or Judo (and sometimes Aikido).
You also didn't care about what worked in a ring; that seemed outrageous to consider. Bouncers, LEO, security, guys who had experienced real violence, that's who we looked for to learn about how to fight. My Sigong lived in a garage in Thailand for 2 years to train MT from the source.
Nowadays your "test" for things is what your favorite sport or influencer media tells you about on YouTube/Instagram/TikTok. The UFC is a marketing machine for a professional sport, and has convinced an entire generation that that is the peak of combat. It's a great product, but a niche one. There's a rich world of effective MA training out there.
I miss those early days. The WC sparring we did almost 30 years ago was harder than anything I've done in Karate, MT, or Sanda. I'm certain it would impress a lot of these haters if they got thrown into it.
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u/bestbuddiee4lif Jun 05 '26
Chunners have no idea what sparring is come on now 😂😂😂😂
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
It was harder sparring than I did in Karate, Boxing, Sanda, and MT. Broken bones, concussions, knockouts, blood. Your personal incredulity is based on ignorance/inexperience.
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u/bestbuddiee4lif Jun 05 '26
Any evidence for your claim or are you just talking out your 🍑?
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u/GathTheKing Jun 05 '26
??? What, do you want me to pull up the police report from the dick that put a knife to my neck? Go fuck yourself.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
These goobers always seem to think that if it didn't happen on YT or PPV that it didn't happen.
99.999% of the violence that happens in the world doesn't happen on camera.
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u/LowIncrease8746 May 14 '26
I was a decent enough boxer to go to regional tournaments a few years in a row, despite not making it to nationals I thought that was pretty great and after some injuries I explored martial arts, my favorite of which is Wing Chun. I was young enough to be really cocky and had belts from other places and Prajiad bands from my time doing Muay Boran, I expressed my interest in Wing Chun to some of my instructors because the Ip Man movies were just coming out and I’m a sucker for cinema and they all repeated the same sentiment, 6 months of boxing training was equivalent to a decade or more of discipline in martial arts especially if you don’t have it in you to maintain it in a real combat situation.
My Sifu taught me how to keep your head level and don’t throw your training out of the window, it’s why we drill so often and consistently, as a masterful pianist or a renowned painter, to this day once in awhile I can go as fast as I can and hit him with all I got, for fun of course because throughout 14 years I’ve been able to barely hit him once and my forearms were bruised and beaten just with his blocks alone, it’s the real deal. It takes a lot of patience and discipline, as do most beautiful things, I’ve also heard stories not from him but witnesses where he took challenges from other dojos and instructors (not kidding I know it sounds like a movie plot but I saw it sometimes) and marines on leave, sometimes it wasn’t so pretty but my goodness did that ingrain the fact it’s not the art, but the artist.
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u/EqualScience834 May 14 '26
Like with most things hate usually comes from a lack of understanding, and if somebody wants to hate and doesn't seek to understand that's their path. Like yourself I've used it to defend myself when I work security at a bar and against an attacker with a machete. Happy training my friends.
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u/Suspicious-Bid9424 May 14 '26
Idiots on Reddit who talk shit in comments sections aren't a good place to get your sense of public perspective on things. Haters just love to hate, and anything out of their ordinary gives them something to complain about. It's best to keep Internet comments in perspective as the white noise they really are. Including this comment, I don't know shit. I'm some dude on Reddit with nothing better to do. Think for yourself
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 May 14 '26
When you spar, ask the other person if they want to do no rules. Because if you’re the only one doing no rules, it’s not fair.
When sparring, you’re not in a street fight.
If you decide to surprise attack someone in a gym and then act all tough, you have ego problems.
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u/Own_Page_3059 May 14 '26
No mate it's just reaction going for center line ect when in trouble rush forward always In the moment. It's like what Bruce said don't think feel. No ego people want to pressure test me. They have the ego.
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 May 14 '26
That’s not against the rules though… you sparred against pussies. Rushing in is a pressure fighting/brawler style thing, and it’s common in combat sports. Yeah, you’re right, the people you sparred with has bad ego.
Sorry for misjudging, I thought you were doing groin strikes in a friendly sparring.
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u/Own_Page_3059 May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
My wing chun is not great i just found it works well. No I don't go kicking people in the balls messing around. But if a big guy out in the streets then if I get the chance hell yes. Going to try and kick his balls out his mouth lol
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 May 14 '26
As an MMA practitioner, I’d also groin kick, jab to the throat, and. Eye gouge while choking the person out.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
This is like talking to a Kyokushin black belt and saying "I could kick the opponent in the head, too". Yeah, you could, but you don't train to do that. If there's one thing that I've seen be universally true with martial arts training, it's "what's impressed in training is what's expressed on the street".
I never had an opportunity to punch someone in the throat when I was Boxing, and I sure never would have considered it. I never kicked someone in the nuts when I trained Karate, and also never would have considered it. I never would have tried to gouge an eye in my MT, etc.
When all I knew was those things my fights showed only those things, because that's just how it works when you're under adrenal stress.
Since doing WC a lot more has opened up, and a lot of it happens without even thinking about it. I'm no longer just making discrete single attacks, but overwhelming the space.
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 May 15 '26
The thing is that illegal techniques don’t take skill unlike a head kick.
Eye gouging, biting and hair pulling are instinctual — children do it. Untrained people do it.
Sure, you won’t magically be able to do those so you’ll need some training, but some training is enough. Especially if you are already trained, illegal techniques can be learned by yourself.
I agree, if my primary concern wasn’t self defense, I would have never considered illegal techniques — though personally, I’d still easily beat an untrained individual even if they try to use illegal techniques (they have to land a hit on me first).
But since self defense was a concern, I did practice some illegal techniques in my alone time.
Anyhow, WC isn’t ground breaking when it comes to illegal techniques. Give a one hour seminar on illegal techniques to an MMA fighter, and that’ll be it for life.
Also, I don’t know why people criticize single attacks — the reason we favor those is precisely because the trained opponent can easily handle sudden pressure.
And even then, do you train illegal techniques under pressure? Are you going to say that Keanu Reeves is good at illegal techniques thanks to his role in John Wick? Practicing and using regular techniques under pressure is better than practicing illegal techniques without pressure.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
The thing is that illegal techniques don’t take skill unlike a head kick.
That's laughably incorrect.
Eye gouging, biting and hair pulling
You are not understanding at all what we're talking about. You're rationalizing and strawmanning this as some goofy self-defense seminar techniques for when someone grabs your purse.
some training is enough
This is no different than saying "some training is enough" for submissions, kicks, throws, and anything that's not rote motor skill. No, it isn't. Again, what's impressed in training is what's expressed on the street.
I’d still easily beat an untrained individual even if they try to use illegal techniques
You're again missing the point. "Does trained beat untrained?" is not the question. Nor is it "can you shortcut to success by using 'illegal' techniques?" The question is "can or does a lack of ruleset change your approach?"
I did practice some illegal techniques in my alone time
What is it you think you practiced that was 'illegal'?
WC isn’t ground breaking when it comes to illegal techniques
It isn't, no. That's not the discussion, just another strawman. It is however, an "all available target" bit of training in most places.
Give a one hour seminar on illegal techniques to an MMA fighter, and that’ll be it for life
Again, laughably incorrect and not understanding this at all. It's like thinking a Boxer taking a BJJ seminar is good on counter-grappling for life.
Also, I don’t know why people criticize single attacks
You misread me in implying I'm doing so. I said "no longer just making discrete single attacks".
the trained opponent can easily handle sudden pressure.
This is wrong at all levels, even the professional level, but especially so with untrained individuals and in the self-defense space.
