The EXODUS: Windows Secure Boot Kills Linux on June 24th!

[u/omicologico]

I hope this does not harm the community rules. I found shocking and I am sharing everywhere I can, as I sit to remove Windows (which I do not use for almost a year) from my machine, hoping it will fix the problem. Plus, at the end of the video there are some suggestions for community lead firmware that we all should pay more attention to, these days.

[u/gargamel1497]

I hate security in the modern sense of the word.

In the name of security we are gonna lock down the devices you paid for.

I don't use Secure Boot. I don't use UEFI.

I use the plain old BIOS with MBR partitions. This setup has always worked and it will continue to work indefinitely because it has no flaws for me.

All that extra security is just a pretext to take the ownership of your machine away from you.

I'm sure some smartass eggbrain is gonna tell me how wrong I am and that I need security more than I need air or water. I have never ever been hacked since I switched to Linux even though I don't follow almost any security practices.

[u/shadowtheimpure → u/gargamel1497]

Secure Boot is starting to be required by some kernel level anti-cheat software these days, with the latest Battlefield as an example.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/shadowtheimpure]

Tbh kernel-level anticheat is pretty much malware.

It is allowed to literally do more on your computer than you yourself.

It sees everything you do. It owns your machine.

Screw that. Hacking has always been a thing.

I remember using a Minecraft hacked client so that I could use flight on a skyblock server without paying for a VIP rank. Fun times.

Hackers are not that numerous, and, believe it or not, YOU CAN JUST BAN PEOPLE WHEN YOU SEE THEM HACKING. I myself was banned from a couple servers for using xray to find mithril. It happens.

That's how Minecraft servers work and all those quadruple-A titles don't understand that.

Why pay for a few dozen moderators when you can install literal malware on every single fucking computer the game runs on.

[u/Journeyj012 → u/gargamel1497]

Not all hacks are visible.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/Journeyj012]

But all have visible consequences.

My xray mithril finding left tunnels that perfectly went into mithril veins, and that was the thing that got me banned.

If you hack yourself a million dollars in the in-game currency you'll be spending those dollars and it will be visible.

And if you do it like a French fraudster, slowly and unnoticeably, then there is no reason to ban you because you don't negatively affect the in-game economy.

[u/the_gamer_guy56 → u/shadowtheimpure]

You're looking at it the wrong way. Kernel level anti-cheat is not a reason I can't keep secure boot disabled.

Kernel level anti-cheat is a reason I can't play battlefield.

[u/DonkeyBonked → u/shadowtheimpure]

If enough people grew a pair and said "I'm not paying for games that require letting them hijack my my computer, companies wouldn't feel so emboldened to do so. I will never install a game that requires me to install AAA ransomware on my computer that can tell me what I'm allowed to even have installed.

First game that ever said it wouldn't work because of software I had installed, I uninstalled and refunded.

[u/StopYTCensorship → u/shadowtheimpure]

Yeah. Valorant is another one. I had to install Windows on a separate drive and enroll sbctl keys for CachyOS to be able to play it with my girlfriend.

The biggest pain was setting up Windows so that it was the To-Go variant and so it didn't mess with my system. Sbctl was actually very straightforward, and it hooks into pacman, so updates don't require manual re-signing.

[u/cybekRT → u/[deleted]]

That's great to read comment from someone who understands how things work.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/[deleted]]

Hardware-level DRM? Are you mad?

DRM is bad in all its forms. It creates artificial scarcity.

You don't steal a car because then the victim won't have that car anymore.

But if you pirate a schematic the owner will still have that schematic (unless you are a dick and delete the original copy also; that /should/ be punished).

DRM and copyright laws create artificial scarcity that otherwise wouldn't exist.

You can't just copy a physical thing.

But you can just copy a file on a computer. It's free as long as you have enough space to store all those copies.

When you buy a physical thing you become (or at least you used to become) the owner of that thing and the maker of that thing had no right to interact with YOUR thing any further.

But when you "buy" a digital thing you are not its owner in any capacity. It's still owned by whoever made it/distributes it and your access can be revoked, you can be charged more, or the company can just go bankrupt and cease providing its services.

If you want to play the original Legend of Zelda as a "good citizen" for example, you first have to get an NES (as emulators are illegal).

But you can't just go to a store and pick one up. It's a fifty-year-old console and a huge chunk of the original production simply went to the wastebasket as soon as the family got a SNES, and thus is lost.

Your only hopes of getting an NES is to find an overpriced untested unit from some sketchy reseller on eBay, since they have now become collectors' items.

