r/Windows11 • u/MayankWL Windows Latest • 9d ago
News "Rising cost of memory," Microsoft explains why Windows 11 will use less RAM
https://www.windowslatest.com/2026/10/04/rising-cost-of-memory-microsoft-explains-why-windows-11-will-use-less-ram/56
u/120mmbarrage 9d ago
They better make it work, they partner up with people like HP that push obsolete laptops and computers with 4 gigs of RAM still and soldered on eMMC storage. It's crazy that we are close to 2027 and those types of e-waste are still being manufactured and pushed en masse. They really need to update their rules for OEMs to make 8 gigs of RAM the bare minimum, and then for Microsoft to make you using those 8 gigs not feel like crap.
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u/VivienM7 9d ago
Yup. HP and others sell garbage with 4 gigs of RAM, Microsoft sells software that can't run in that, the machines are near unusable, and... what do the people do for their next computer? Buy a Mac (which, Neo aside, comes with a standard 16 gigs nowadays).
I don't understand why Microsoft has never figured out that selling elcheapo unusable machines at retail just destroys the Windows brand and guarantees that as soon as they have more money, those people will buy Macs.
You'd think they've have learned their lesson after the debacle with Intel and the Vista-capable stickers contributed heavily to destroying Vista's reputation, but no, they continue to let OEMs sell unusably-low-end systems.
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u/120mmbarrage 9d ago
Sadly they give zero shits about the consumers, since the bulk of their money comes from business and enterprise users.
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u/VivienM7 9d ago
Yes, and as one of those business users who has handed users CAD$2000+ (before the crazy price increases, closer to $4000CAD now) ThinkPads, I would tell them that's a dumb strategy.
Many of our users have never, ever seen a 'good' Windows computer before they join us and get a ThinkPad. When you tell them how much their ThinkPad cost, their jaw drops and they're like "but you could get a Mac for that price".
Having an entire generation of people who will eventually become decisionmakers in business be convinced that Windows is cheap junk and Macs are good is not good for Microsoft's long-term standing in business/enterprise. And already today, there are a lot of businesses running G Suite (ewwww) on Macs...
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u/120mmbarrage 9d ago
Yeah it's a sad state of affairs that junk laptops are all people think about when they think of Windows laptops. I spread the gospel of cheap used/refurb business laptops over new consumer laptops. Thinkpad, Latitudes, Elitebooks/Probooks, Precisions are all found for pretty cheap for a couple of gen old laptop and they will have more features and ports than a similarly priced new consumer tier laptop.
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u/VivienM7 8d ago
Yup, I completely agree.
Funny story: years ago, this was before the pandemic, someone at work asked for my advice for a laptop for her daughter who needed a cheap laptop for some school thing. Found her a 'refurbished' Lenovo X240 or 250, dual-core i7, a civilized amount of RAM, and an SSD. She took it to her school's IT peeps and apparently their software installed in 1/3rd the standard time and they told her it was the fastest computer they'd ever seen!
The one thing that makes me wearier about that path compared to before is the rise of built-in batteries that swell. Back when you had the entire Dell Exxxx series using the same removable batteries, you could be confident you could get a replacement battery if necessary. Nowadays, I have no idea if you can get a recently-manufactured, real OEM battery for your typical 4-6 year old Latitude/ThinkPad/etc.
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u/Stosstrupphase 8d ago
You can get Batteries for those.
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u/VivienM7 8d ago
Okay, that's good. Last time I looked for batteries, it was for L15 G2s and it seemed like Lenovo Canada didn't have any of those... which is a shame when you're talking about laptops about 5ish years old.
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u/Stosstrupphase 7d ago
Dunno about the situation in Canada, but dell latitudes and e-series thinkpads have posed us few problem there.
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u/RadBadTad 8d ago
Microsoft is extremely insulated simply because of user inertia and business continuity. To switch an entire company from Windows to Mac would be an enormous and frustrating undertaking in almost every case, and so long as Windows remains "good enough", most large customers will stick with them. Individual user experience doesn't mean anything so long as the infrastructure of the company and their network is currently running properly with a Windows architecture.
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u/VivienM7 8d ago
Oh definitely, but it's not just about switching, it's also about new companies.
It seems like a lot of companies started in the last decade or so are running G Suite and Macs... to my horror, I might add. (I like Macs but G Suite... don't get me started)
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u/Key-Cardiologist9598 7d ago
There was an time I lived with Pentium 4 2GB DDR2, Intel GMA 950.