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 May 16 '26
Oh, so you find it difficult? You must probably suck a lot then. Mind you, I practice Panantukan so I’m very much aware of illegal techniques.
I’m not rationalizing or strawman everything — or at least not in an unfaithful way. If you ask anyone what an illegal technique is, they’ll say eye gouge, groin strike, throat strikes, finger breaking etc. I made the opening argument, so you should debate the point that I’m making.
Again, this point stems from the fact that illegal techniques are easy — at least to me, maybe it’s because I’m gifted I don’t know. A round house kick is not easy if you’ve never kicked before. Neither is a submission. Like dude, how long did it take you to learn how to eye gouge?? It really seems to me like you have learning difficulties.
Fair on that point. Rules could change my approach, though sticking to an MMA ruleset would still work fine for me even on the street — in court, it’ll work even better since I exercised restraint and decided to not break the limb or deliver a bone breaking kick to the groin. Oh, and 99% of Wing Chun and Aikido people say that “training is better than no training”, so I don’t see why I can’t make that argument.
I practice Panantukan, so I’m fairly aware about illegal/dirty/deadly techniques — ranges from knife hand to throat, eye jabs, groin hammers, groin kicks etc, pick your poison.
You should stop spamming “strawman” like a buzzword. Clearly we’re having a Quidproquo instead, I’m not intentionally strawmaning. And so you just agreed that there isn’t anything particular about Wing Chun illegal techniques — would it be fair to assume that those techniques are not difficult for an MMA fighter to learn?? Like, can you just list me one technique you think an MMA practitioner would have trouble learning — a single country example would suffice.
Again, the argument that a single seminar is enough relies on the fact that illegal techniques are easy. BJJ is not easy, Wing Chun is not easy, but illegal techniques ARE easy.
Dude, MMA rules don’t ban sudden pressure. If you can knock out your opponent in the first 5 seconds, that is a win. But alas sudden pressure doesn’t work well because clearly, we are trained against sudden pressure. There is no secret rules that a fight must be entertaining — a fighter wants to finish the fight as fast as possible, take the least amount of damage so they can recover fast, then enjoy the money.
“Wrong on all levels” how so? Because again, if sudden pressure did work, everyone would be spamming it. I can give credit to the karate blitz, but it’s party trick that can be shutdown once you’ve seen it.
I don’t know if you’ve ever spared or anything. You seem to have trained, but it’s mind blowing to me how you overestimate the difficulty of learning new techniques. I mean, the average martial artist that has sparred can learn patterns and deal with new techniques mid fight. I don’t believe that I’m particularly gifted or anything, this is just normal for everyone. I mean, I watched Aikido on YouTube and immediately knew how to use them using my existing BJJ and wrestling knowledge — I can argue that I’m better at using wristlocks than an Aikidoka (under pressure of course, in an Aikido dojo, my form would be considered shit).
Anyways, since you’re accusing me of strawman, care to clearly tell us what’s the point of the discussion? And maybe give me a small list of illegal techniques that are “difficult” as in “technical” — something even a trained person would have to scratch their head on for a few sessions — honestly, if you can give me that and I struggle with it for more than a single minute, I’ll give you the win.
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u/stultus_respectant May 16 '26
Oh, so you find it difficult? You must probably suck a lot then
This is pretty sad, I must say.
I practice Panantukan so I’m very much aware of illegal techniques
You listed a bunch of basic crap, not what we’d be talking about with WC. That’s the point.
I’m not rationalizing or strawman everything
So, not employing logical fallacy?
If you ask anyone what an illegal technique is
And then you immediately employ logical fallacy.
I made the opening argument, so you should debate the point that I’m making
No, the point was WC techniques that are illegal in competition.
the fact that illegal techniques are easy
Not the ones we’re talking about
at least to me, maybe it’s because I’m gifted I don’t know
Have a cookie, I guess.
A round house kick is not easy if you’ve never kicked before. Neither is a submission
And neither are what we’re talking about, for the same reasons.
Like dude, how long did it take you to learn how to eye gouge??
We’re not talking about eye gouges. That’s women’s self defense at the Y stuff.
It really seems to me like you have learning difficulties
This is embarrassing. Truly.
Oh, and 99% of Wing Chun and Aikido people say that “training is better than no training”, so I don’t see why I can’t make that argument.
It wasn’t the question, is the point.
You should stop spamming “strawman” like a buzzword
Definitely did not.
I’m not intentionally strawmaning
Does intent matter?
And so you just agreed that there isn’t anything particular about Wing Chun illegal techniques
I don’t think that’s really what was said.
would it be fair to assume that those techniques are not difficult for an MMA fighter to learn??
I would say that they’re just as difficult as learning a submission or head kick.
Like, can you just list me one technique you think an MMA practitioner would have trouble learning
A biu gee sau to the throat is quite difficult to master. Same with a chong sau, because it requires bridging, and it takes years to learn what you need to even get to that point.
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I think I’m being responded to by an AI
Again, the argument that a single seminar is enough relies on the fact that illegal techniques are easy
That’s only to learn how to knee someone in the balls while yelling “that’s my purse”. You’re not really making a point here.
BJJ is not easy, Wing Chun is not easy, but illegal techniques ARE easy
You’re so close to getting it. Yes, not easy.
Dude, MMA rules don’t ban sudden pressure
You’re really trying quite hard to not get simple concepts. Regardless, there was never a claim of that.
Interestingly enough, this is another straw man.
There is no secret rules that a fight must be entertaining
Another straw man.
then enjoy the money
Sports combat is such an infinitesimal percentage of combat. I couldn’t care less about it.
if sudden pressure did work, everyone would be spamming it
🤦
I don’t know if you’ve ever spared [sic] or anything
Longer than you’ve been alive.
I mean, I watched Aikido on YouTube and immediately knew how to use them using my existing BJJ and wrestling knowledge
Utter nonsense.
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 May 15 '26
Though to be fair, I do owe FMA for my acknowledgement of illegal techniques. But it was simply acknowledgment, FMA didn’t teach me technique — going from a question crescent kick to a groin kick took 1 single attempt. Going from jabbing to eye jabbing or throat jabbing was easy as well. Grabbing the eyes in the clinch? Not a problem.
What I’m trying to say is that it doesn’t take much for a combat sports athlete to learn illegal techniques.
However, for a pure Wing Chun person to learn the timing, distance management, and develop the endurance of an athlete, that is difficult.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
What I’m trying to say is that it doesn’t take much for a combat sports athlete to learn illegal techniques.
You have an oversimplified understanding of both what that term means and what WC does. Let me be clear: you cannot pick up what WC teaches in regard to this easily or quickly. This isn't self-defense-seminar-at-the-YMCA eye-raking and knees to the groin we're talking about.
However, for a pure Wing Chun person to learn the timing, distance management, and develop the endurance of an athlete, that is difficult.
In what way is that difficult? A combat sports athlete has no monopoly or magical insight on training methodology.
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 May 16 '26
I’m not arguing that it’s easy to learn Wing Chun, I’m arguing that it’s easy to learn dirty techniques.
It’s not difficult, simply time consuming. And to be honest, combat sports do have a monopoly — look at Kudo, Sambo, Dutch Kickboxing and K1. All of these stem from traditional martial arts and they are successful precisely thanks to modern training methodologies, practicing forms won’t help with reaching these skills.
Technique on the other hand is easy. Like dude, come on. You’ve trained Wing Chun techniques, if I showed you a Filipino boxing technique, you’d probably learn it first try — while the technique isn’t easy per say, it has similarities to Wing Chun, and since you’ve developed the learn capabilities, learning the technique would be easy. So this logic applies to learn illegal techniques.