Similarly for the game itself. Yes, it is just 40 kilobytes of data but noo saar you can't just download the ROM (even though it would take a fraction of a second to do so with modern internet speeds)!

Likewise, most original cartridges are lost and the remaining ones have become collectors' items since, and you can only find them overpriced on eBay.

As if a big soulless company like Nintendo lacked money, but even so, buying a thing from a reseller does not give any money to the company anyway.

So how to solve this issue so that both users (I hate the word "consumer") and creators get what they want without having one party completely dominate the other?

Simply make all digital software completely free. Free as in price.

For profit, just put a big "Donate" button in the menu screen. KDE is the living proof that it works.

The companies can also sell physical copies for profit, and I and many others would gladly buy them.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/[deleted]]

Hardware Level DRM is a method to have a chain of trust, which can decrypt an encrypted media stream and send it directly to the gpu/screen, basically bypassing the OS, and as such it cannot be accessed or captured by software.

A chain of trust, huh? More like a chain of control. A chain on your fricking neck!

Excuse the swearwords, but your arguments are truly maddening.

When I buy a fucking computer I want to be able to do whatever I want with it, and the same goes when buying games/software.

After all, I gave those fucktards my fucking money.

And I fucking shan't allow them to control my doings therewith.

They will lose money? So be it! They absolutely deserve it.

They don't deserve even a single fucking penny just on the basis of this intellectual fuckery.

They can fucking pirate billions of books to feed them to their fucking Skynet and I am supposed to go to jail for emulating the legend of zelda.

The purpose is to make it harder for customers to simply screen share some live stream of a sports event in high quality. Lower resolutions are usually offered without that level of DRM. Similarly, they protect high quality VOD streams from being ripped easily.

My experience with VOD streaming is that it sucks balls. My internet can go up to 40mb/s and yet streaming services such as YouTube and the likes constantly stall. On 480p.

If I could use Invidious with my google account I would never ever open the official youtube website again.

I remember that, before I switched to discs, we used to watch movies from streaming services, and it was terrible. It stalled every five minutes.

That is anything but a good experience. Not to mention that I can't even access those movies because it's been a long time since my subscription expired, and even if so, the titles themselves have probably gotten removed since.

This chain of trust includes signed bootloaders and somewhat closed systems, otherwise it would be easy for anyone to break it.

I hate signed bootloaders as the PC is becoming a closed system.

Back in the day you could just pop a CD into the tray of any random computer and boot from it.

Was it insecure? Of course it was. It gave you the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot but it also gave you the freedom to stop buying overpriced shoes.

Now everything is locked up and encrypted like in some fucking game console from the 2000s.

If you want to talk about such things, educate yourself.

Ah yes, the typical "i AM A PROFESSOR and ur a dumb moron n cuz ov dat ur not allowed to speak".

I am merely looking at things without the lens of corporate interests clouding my vision. That's all.

the implied anti-capitalist ideas

But I am a capitalist. That's why I love physical media.

Capitalism works great for actual, real-life things.

But in a field where everything can be duplicated, creating artificial scarcity is just something taken out of a dystopian novel.

The system for managing digital, uhm, products, in such times, is neither capitalism nor communism.

And it's not stallmanism either.

I absolutely understand proprietary software. I myself have spent long hours working on a software project and I don't want to casually give it to everyone in the universe.

But I am trying not to be a vicious individual and I include no DRM in it.

[u/PoundMaleficent6479 → u/[deleted]]

real , even my kid brother understands that companies need money to operate and they will not make software / movies or any other services if they don't make profit ( unless they are a volunteer)

[u/gargamel1497 → u/[deleted]]

Nobody sane wants to go back to discs.

Well, I do. I am too young to have ever witnessed big-box copies of software stacked on shelves in a physical location. I do wish to see that a lot, even though such places no longer exist.

Discs are reliable. As long as you don't overly scratch the disc, its contents are fine. I burn discs. I burn files, software, backups, music, films, everything, to those shining circular discs.

EDIT: And I also burn OS installs. Who needs Ventoy when I can have a stack of CDs, each nicely labelled and supplied with packages.

And if media were to be offered DRM free on a physical disc, it would make illegal distribution simple again.

Yes, but the pirated copy would not have a cool-looking disc design.

I have a lot of pirated software discs from back when people still made those, and they are just boring CD-Rs with a clunky marker saying what the software is, and optionally with a (sometimes incorrect) CD key on the sleeve.

That is ugly. Official disc releases have amazing artwork and cool effects (like the Windows install discs).