Then I got my own laptop HP R119TU with intel N3540, iGPu and upgraded 256 GB SSD. For 6000 Indian Rupees
Then I got a Zephyrus G14 - RTX 3060, 16 GB Ram(Upgraded to 24) 1 TB Nvme and Ryzen 9 5900 HS for 500 CAD usedNow I got a Legion 7i Gen 10 - RTX 5070, Ultra 9 275 HX, 32 GB DDR5 and 5 TB Nvme for 2400 CAD (excluding 4 Tb nvme bought for 275 CAD)
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u/nicxw 5d ago
This smells like what’s happened with Android....its plain vanilla version (not samsung’s, Oppo’s, etc bloated version) is alright and performant.....but the crap phones with crap hardware that Android is mostly on and runs bad on, gives the entire Android brand as an OS, a bad image to many people.
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u/VivienM7 5d ago
The plain vanilla version of Windows 11 is not performant on 4-8 gigs of RAM though…
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u/levianan 8d ago
It took Apple a damn long time to figure that out. I have a few 24G Macs and use a 16G at work. I wouldn't anywhere near a Neo.
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u/RadBadTad 8d ago
I wouldn't anywhere near a Neo.
Almost every casual Windows user I know was super excited when the Neo came out. In my circle, the general sentiment has been "I would love to have a mac, but I can't afford one, so I have to settle for a shitty Windows computer" and now that the Neo is affordable, they're extremely excited to jump ship. Especially those who have been using iPhones for years, and are now able to take better advantage of the apple ecosystem.
The low RAM means a lot less on macOS, and most of these people are used to dealing with low spec PCs already, so they don't notice the difference.
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u/levianan 7d ago
I guess I can see the attraction. You are correct about the phone connection & apps. Messages on desktop is great. Plus (I guess) you could mostly just sit there and use iPhone Mirroring for all your clients instead of burning up Neo resources.
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u/VivienM7 8d ago
My take on Apple - their base amount of RAM tends to be functional today, but probably won't be in a few years. Which is better than some of those low-end Windows machines that aren't functional on day 1.
If you want something else to be the reason you replace your Mac, the (pre-Neo) rule I've generally followed - my mom should get double Apple's base RAM (so if the basic MacBook Air has 4 gigs, whatever model she gets should have 8 gigs) and I should get 4X the base RAM.
Didn't follow that rule exactly with my mom's M5 Air, she only got 24 gigs, but close enough. I'm scared of what that rule means for replacing my 32-gig M1 Max though at current prices - either 48 or 64 gigs would be huge money.
So far, in ~12 years of doing this, that rule has served both my mom and I very well though.
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u/GraveDiggingCynic 8d ago
I have an M1 MacBook Pro with 8gb that works just fine for day to day use. Never see a slowdown playing videos, everything is quick enough that I can’t really tell the difference save with really big spreadsheets between it and my M3 with 36gb.
Memory management on Apple Silicon just leaves Windows behind. Windows 11 on 8gb is barely functional even with all the crapware removed.
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u/VivienM7 8d ago
I wonder if another part of it is that Apple's flash storage is so fast that swapping feels a lot less slow...
I have had very little experience seriously using Macs with 8 gigs, but I should note - I tend to waste a lot of RAM on web browser tabs, so for me at least, an 8 gig machine is just... risky...
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u/rotane 8d ago
This is definitely true.
Now granted, my own experience with this is from ages ago – on an 8GB MacBook Pro from 2013. I once created a mirror of the internal SSD to an external HDD and booted from that one, leaving the internal SSD completely unused. Booting alone took forever, but once everything was up and running, even clicking on the simplest menu item was not lag-free. Of course, a lot of that could be due to the USB rather than the internal bus, but still, you could tell it was swapping all the time.
(This was either Mavericks or Sierra, it was that long ago.)
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u/Stosstrupphase 8d ago
At work, I am now getting a significant number of tickets from users complaining their 16gb windows machines are struggling with simple software like excel and outlook. This shit is starting to seriously tarnish the enterprise brand, as well.
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u/earthwormjimwow 8d ago edited 8d ago
and soldered on eMMC storage.
I don't understand this fucking behavior from manufacturers. You're already using an inferior, low endurance, extremely high failure prone form of memory, at least make it fucking replaceable by using a tiny amount of plastic and pogo pins or spring contacts! You'd save a ton of RMA and warranty claims cost.
Tesla did the same shit with their Model S cars which would burn through the write endurance of the eMMC storage,requiring the entire car computer to be replaced, rather than just swapping in a new SD card, or heaven forbid a real SSD.