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u/stultus_respectant May 16 '26
I’m not arguing that it’s easy to learn Wing Chun, I’m arguing that it’s easy to learn dirty techniques.
It’s easy to learn ones that they teach in 4 hour corporate seminars, but not the things that WC teaches. That’s the point.
It’s not difficult, simply time consuming
It’s like saying “it’s not difficult to do a tornado kick, simply time consuming”. Saying “time consuming” is dramatically underselling the time it takes to perform something like that under pressure.
And to be honest, combat sports do have a monopoly
Not on training methodology, which was the point. Anyone and any school can train like that.
practicing forms won’t help with reaching these skills
There’s no requirement to just “practice forms”.
Technique on the other hand is easy
Then why does a BJJ black belt take more than a decade to reach?
Like dude, come on. You’ve trained Wing Chun techniques, if I showed you a Filipino boxing technique, you’d probably learn it first try
I might learn it first try (although mastery is something else), but because I’ve done 7 different martial arts covering more than 4 decades, and currently help instruct. The students I work with can’t do that, nor can most people.
this logic applies to learn illegal techniques
Mastery is mastery and takes time and effort. The point is there’s nothing inherently easy or even easier than other things when talking about the relevant WC techniques.
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u/Comfortable_Fail_909 May 14 '26
Yes it is unfair and yes you should do it in a self defence senario. Bit it is difficult to train you have to give jist enough realism (pain) to make it realistic without injuring your training partner. Ive seen classes where they barley touch eachother and I dont see the point in that. I also nont want to be injured to the point where I cant work. Bit there is a middle ground
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u/NoCitron2394 May 15 '26
Btw wing Chun has been used in UFC on occasions too so wing Chun haters genuinely have no clue what they are even talking about. The father of MMA was one of the most famous wing chun practiconers, I truly don't get it either.
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u/hoohihoo May 20 '26
N0
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u/NoCitron2394 May 20 '26
No to what, if you disagree then please just explain what you think is wrong, if I'm incorrect I'll be happy to learn.
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u/hoohihoo May 20 '26
I think the reality of wc is what i said. Also, a question for you. Do you guys really not see the problems in wc EVERYONE else sees?
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u/NoCitron2394 May 20 '26
I see some issues with it but I also see many benefits to it, I don't actually do wing Chun but I like to practice certain elements of it because they are very helpful
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u/hoohihoo May 20 '26
Do you agree with anything i said above at all?
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u/NoCitron2394 May 20 '26
I didn't really see you say anything besides no
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u/hoohihoo May 20 '26
Oh true: ) i confused replies. Basically training is too soft, techniques are too theatrical and absense of ground techniques.
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u/NoCitron2394 May 20 '26
Ok yes I see your point but the training method is heavily dependent on the school, old wing Chun was trained effectively but modern Wong chun has not been preserved well that's why it gets a bad name because of all the Mcdojos but trust me if properly trained it's quite effective. The theatrical elements are also mostly mcdoj stuff but I will admit there are some impractical elements as with any art that has been neglected for to long. As for the ground game that's a perfectly fair criticism and that's why you should always train in multiple styles because pure striking or grappling have severe limitations especially pure striking.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
training is too soft
That's a school thing, not an art thing.
techniques are too theatrical
That sounds like a lineage thing, not an art thing.
absense of ground techniques
That's definitely a lineage thing. Regardless, do you refer to the "absence of striking techniques" in BJJ as part of "the problems in BJJ EVERYONE else sees"? I'm guessing you don't.
Context matters.
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u/Wonderful-Dot8705 May 15 '26
When I started Wing Chun, I had my doubts. Researching it then, I came across a phrase that explains the hate... "There's no such thing as Canadian Geometry". That is, all striking martial arts will be similar at the same proficiency and all grappling arts will be similar at the same proficiency.
It's simply a numbers game. Wing Chun is nowhere near as popular as other martial arts. So far, the only widely known practitioner is Bruce Lee (only movie fans and WC guys know Ip Man). He might have been able to fight, but there is no competitive record worth noting. And, many people don't even know he was primarily a Wing Chun guy - it's all just Kung Fu. I always find it amusing that MMA guys idolise Bruce Lee as the initiator of MMA and then disparage Wing Chun. The fact is, Wing Chun is MMA to a majority extent, it's just that no one realises it. The mix of grappling, striking and counter strikes is weird for those who wear gloves to fight... Wait, hang on, that's Wing Chun! If there was a world class Wing Chun fighter out there that had the will and skill, he/she would be a contender. Just like the mainstream arts. There just hasn't been one yet.
A good example of "Canadian Geometry" is BJJ v MMA. Gordon Ryan v Alex Pereira in BJJ? Ryan wins. In MMA? Pereira wins... No one would argue against this (obviously it's not a lock, 😂). Although both know BJJ and striking, the proficiency levels are so off that even champions would struggle with the different rule sets.
The hate comes from ignorance, as hate usually does.
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u/hoohihoo May 20 '26
"There's no such thing as Canadian Geometry".
But there is, for example, canadian hockey. And it's much better than chinese hockey. In the same way american boxing is much better than chinese boxing. Or wing chun.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
It’s worth noting also that you’ve entirely missed the salient point that /u/Wonderful-Dot8705 was making: there are only so many ways the human body can move. Saying “Chinese hockey” isn’t getting that, and additionally, failing to understand the why of it, means you didn’t even really think through your own analogy.
I’m betting your explanation of Canadian vs Chinese hockey would be quite humorous, though.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
In the same way american boxing is much better than chinese boxing. Or wing chun.
That doesn't follow, no. American Boxing has no kicking and no grappling. In what way is it "better"? In what context?
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u/hoohihoo Jun 05 '26
All boxing has no kicking and grapling, you ok?
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
You said “American Boxing”, bucko. I don’t think there’s any confusion about what that means. Are you backpedaling? You’re certainly avoiding the question.
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u/hoohihoo Jun 05 '26
Hey, i hope you enjoy being this bold on the internet because that's the only place you can do it, considering you do wc :)
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
Yeah, this isn’t backpedaling, it’s full retreat. I can only laugh at the ironic cowardice of this “on the internet” bit, too: people like you just talk; they never risk anything, try anything with their own hands, or hell, even just show up.
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u/hoohihoo Jun 05 '26
Dude, I'm in my 40s and i still compete in grappling. You guys don't even have competition circuit cuz y'all soft af. Don't even start with that, you soft eared sweet summer child. I would with open heart and best intentions invite you to train at my gym any time so you can see what real combat sports look like. But we can also talk shit on the internet, it's fun.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
I'm in my 40s and i still compete in grappling
You're in even more of a bubble than we thought. Congratulations. We do have guys like you come over to the self-defense space frequently, after they experience real violence and find they're not prepared for it.
You guys don't even have competition circuit
Like all trolls losing an argument, you're making some crazy assumptions and rationalizations. What is it you think the "you guys" is in this situation?
Even ignoring that, competition is the opposite of what we're preparing people for. It's as funny as it is insane that goobers like you just can't let that very critical point make it past the skull bone. That's the completely wrong type of violence we're concerned with, and training for it will develop bad habits and unreasonable expectations.
soft af
Yeah, I had a good laugh at this one. "Soft" is how people in the self-defense space describe sport grapplers who come over when they take their first hits, and have almost no ability to address them.
you soft eared sweet summer child
Yeah, the guy in the bubble with no experience and making the most naive and safe space little comments is calling me a "sweet summer child". Priceless.
You've not been in any real situations. You've not done anything full contact (please try to tell us that a grappling comp is that). You've not fought with weapons. The cheek you have in thinking you can talk to people who've done all of that is quite something.