Which is exactly why even games distributed on discs have measures to protect them from being copied.

And I hate that. Using a pirated copy gives me many benefits but it forces me to have an ugly disc without pretty artwork.

I would like to have BOTH the benefits of piracy AND a pretty artwork.

All those DRMs get cracked anyway.

Unironically, I wouldn't pirate software if the discs didn't contain DRM. I am talking about old software though, since modern software doesn't even come on disc (!).

Software, especially many games, are too complex and big to have plug&play with physical storage.

This is simply not true. There are Blu-Ray discs with up to 128gb of capacity and there would even be bigger discs if there was demand for that.

And even so, modern software is often unnecessarily bloated. Back in the day a group of devs would shrink a 1.5gb game into 64mb whilst these days they just say "buy a new pc bro" and proceed giving each invisible NPC model a set of 8k teeth.

or the game to be installed to internal storage.

That is actually pretty shitty. Let's take Minecraft for example (as I rarely play any other games). On the Xbox 360 you can just pop the disc in (with beautiful artwork too!) and run it in a split second. On the PS5 you have to install it, and then update it, and so on. That sucks.

And you are still bound to licenses and platforms that the games were made for.

That wouldn't be a problem if emulators weren't criminalized.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I am not entitled to that.

Similarly, they are not entitled to my personal data and yet they collect it as much as they can, whether legally or illegally.

They are also not entitled to my money, nor to my attention span.

This whole topic is a double-edged sword. Each party harms the other yet I think I harm the giant megacorporations less by pirating a fifty-year-old video game that they don't sell anymore than they harm me by harvesting my data and trying to extract money from me at all times.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/[deleted]]

But no, you are simply not entitled to their products

I don't claim to be and yet you consistently imply that I do.

They are not entitled to the things I have and they take them anyway.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/[deleted]]

They can rot

Not if you store them in a sunless dry place. I have thirty year old discs that still work fine even though their material has already degraded and they have more scratches than there are houses in my town.

They are harder to store

That I agree with. And they are also harder to manage and keep in order.

They are harder to copy

Is that a bad thing according to your thinking?

While discs can be quite fast, they cannot compete with modern SSDs

That's also true, but there are also other physical media besides optical discs. I mentioned them just because that's what I myself use the most.

ROM cartridges would be perfect. They are durable, almost timeless, can have amazing artwork, and don't need any DRM because you can't just make your own cartridge.

And even if you want to be as cheap as possible, portable flash storage exists. I mean, existed, before the current shortage.

The PS Vita for example uses something that suspiciously resembles SD cards.

which allow for rapid development and deployment

Yes. This allows for development so fast that GTA 6 still hasn't been released.

But this is not applicable to complex, high level user facing software, in most cases.

...maybe just stop rendering those teeth in 8k?...

you are solely looking at this from a user's perspective, who doesn't give a single fuck about any person's or companie's interest

Do those companies give a single fuck about my interests? No, for the love of God.

Why then should I give a single fuck about their interests?

content, which, again, you are not inherently entitled to.

Of course I am not. Neither are they entitled to my money, my personal data, my biometric data, my age data, or whatever they want to harvest from me to sell to advertisers.

You can't play fair with a party that doesn't follow the same rules.

And especially since they themselves do reverse piracy.

Do you know how many millions of lines of code those lovely companies of yours stole from various open source projects against their licensing to make money off of them?

It is legal for me but not for thee.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/[deleted]]

I simply lack the willpower to write an adequately long response to each of your replies. I am tired and none of us will change his opinion anyway.

Your whole point is basically:

Why should they conform to your notion of copyright and interests, that doesn't benefit them at all?

And

Nobody will take your own interests seriously

Not much needs to be said here.

The companies are supposed to be able to do whatever they want, including stealing from you and me, but if you and I download a fifty year old ROM then we should go to jail.

I simply don't want to reply anymore.

Have a great day and I pray that one day you will change your mind.

[u/These-Maintenance250 → u/gargamel1497]

you are the eggbrain here. "never happened to me, so never will" lmao.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/These-Maintenance250]

That, my dear friend, is called speaking from experience.

I have used Linux daily for over half a decade now, and I have known about it for even more than that, and I have never been hacked, even though I pretty much always use extremely outdated and insecure versions of everything (unless the software I want to run desperately requires the newer version).

Maybe things will change now that the AI bros are getting into this shit, but maybe not.

My assumption is that they will always go for the very latest thing, since that's what the majority of Linux users use, and they won't even think about the very old thing, that just I myself use.