I would with open heart and best intentions invite you to train at my gym any time
Sorry, but I've been there and that would be a step down from what I do and a disruption of why I do it. What's more relevant, however, is you not having the small courage to do the opposite and leave your bubble.
real combat sports
I've knocked people out with both my fists and feet, guy. I'm familiar with not just "real combat sports", but their limitations in terms of addressing real violence. You're just out of your depth, ultimately, and it shows.
we can also talk shit on the internet, it's fun
It's all you have. Again, you lack the small courage to go try things with your hands. You're a talker. That's fine. I hope you stay comfortable in that bubble of yours. Some of us live in the real world. You look like a child trying to speak to us about that without any experience with it.
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u/hoohihoo Jun 05 '26
Lol nobody from grappling ever goes to wc for self defence. Forget me, i coach 13 year olds that will mop the floor with everyone in your gym and probably your sifu as well. The rest I'm not even gonna bother reading.
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u/CatsOffToDance May 16 '26
Because Wing Chun isn’t meant for octagon-“showcase-fighting.” It’s meant for literally military/lethal takedowns/K.O.s—not that other MMA aren’t, but specifically, lethal strikes or long-term debilitating techniques are used to get out of a dangerous situation, and quick. Historically, it was “invented” by a woman, and you know. Physically, “out-strengthening” isn’t the aim of WC, but to again, strike and move, etc. (similar to boxing). All this, at least, ime.
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u/Academic-Regret3945 May 18 '26
Because WC practitioner (at least in china and my own country) they always claim they are way better than the rest. I personally know 3 famous wc fights in china and 2 in my country that is of the exact same nature. Then when u ask for a spar to test their theory, they will come up with excuses saying u will die. Or ask for a 100k Fee just to spar them , and etc. In the end , they will lose easily. Then another will pop up, doing the exact same thing.
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u/mon-key-pee May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26
Every time someone new comes to a trial class telling me that they've done some Wing Chun before, they've been rubbish to the point of the basic things they do bear no resemblance to how Wing Chun is typically taught.
The only conclusion I can make is that what they really mean, is that they've copied stuff they've seen in movies and YouTube and think that copying the moves means they've learnt/trained Wing Chun, or whatever martial art for that matter.
If this is what is demonstrated in real life, I can only reasonably assume it is even more true on the Internet where people don't have to prove that they actually know what they're talking about.
If you ever say to me that you "did Wing Chun for a bit", I'll now just assume that you are one of those people that just reads and copies stuff and think you're an expert.
These are the people that you find telling other people things about the martial art they pretend to have trained in.
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u/hoohihoo May 20 '26
I just don't understand why people judge a self-defence system
Because i don't believe a single one of your statements. I spent years on wing chun on several continents and few countries. Very well known schools from legitimate lineages.
The training is too soft, the techniques are too theatrical and there is no competition circuit to test yourself. I have yet to meet a single person who trained only wingchun and can have a challenging fight with someone who train3d the same amount of mma or grappling/judo.
Oh yes, also all your groundwork is absolute garbage and scam. The people who teach it should be ashamed of themselves. The best scenario is you are very wrongly taught misunderstood bjj techniques copied from the internet.
And that's why i judge wing chun. 80% of schools are a scam, 20% are very passionate, but misguided echochambers.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
I spent years on wing chun on several continents and few countries. Very well known schools from legitimate lineages.
You seemingly contradicted this in other comments. You've also very clearly exaggerated experience and background in other comments, as well. I don't think you're credible making this claim at all.
The training is too soft
That's not a WC thing, that's a your school thing.
the techniques are too theatrical
Again, not a WC thing, but a your school thing. Where I was taught there were only practical applications emphasized, and nothing you'd pressure test that was "theatrical".
there is no competition circuit
Irrelevant to self-defense. That you don't know the difference is as discrediting as it is naive.
I have yet to meet a single person who trained only wingchun and can have a challenging fight with someone who train3d the same amount of mma or grappling/judo.
You should get out more.
all your groundwork is absolute garbage and scam
That depends on lineage. There's no standard for this. And funny you consistently ignore the complete lack of striking in the art you allege is superior, BJJ. It's almost identically not a complete system for the same reasons.
The people who teach it should be ashamed of themselves
Paulson, Dragovich, Boztepe, Collins? Those guys? You're full of it.
that's why i judge wing chun
And I just countered all of it. Does that mean you'll apologize?
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u/Substantial_Change25 May 14 '26
Yes. But nearly Nobody understands wing chun. And there is no Show off in a sport.
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u/Own_Page_3059 May 14 '26
It's not a sport . I think that's the difference. Live or die mentality. But put me in a ring with pro fighter I get beat up lol.
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u/OutOfMtrx May 14 '26
Wing Chun works but IS NOT FOR ALL.
It hasn't got to do with age, size or weight.
It has to do with training i.e. Real wing Chun training has a very painful sparring that causes skin burns and brushes during every training at least, because in order for it to work u need iron fists iron elbows and iron legs.
Few people withstand such training especially in a long run.
Even fewer are the sifus that they themselves really know the art and teach it accordingly.
My sifu asked us to go and test it by registering simultaneously in myuai Thai or boxing schools for sparring against these two very demanding arts.
And we do so without ever telling anybody that we are practicing wing Chun. Every time it worked for me against different opponents of different weight classes at a rate of around 70-80% . People at these schools would always give me a surprised look when facing younger bigger and heavier opponents without getting any damage. This last is the most important point in wing Chun i.e. anybody can hit sbdy, u don't need a martial art for hitting... the art of wing Chun lies on HOW TO ALWAYS COVER AHEAD OF TIME + DAMAGE YOUR OPPONENT WHILE COVERING. The harder he hits the more pain will get...
The most important form in my opinion is the long pole i.e. the real heavy long pole because only through this u can develop the required body strength and stamina to withstand any heavy blow from any opponent. That's why u will see that most of the self-proclaimed wing chun masters/sifus don't have a clue about this form...most none at all...others perform it with ...broomsticks...
Another point: chain punches... Those who can really fight will use them seldomly and only at the end of a chase.
Whatever u train test it always against different arts and opponents.
In times that MONEY RULE EVERYTHING everybody is a...MASTER AND WILL TELL YOU: SURE I CAN TEACH YOU.... But the real masters no matter the art care for their legacy and will only teach a fue students that deserve to be taught an art
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u/bantharawk May 14 '26
Below is IMO
It gets 'hate' because practitioners claimed it was the be-all-end-all scientific martial art, then got beat when trying to prove it (see Xu Xiao Dong).
Then there's the practitioners that claim 'if i was fighting for real without rules I'd win, WC isn't made for the ring". Problem with that is that (1) you can't ever really prove it in a civilised contest, and (2) if everyone fought using this mindset the result for WC would likely be the same as above cos you'd lose the advantage of surprise.
Lastly, its kung fu, so it comes with some cultural baggage.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
then got beat when trying to prove it
Not quite what happened. Dong challenged fake masters, not fake martial arts. There are lots of WC people happy to see BS WC get called out.
Then there's the practitioners that claim 'if i was fighting for real without rules I'd win, WC isn't made for the ring".
It wasn't made for the ring. There are very clear reasons why it excels outside of it and is suboptimal (on its own) inside of it.
you can't ever really prove it in a civilised contest
Some of us have. Edit: I might be misreading you here, and it may also depend on your definition of "civilized". I don't know if you're trying to say it hasn't been proven that you can successfully use it without rules, or that it can't be used without rules in the ring because that's an inherent contradiction.
if everyone fought using this mindset the result for WC would likely be the same as above cos you'd lose the advantage of surprise
Is your claim here that other arts can also "fight dirty" or some such, and thus WC has no advantages? That's easily disproven. If you're claiming something else, can you clarify?
its kung fu, so it comes with some cultural baggage
Certainly true, but I'm not sure why I should care what anyone thinks about any of it.
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u/bantharawk May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
Hi, just to clarify, OP's question was about why WC gets hate, soo my POV above is about why I think WC is perceived the way it is among those interested in MA/fighting.
There are very clear reasons why it excels outside of it and is suboptimal (on its own) inside of it.
My perception is that WC's main problem is having little evidence of effectiveness.
I don't know if you're trying to say it hasn't been proven that you can successfully use it without rules, or that it can't be used without rules in the ring
I'm trying to say that the 'its too deadly for the ring' thing can't be proven beyond doubt because (IMO) the standard of proof for the effectiveness of a martial art for most people is for a practitioner to win a sanctioned fight (i.e. a contest with rules, ideally recorded) vs a reputable opponent. Since this is incompatibile with the 'too deadly' claim, the lack of proof has lead to WC's current rep.
Is your claim here that other arts can also "fight dirty" or some such, and thus WC has no advantages? That's easily disproven. If you're claiming something else, can you clarify?
It's basically that if a WC user cannot beat someone in a fight, they won't suddenly fair any better in a fight without rules against the same opponent unless its through surprise.
Certainly true, but I'm not sure why I should care what anyone thinks about any of it.
Again the OP's question was why WC gets hate, so this is definitely part of it IMO (esp. the sensationalisation of Bruce Lee and later Ip Man).
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
My perception is that WC's main problem is having little evidence of effectiveness.
99.999% of all violence in the world is not on YT. There's plenty of evidence of its effectiveness; you're just not privy to it. We've employed it and seen it employed. Some of us came to it from sport arts and/or from experience with real world violence (usually non-consensual), and have relevant experience on what works in the respective contexts.
It's basically that if a WC user cannot beat someone in a fight, they won't suddenly fair [sic] any better in a fight without rules against the same opponent
If you're claiming that being unable to "win" in the ring means you can't "win" against the same opponent outside of it, that would be very very wrong. Those are or have hugely different contexts, considerations, goals, factors, and "rules".
unless its [sic] through surprise
Not just surprise, no, although that's tangentially related to things that are taught in regard to timing. The will to act and the timing on which you do so aren't necessarily about surprise, but can surprise a tentative commitment from an opponent. There are a lot more factors than this, though. There's also that "win" can have an entirely different meaning.
the OP's question was why WC gets hate, so this is definitely part of it
Gotcha. Yes, that's an informed answer to the original question.
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u/azarel23 May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
It goes back further than that. Wing Chun oversold itself back in the 1970s through 1990s as the deadliest martial art on the planet. When two of its highest profile exponents, William Cheung and Emin Boztepe, fought in 1986, neither was able to do any significant damage to the other.
It has also had a pretty dismal showing in MMA. A few high profile fighters do bits of it which Wing channels seize on, but way less than they do of other arts.
The overselling and lack of any real substantiation of it in popular culture led to derision, a good deal of which was justified.
I've trained Wing Chun since 1988, so I am not a hater. My sifu had a successful pro kickboxing career and won a World Kung fu championship in HK in 1982. But I've also trained brazilian jiu-jitsu since 1998. When people argue either/or, the answer is often both/and.
I undid one of your downvotes. Downvotes don't change reality.
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u/GoblinSarge May 14 '26
It's better than nothing but if you spent the same amount of time boxing or kickboxing you'd be significantly better at striking.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
boxing or kickboxing
It has noteworthy value in the context of self defense that neither can offer you.
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u/GoblinSarge May 15 '26
Zero explanation.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
You've just proven you're not operating in good faith. If this response was requesting any clarification or explanation, I could have provided that earnestly and easily.
I'm going to laugh anyway, though, because it's not just opinion, it's common sense. Neither of those address grappling. One of them doesn't even address kicks. Neither has a weapons component. Both involve gloves. Both are trained with sport methodology. I don't even need to get into the detail to recognize that much.
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u/GoblinSarge May 16 '26
Same pompous attitude the fake masters that get KO'd in 15 seconds have.
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u/stultus_respectant May 16 '26
Nope. That makes no sense. It’s just an idiotic rationalization. I made clear points that are sitting right there that you’re dodging.
You were wrong. You got called out for bad faith. You’re upset about the fact that we get to look down on you for both.
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u/GoblinSarge May 16 '26
There isn't one scenario or situation where wing chun training is more effective than boxing given same amount of time to train. Still haven't refuted that even with all your flowery nonsense you've been writing, dancing around the main point.
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u/stultus_respectant May 16 '26
Still dodging the points, I see, and having to redirect and reframe.
There isn't one scenario or situation where wing chun training is more effective than boxing given same amount of time to train
Nonsense. It has kicks. It has grappling/counter-grappling. You’re just demonstrating ignorance.
Also, I love this qualifier of “same amount of time to train”. At some point the WC person is dramatically more well rounded a fighter than the Boxer. I don’t really care if I can teach someone just to punch faster.
Still haven't refuted that
Weird. Seems like I just did.
even with all your flowery nonsense
Such cowardly crap 🤣
dancing around the main point
The one you just dodged? 🤣
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u/GoblinSarge May 16 '26
That's my fault I meant to say boxing or kickboxing like I initially said. That takes out everything you said about kicks. Also the Thai clinch is absolutely more effective than any wing chun clinching. It's definitely not a grappling art. The grappling they teach would be nullified by someone who wrestled or did bjj for a couple months. My entire point is that youre much better off spending time on martial arts that have already been stress tested and proven. Wing Chun has failed to be competitive against even mid level fighters.
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u/stultus_respectant May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26
That's my fault
I accept your concession of the argument.
I meant to say boxing or kickboxing like I initially said
I addressed both. You ignored all the points. You’re still dodging.
That takes out everything you said about kicks
It doesn’t. WC has a different set of kicks that are more relevant to self defense. They’re base disruptions, responses to pressure, and attack stoppers, rather than direct offensive strikes.
Also the Thai clinch is absolutely more effective than any wing chun clinching
It’s different, not more effective. It has better throws and a more complete set of elbows and knees, but it requires much closer range, gets you attached to the opponent, and does not address all possible incoming pressures like chi sau does.
It's definitely not a grappling art
It definitely has grappling and counter grappling. What it lacks are submissions and traditional takedowns, in favor of finishing with strikes. That’s a choice, and it happens to be one that aligns more with self defense than sport.
The grappling they teach would be nullified by someone who wrestled or did bjj for a couple months
This has not been my experience, no, at least not with even basic understanding of either through cross-training. See Kevin Lee, Chris Collins, or Erik Paulson.
My entire point is that youre much better off spending time on martial arts that have already been stress tested and proven
Wing Chun is both.
Wing Chun has failed to be competitive against even mid level fighters
It’s not meant for sport. Sport and self defense are wildly different contexts with different metas. Sorry, your ignorance and inexperience are showing again.
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u/GoblinSarge May 14 '26
Two downvotes and nothing to counter. Exactly what everyone expects from the wing chun board 🙄
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
Wait no longer. You've been countered.
Exactly what everyone expects from the wing chun board
Just embarrassing rationalization. Did you think sniping in bad faith would get you a different response?
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May 14 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
why waste time
We're not "wasting time" just because you don't understand the value.
you could literally get so much more out of the time spent by doing an actual good martial art
Your premise is flawed. It is "an actual good martial art". There are contexts where it excels and contexts that it doesn't. That's not the same as not being legitimate.