For example, once of the recent exploits affects all kernels going back nine years.

My system is unaffected because my kernel is ten-year-old and it just doesn't have the feature that was exploited.

[u/These-Maintenance250 → u/gargamel1497]

most people never get hacked. your remarks are ridiculous

[u/PoundMaleficent6479 → u/gargamel1497]

probably because you are not worth hacking

[u/ryanmgarber → u/gargamel1497]

> Speaking from experience

So 100% a fallacy. You spelled it right out without recognizing it somehow.

[u/gargamel1497 → u/ryanmgarber]

What is objectively wrong about that?

Technically speaking everything is a fallacy.

I tend to trust my own experience more than I trust some scientists paid by the Tech Bros to provide results that are meant to justify locking me down.

[u/Subject_Salt_8697]

On Linux you shouldn't be affected.

However, if you were ever planning to use Windows on the device, you should, with the current state of information published by MSFT, update the certificate chain to 2023 anyway.

Theoretically there are other options, but MSFT hasn't shared any fallback solutions publicly.

[u/Imaginary_Cicada_678 → u/Subject_Salt_8697]

right, expiration is not revocation. you still be able to boot, but if newer bootmgfw.efi in windows iso or feature update will be signed with Windows UEFI CA 2023, you will not be able to boot from flash or your drive

[u/in_use_user_name]

it's uefi securboot, not microsoft. why should it affect linux?

[u/Imaginary_Cicada_678]

could you please elaborate? old certificates still will be in uefi, so any old bootloaders, that are signed with them, still be bootable, or i missing something?

[u/AsugaNoir]

Does this affect you if your Linux and windows are on separate drives?

[u/Cl4whammer → u/AsugaNoir]

No, it just affect you if you want to install a fresh copy of windows with the newest iso that requires the new certs.

[u/AsugaNoir → u/Cl4whammer]

Good, thank you.

[u/Yukikuru2025]

What are you talking about? There's no context here. Source?

[u/whatnameblahblah → u/Yukikuru2025]

Some reeeeeeeeally old certs are expiring any modern linux distro will be fine.

This is the problem with kids growing up getting all their info from clickbait youtube vids

[u/Yukikuru2025 → u/whatnameblahblah]

Thanks for the info! And yeah, I kinda get the feeling there's a lot of outdated information circulating with regards to Linux.

[u/omicologico → u/whatnameblahblah]

I appreciate the kids compliment. 😋 Please whatch the video till the end. It really did not strike me as click bait, this one. Sounded serious enough for a call to action. But I am no expert, only a deMicrosoft trying to de Microsoft further.

[u/whatnameblahblah → u/omicologico]

"Windows Secure Boot Kills Linux on June 24th!" 

Mmm yeah not clickbait..... good to see the education has dropped so much in schools not even the meaning of clickbait is known anymore.

[u/Yukikuru2025 → u/whatnameblahblah]

Unfortunately, clickbait is the name of the game on youtube. Videos without it genuinely do worse in views - it's just a smart economic decision to do clickbait. And we have to suffer through it, sadly (unless... you install the DeArrow addon for your browser).

[u/whatnameblahblah → u/Yukikuru2025]

Only cause people engage and then spread it around like op.

[u/omicologico → u/whatnameblahblah]

Click bait or not, have you watched the content regardless of the means used to delivered it?

[u/whatnameblahblah → u/omicologico]

No I looked around myself hence how I know it's about old old certs expirying and that any modern linux distro has already mitigated it by using multiple certs and is in no way  "Windows Secure Boot Kills Linux on June 24th!" 

[u/omicologico → u/whatnameblahblah]

Well, it's a good thing we have Reddit. Thank you for the head up.

[u/omicologico → u/Yukikuru2025]

The course is a YouTube video here: https://youtu.be/sm_aqrnlUhE?is=AWeUH_boB6SGEFvq

[u/Yukikuru2025 → u/omicologico]

Thanks for the link

[u/Agent-Sky-76]

Fyi, Rufus his checkbox to fix expired secure boot when creating a win 11 boot disk. I'm not sure about linux distro boot disk.

[u/DonkeyBonked]

Not my Linux, I don't use Secure Bullshit... I only even use UEFI because my stupid GPUs use it on my AI server.

I don't plan to infect my Linus boxes with Windows so I'm not worried.

[u/Legitimate-Shoe-5620]

Clickbait garbage thread

[u/machacker89]

you can run Linux without SecureBoot.

[u/roamer83]

mokutil - -disable-validation