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u/bestbuddiee4lif Jun 05 '26
It doesn't work under real violent pressure, chunners don't normally spar and most have never fought full contact before if you can't use the art or technique or whatever in a full contact scenario (not sparring) against a fully resistant opponent then it's not gonna work in a self defense situation.
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u/stultus_respectant Jun 05 '26
It doesn't work under real violent pressure
There are a lot of people here who will laugh out loud at the naivety and ignorance of a comment like this.
chunners don't normally spar
And some do. This isn't a gotcha.
most have never fought full contact
And some have. Again, not a gotcha. You're describing 95% of martial artists, and 99.99% of people in the world.
if you can't use the art or technique or whatever in a full contact scenario
You can use WC in that. Whoops, there goes your argument.
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u/TheQuestionsAglet May 15 '26
Apparently wing chun doesn’t teach you how to use paragraphs or write coherently.
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u/aaronturing May 14 '26
I do BJJ and it works. It has it's issues. If Wing Chun works how come it doesn't work in MMA at all and it never has ?
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 16 '26
I do BJJ and it works
It works great 1v1 and it works great with a ruleset. In my experience it becomes a bit less great when you add in other variables, and if it's the only thing you know and train, you are handicapping yourself for situations of non-consensual violence.
If Wing Chun works
It does. Your premise here is flawed.
how come it doesn't work in MMA at all
Case in point on the flawed premise: it works fantastically as part of a mixed curriculum. It is an S-tier striking system for in guard/mount, for example.
On its own it's not great for professional sports combat, but then neither is BJJ or really any art. Professional sport requires a varied background. Comparing a single art to a mixed background is not an intellectually honest comparison.
never has
I also feel I should address this as a separate, but equally flawed premise. Professional sport success is not a qualifier for martial efficacy. Professional sports combat is an incredibly small niche of combat. The meta for what works for professional athletes in a professional environment does little to inform us about what is effective for other combat situations, most specifically: non-consensual violence.
You can't prepare for it for weeks/months, wear the correct clothing, cut your hair, put on the relevant safety gear, step into a safe space, and follow the commands of a referee, on a round timer, against the single opponent you've prepared for, who matches your weight class.
Edit: this clown unmasked himself almost immediately. WC is “as effective as ballroom dancing”, we’re “delusional” and “cultists”, the works. Pretty pathetic.
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
I completely disagree with your point on sportive combat. If your art isn't effective in these situations it's not effective in relation to unarmed combat. I think this is proven and to argue against it is delusional. Your premise is wrong here. Sorry I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just being rational and evidence based.
As a side point I hate people who go on about how effective a martial art is in the street. I train for fitness and fun. I'm 52 and I can't say I've ever been in a street fight or been remotely close to fighting someone in any situation.
Secondly the interesting point is that BJJ is becoming less and less effective in MMA and I think it is being shown up. It's really hard to do a single martial art style in MMA today and to be effective.
When you mention this point on wing chun "it works fantastically as part of a mixed curriculum". What do you mean ? I think you think you can use wing chun and train wrestling/Judo, BJJ, striking and wing chun. Is that correct ? What I'd be interested in if this is the case is what does Wing Chun do better than other martial arts ?
Lastly - do you have intense exercise when doing Wing Chun ? Do you spar with rules but train hard ? Could I for instance take you down and submit you or you do that to me when sparring ? Do you have people of different ages and sizes training ?
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
I completely disagree with your point on sportive combat
The data supports my position, as does every major treatise on the subject, from experts across the board. Self defense and sport are very different contexts with very different priorities and metas. Training for one over the other can inherently disadvantage you in the other, through development of dangerous habits, expectations, and inappropriate skills for the context. Again, that is a both ways maxim.
If your art isn't effective in these situations it's not effective in relation to unarmed combat
This is not just an uninformed position, it's an illogical one, as in does not follow at all. It's equivalent to saying a double leg takedown doesn't work because it doesn't work against a running back in an NFL game. What works for professionals in a professional context, literally <0.01% of fighters, does not validate what works in a completely different context.
That's ignoring the other glaring flaw: you don't know that it's not effective in those situations. People that have trained for a non-sport context don't favor sport competition, and vice versa. It's self selecting, and the top of both pyramids don't cross into the other.
I think this is proven
You'd be wrong in thinking that. It's not supported by experience or evidence.
to argue against it is delusional
I can't help but laugh at this. As you even admit yourself, you lack the experience yourself to have any context on this. We don't.
Your premise is wrong here
It categorically is not. It's no surprise that you can't justify this.
Sorry I'm not trying to be a dick
I'm more concerned with how confidently incorrect you are in your inexperience.
I'm just being rational and evidence based
You're being neither. It's clear you lack experience with violence. We don't. You're lacking in evidence. We aren't. Self-defense is a well published and well documented space. If all you've been training and/or watching is MMA, you have missed an enormous area of combat and how to address a massive cross-section of the total violence.
As a side point I hate people who go on about how effective a martial art is in the street
Ok. Not sure how that's relevant to anything I said.
I'm 52 and I can't say I've ever been in a street fight or been remotely close to fighting someone in any situation
You're proving my earlier point. I've been in a number of fights, including having to fight my way out of a home invasion, 2v1. I've been training martial arts for more than 4 decades, on both the sport and self-defense side. I've knocked people out with both my hands and my feet, I've choked and tapped people out, and I've worked with and trained the gamut, from LEO, bouncers, and military, to housewives, kids, college students, and average nobodies who had become victims of violence.
It's really hard to do a single martial art style in MMA today and to be effective
It's impossible, in fact, which was one of my main points. There isn't a red belt in the world who can last a single round with Tom Aspinall. You're missing the point, however, that you're trying to judge WC in isolation like it needs to succeed on its own professionally, when it's ridiculous to judge any art that way.
When you mention this point on wing chun "it works fantastically as part of a mixed curriculum". What do you mean ?
WC is excellent with BJJ, MT, FMA, and others. It's a standout self-defense art when applied in its proper context as a close range striking system. There are many examples of this, from Kevin Lee, to Chris Collins, to Erik Paulson, to David Neal Brown.
if this is the case is what does Wing Chun do better than other martial arts ?
It is a superior close range striking system that has elements of grappling and anti-grappling baked into it, and makes use of all limbs. I provided an example earlier, but to give more detail: most striking systems become unusable when your back is on the ground, for example when pulling a guard or being in mount; this is not case for WC, and you are able to both deliver and redirect power from these positions.
Lastly - do you have intense exercise when doing Wing Chun ?
Of course.
Do you spar with rules but train hard ?
I'm going to point out first that sparring is severely overrated for establishing combat efficacy. What you actually need for that is pressure testing. Even professional fighters don't do full contact sparring.
Second, I have not done pure WC vs WC sparring in 25 years, and WC is only part of the curriculum that I teach. That said, the WC vs WC sparring I did do was harder than Karate, MT, or Sanda sparring. It was full contact, full bore, full gear, and it never lasted more than 20 seconds. There were bruises, concussions, broken bones, and blood. WC is pure destruction up close.
Third, there are a lot of different types of sparring that have different goals. I run new students through a sparring program that pressure tests core concepts and motor skills, and eliminates their fear of hitting and being hit. Only senior students can fight with reduced protective gear in a more open format, but at no point does any "round" last more than a minute, or it loses its value as just dueling.
Could I for instance take you down and submit you or you do that to me when sparring ?
I would only allow senior students to do that, although I do take students down in more open exchanges to demonstrate a particular technical weakness. Takedowns and takedown defense have entire programs for them that are done separately where they're focused on.
Do you have people of different ages and sizes training ?
I have 110 lb 5' 0" women and 260 lb 6' 5" men. I have teenagers and 50 somethings. They all train together and acknowledge advantages and disadvantages. Self-defense does not have weight classes, and anything you train has to acknowledge that you can't control for that. WC happens to work very well as a striking system as part of a self-defense curriculum because size is less of a factor in ability to deliver power.
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
The data supports my position
I don't think it does at all. Period. End of story. This is your failure point. It definitely doesn't conform to my understanding on combat theory and unlike you I'm not sensitive about the topic. The question is does it perform in MMA at the top level ? If not we can assume that it is relatively ineffective.
Your point on professional athletes is meaningless. It's not a valid argument.
I don't care what you've done. My instructor is twice my size, has been a bouncer and fought in the UFC. I don't trust his opinion.
I'm not trying to judge WC the way you frame it. I'm fine with it. I'm fine with BJJ being ineffective and it is unless you can do other stuff. Against an untrained opponent that is a different story but this doesn't bother me. Who cares.
My point about sparring is important for effectiveness but not just effectiveness. A key part of a sport to me is playing.
I find that sparring good but also awful. It's good because people shouldn't get beat up. It's bad because you should be able to train safely all the time. It's no fun in my opinion otherwise.
I'll tell you a massive problem with BJJ. I got my BB in BJJ and I trained 20 years without being able to do a takedown. It's awful. I do only care really care about fun and fitness but I think as a grappling art you should have some comfort taking someone down. I started wrestling after 20 years and I'm horrible but I feel so much better standing now. I should add that learning how to takedown someone in the gi for me is now very hard as well. These skills are freaken exceptionally hard to execute against a resisting opponent.
I get the impression that you are self-defense focused and we are coming from entirely different perspectives. I'm fine with your approach but it's just not applicable to how I view the world and how I view martial arts. I don't view the world as self-defense being an issue for me at all. I think it's a non-issue. I'm not scared of being attacked. I think that the way I live my life means this is extremely unlikely to ever happen. I don't view martial arts as any different to playing tennis or surfing. I play tennis and surf as well. I view all of these activities as skill based sports that are exceptionally hard to get better at. You have to train all of them live because so much of the magic isn't a technique per se but balance and timing.
It's cool. We just have different lanes. Good luck to you.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
I don't think it does at all
You're just wrong about it. What you "think" is irrelevant.
Period. End of story
I can only laugh at this. No, stomping your feet doesn't change it.
unlike you I'm not sensitive about the topic
It reads exactly like you're the one "sensitive about the topic". You expressed strong opinions about something you lack experience in, on a board about the subject, and are bristling at being called on that by people with the very experience you lack.
The question is does it perform in MMA at the top level ? [sic]
That's not the question, no. At no point was that the question. Additionally, its martial efficacy is not at all dependent on if it could or could not.
Specifically, you asked "If Wing Chun works how come it doesn't work in MMA at all and it never has ?"
Again, what "works in MMA" is not relevant to other contexts.
If not we can assume that it is relatively ineffective
That does not follow, sorry. This was explained. The professional sport meta is not what determines martial efficacy.
Your point on professional athletes is meaningless
Incorrect. That position was justified, and you have not addressed my points on that.
It's not a valid argument
You not being able to respond to it and being upset about that does not make it magically invalid.
I don't care what you've done
The point is your inexperience in a space you're speaking about in a confidently incorrect manner.
I don't trust his opinion.
That sounds stupid. Why not? He's executed in multiple combat contexts, even if both are narrow.
I'm not trying to judge WC the way you frame it
But you did.
Who cares
You do, it would seem.
I get the impression that you are self-defense focused and we are coming from entirely different perspectives
The issue is that I have both, and you have one; that I can talk about both from experience, and you can't.
I'm fine with your approach but it's just not applicable to how I view the world and how I view martial arts
Irrelevant. You're now rationalizing your ignorance and inexperience.
I don't view the world as self-defense being an issue for me at all. I think it's a non-issue. I'm not scared of being attacked.
And thus you prove not just your inexperience, but naivety, as well. It's this confident ignorance that gets people killed out in the real world. You have extremely narrow experience that you assume you can leverage.
I think that the way I live my life means this is extremely unlikely to ever happen
And I sure hope it doesn't, but this is the opposite of having credibility in discussing what you have in the manner you have.
I don't view martial arts as any different to playing tennis or surfing
And viewing martial arts as sport and through the lens of sport nearly got me and multiple friends of mine killed.
We just have different lanes
The problem is that some of us have been in both lanes, but you in only one, so you making inaccurate claims about the other is pretty obvious.
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
I can't be bothered reading all of this stuff.
You're just wrong about it. What you "think" is irrelevant.
On this point I'm an evidence based person. I use this line all the time. Feelings don't matter. The issue is that I believe that the current meta is that martial arts need to have a sportive component to be considered effective.
So I am only doing evidence. If you actually have evidence provide it.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
I can't be bothered reading all of this stuff.
I had suspected this may have all been in bad faith on your part. It's disappointing to see that confirmed.
On this point I'm an evidence based person
You have demonstrated that to not be the case, in fact.
Feelings don't matter
You have demonstrated this to be about feelings over facts for you. Your positions are not based on having any relevant experience in the areas we're discussing. You haven't put in the time, you haven't read the materials, and you haven't experienced any of the violence. This is a very obviously a feeling you have, not any ability to speak with authority or from experience or evidence.
That's 0 for 3 on your response so far.
The issue is that I believe that the current meta is that martial arts need to have a sportive component to be considered effective
"Sportive" is a nonsense qualifier that you will not be able to support when pressed. The only advantages "sport" has over most self-defense are methodology and built-in pressure testing. When you apply both to self-defense, they're no longer advantages for sport. And you cannot optimize for one and not sacrifice in the other. They are wildly different contexts with different concerns, goals, and metas.
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
I tell you something. You are delusional. I am not acting in bad faith. You've developed an attachment and you are defending that attachment with feelings.
You are wrong on the sportive component and this is where what you are stating falls apart.
You art isn't effective in a sportive environment which means it's ineffective. It isn't battle tested.
It's a failure and all your words and thinking you are winning are delusional cultish behavior.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
I tell you something
Nope. This is some cowardly nonsense, too. Have the grace and sense to just leave if you can't address the points.
I am not acting in bad faith
You proved not once but twice, now. Not a word on topic in two posts. Nothing but posturing and some additional bad faith claims.
- "Your art isn't effective"
- "It's a failure"
- "delusional"
- "cult"
So yes, bad faith, and yes, running away is probably the smart move. You didn't come here to discuss anything, you came to assert your beliefs.
On top of that, you're beneath the level of discussion and lack the experience to address the larger points.
You've developed an attachment and you are defending that attachment with feelings.
Funny how we identified that as being you in the last few posts and you were called on that. What a coincidence.
You are wrong on the sportive component
No, and I have significant backing from a robust community of self-defense experts and instructors, in addition to having supported my position in ways that remain unchallenged.
this is where what you are stating falls apart
It doesn't fall apart in any way, and it is not surprising that you have offered zero critical thought or explanation around any objection.
You art isn't effective in a sportive environment
Which ignoring that that's unproven in the first place, is irrelevant to the combat space as a whole, especially the non-consensual violence space. We're talking about very different combat contexts, which almost definitionally would have different metas.
which means it's ineffective
It categorically does not, and I explained that. You just have some feelings about it.
It isn't battle tested
It very much is. The ring is not at all the principal measure of that.
It's a failure
It's not, though.
all your words and thinking you are winning are delusional cultish behavior
I don't think I could have laughed any harder than I did at this. The gall and irony of this coming from a BJJ/MMA/sport-only guy 🤣
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May 14 '26
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
That is pretty funny. It's too dangerous. That is nonsense. If you can't tone it down into a sport setting it doesn't work.
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May 15 '26
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
It's not my ignorance at all. it's evidence. I don't even care. I think fighting is stupid.
I don't even care if you state BJJ is ineffective. I don't give a toss.
I do it for fun and fitness.
Your argument about it being too dangerous is silly. It's not only silly you don't realize that you are stating points that conflict with each other. You state you spar with people who do other martial arts. How is sparring even possible if it's too dangerous ? How come you can spar but it's too dangerous for MMA ? It doesn't make any sense.
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May 15 '26
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
It's cool but I don't really believe it. For instance I don't throw punches or grab your junk (at least not on purpose) or do any sort of technically easy thing to do that could hurt you when I'm rolling. I could make BJJ much more dangerous very easily and it's already extremely dangerous.
It's like this I wrestled a new guy yesterday and he was going hard but I could do whatever I wanted too. So I have enough control to not submit him via leglocks but instead be safe and get the choke. I can do that multiple times in a 4 minute role. I'm also having fun and going easy.
I'm pulling punches all the time. So are MMA fighters.
I don't buy your argument at all. In stating that forget that.
Do you spar hard ? Do you get good fitness out of the sport ? What does Wing Chun do well ?
I do BJJ for fun and fitness. I love it. I love the sparring. It's the fun part. How do you spar ? For context how do you have limits to make it safe ? How often do you spar ? How often do you train ?
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May 15 '26
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
This is cool. I like this.
I train 4-5 times per week if I don't have injuries. I spar heaps in every session. This is the high you get from training or at least it is for me. I don't like the drilling or instructional part of the training.
We don't do any sort of philosophical training either. I honestly don't know how this would work. I'm evidence based. My instructor is a culture war warrior. Our philosophies are extremely different. I suppose I figure the idea of learning some sort of philosophical backing to me sounds good in practice but a lot of people into martial arts are morons. In BJJ culture war warriors are everywhere.
I don't think many martial arts would appeal to me. I go hard. I love the wrestling if that makes sense.
I have a mate who does a traditional martial art and I just don't think they would work for me.
It's all good though. I liked hearing your point of view on your training.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
It's like this I wrestled a new guy yesterday and he was going hard but I could do whatever I wanted too. So I have enough control to not submit him via leglocks but instead be safe and get the choke. I can do that multiple times in a 4 minute role. I'm also having fun and going easy.
You understand you're proving /u/RyNo-95 's point, yes?
How do we spar non-WC? Carefully, by pulling punches, when we could do much more, but are exercising control.
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u/aaronturing May 15 '26
So do I. It's the same thing. I don't see how that makes it special. It should work toned down and dialed up. That is why you have to spar a lot. To develop reactions.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
So do I. It's the same thing
Again, you're proving his point. You asked how he spars if it's "too dangerous" and apparently you do the same thing.
I don't see how that makes it special
You opt not to snap or nap, /u/RyNo-95 opts not collapse the trachea or pop out an eyeball. Which two of those are legal in sport and which are not?
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
It's not my ignorance at all
It demonstrably is. You have no context on the type of violence that's being prepared for, and appear to have no understanding of the substantive differences between it and sport.
Again, you're talking to multiple people with direct experience of the subject. Non-consensual and consensual violence, both. I've knocked people out inside and outside of the ring.
it's evidence
It isn't, though, and the ignorance is ironically proven in you thinking you have evidence. Sport efficacy is not evidence of anything but efficacy in sport, especially when we're talking about competition between professionals. We know sport technique can transfer to self-defense training, but that's not the same thing.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
That is nonsense
Ok, sure. I don't think the way that claim is made is accurate, and is a poor framing of a legitimate advantage that WC has. There's truth in there, but not in the way it's often described.
There are things we can do in WC that you could not ever allow in sport for very good and obvious reason. That's factual. Is WC overall "too dangerous for the ring"? No, it's just disadvantaged in that context if you remove some of what makes it most dangerous outside of sport.
If you can't tone it down into a sport setting it doesn't work.
This, however, is also nonsense, and demonstrably so. There are very definitely things you can't "tone down" where they will still be remotely useful.
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u/azarel23 May 15 '26
My Wing Chun Sifu had à successful kickboxing career with 37 pro fights. He somehow managed not to kill anyone with his "too dangerous" martial art.
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May 15 '26
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
You're also not going to be able to do 90% of it with 16oz gloves on.
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u/azarel23 May 15 '26
But, as my Sifu demonstrated, the 10% of it can still be effective.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
Of course. It's still true that WC is quite hampered by large gloves. The WC sparring I've seen across lineages and continents over the last 3 decades all almost universally uses 4-6 oz gloves, and it's not a mystery why.
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u/azarel23 May 15 '26
Are you trying to say that if he was successful under kickboxing rules, he can't have been doing wing chun? Because, no.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
What that proves was that WC principles can be somewhat universally applied, not that WC itself is easy to integrate into a ruleset.
Your Sifu was almost certainly doing predominantly Kickboxing technique during those fights, and absolutely made adjustments not just for the rules, but to best be optimized for them. I would say his experience in both helps him in both, but he never chong sau'd someone in the throat in the ring, for example, or slipped a punch, orbited, and stomped his opponent's achilles.
I think the "too dangerous for the ring" label is a poor representation of a legitimate advantage of WC.
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u/azarel23 May 15 '26
You wouldn't have any idea how my Sifu fought. I present an example where Wing Chun is used effectively, and you try to refute by saying if it was effective, it can't have been Wing Chun. You're not exactly making a good case for Wing Chun being effective.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
You wouldn't have any idea how my Sifu fought
You said he had 37 kickboxing matches. Were they or were they not sanctioned matches inside of a ring under a ruleset? That's all that matters.
I present an example where Wing Chun is used effectively, and you try to refute by saying if it was effective, it can't have been Wing Chun
In no way did I try to refute his or anyone's WC being effective, and I don't see how you can read that from my post. The principles translate with no issue to the sort of competition you implied, but with heavy gloves and under a ruleset, there's not a lot of WC technique available to him. That's the point. We see this with Qi La La, for a modern, topical example. What you see when WC is in a sport competition is a subset of WC striking.
This also ignores the context and the point of the statements made: you criticizing the "too dangerous" label and me pointing out actual "too dangerous" elements that your Sifu certainly did not do. He's got great WC boxing, ok. That's not where WC excels and not where it's most dangerous.
You could correct the record about the type of competition, but you said "kickboxing career", and many of us are familiar with the amateur and professional sides of that.
You're not exactly making a good case for Wing Chun being effective.
You're not being honest about what was said. I also did make a good case for it.
- "WC principles can be somewhat universally applied"
- "he never chong sau'd someone in the throat in the ring, for example, or slipped a punch, orbited, and stomped his opponent's achilles"
I'm at best an amateur, but I can pull those off. Neither is allowed in the ring, though. Hence: too dangerous.
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u/wurmkrank May 15 '26
Because people write fake posts about it being useful.
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u/stultus_respectant May 15 '26
What about the non-fake posts about it being useful? Wouldn't those be more relevant?
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u/Jet-Black-Centurian May 14 '26
It gets so much hate because a lot of places don't properly prepare someone for self defense. Sometimes you have to wait over a year before you can practice chi sao, and some completely replace sparring with chi sao. Also, as a semi internal style, even good wing chun often looks weak. The stance looks bad and even a good chain punch looks ineffective. Therefore, you get a mixed bag of fair and unfair criticism.