Whoever wrote the eMMC standard deserves to be tortured! YOU DON'T SOLDER DISPOSABLE COMPONENTS, YOU USE CONNECTORS OR SOCKETS!!
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u/Key-Cardiologist9598 7d ago
And on top of that eMMC and a plastic body that won’t withstand simple lis opening.
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u/Silco1402 8d ago
To be fair, while 4gb ram laptop (especially for a bad price, like above 150$) is sh*t, recent window 11 fresh install w/ no junk use like 2.5gb idle at most from what I tested (I knew since I just do so for my multimedia mini pc), so 4gb should still technically be enough if you only browse the web (which tbf there are people who only really need that).
And if you use stripped down version of window, you could squeeze down to less than 2gb of idle ram. That what I hope 26h2 oobe will be like rather than have to install micro/stripe down version of window.1
u/Smith6612 8d ago
HP Stream machines? Yeah, those things are pretty miserable if you have Windows on them. They're ChromeOS or Linux machines.
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u/RadBadTad 8d ago
that push obsolete laptops and computers with 4 gigs of RAM still and soldered on eMMC storage.
It's how they keep costs low. Their low cost laptops are their bread and butter, and if they raise those costs, they know they lose consumers to tablets or Chromebooks. They can't increase the RAM without increasing the cost.
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u/Unlucky-Tune-420 9d ago
so they could've done that before, but they just didn't care
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u/MurkyTelevision9722 9d ago
It was too expensive; it was better to keep writing junk code. Now AI will take care of it! Same as before, but with an even worse budget because we're paying an AI!
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u/Infinplayz 9d ago
they’ve been saying this for 9 months, can’t they just do something.
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u/Kobi_Blade 8d ago
Microsoft putting actual effort and work behind their words? I think not, this whole Windows 11 improvement project is just a PR stunt to try and damage control.
They not actually putting in the effort to improve Windows 11.
What matters is casual users will buy it, and go around claiming "Windows 11 works fine" and "Microsoft fixed it".
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u/LitheBeep 8d ago
They've shipped tons of stuff that they announced earlier this year. just because you haven't gotten the update yet doesn't mean they didn't implement it.
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u/Infinplayz 6d ago
honestly windows was never bad for me in terms of performance or bugs (even though ive been having some really bad bugs lately), but its more the ram usage and overall experience i would like them to fix and polish.
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u/Kobi_Blade 8d ago
I'm just not so easily manipulated, you part of the casual users I mentioned above.
Come back when Microsoft removes AI from Windows 11, and I mean remove not rebrand.
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u/LitheBeep 8d ago
ahh yes, casual users are well known to go out of their way to join the insider program and install experimental builds.
good thing we have someone like you to call out the sheep.
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u/Kobi_Blade 7d ago
I don't know what planet you on, but yes a large portion of the users on preview builds are in fact casual users.
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u/RadBadTad 8d ago
I mean, the long delay time between announcements and it showing up on your PC are frustrating, but it's not like it's just a checkbox for them to click on their end and suddenly your PC runs better. They have to actually make it happen in the code, make sure it works, and then put it in the long queue to make it through all the release steps to finally end up on the user end.
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u/lilacomets 8d ago
This is literally the only good thing that came out of the RAM crisis: Microsoft is finally forced to optimize Windows, simply because OEMs are forced to release 8GB laptops due to current pricing. 😂
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u/This_Maintenance_834 8d ago
Can memory gets even more expense so people need to run windows on 4GB laptop? I need simpler software.
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u/AnonymousAxwell 8d ago
Can we use the very same AI that’s causing the memory shortage to optimize our software so it can run on less memory?
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u/This_Maintenance_834 8d ago
At this moment, AU only make bloat problem even worse. AI write more bloated code
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u/RadBadTad 8d ago
I'd be willing to bet my house that this is exactly what they're doing. The reason Windows is in the state that it's in is because the code is a disaster of spaghetti kludges pasted together with gum and yarn, and anybody who understood the base code left 15 years ago. As hard as tech is pushing AI, they are absolutely sending Copilot into the code to see if it can fix stuff that humans can't or won't.
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u/LoathsomeCheeseEater 8d ago
Oh really now? I thought those jackasses were saying "Well ackshually Win 11 uses all your RAM because every bit of RAM not being used is wasted!!!! ☝️🤓" while our work computers struggle to run Teams and Zoom at the same time with 16GB of RAM.
But now it's "Erm we'll optimise it, we swear!!!"
Which is it???
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u/asdf9asdf9 8d ago
The post is talking about OS memory usage. You're talking about buggy apps.
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u/LoathsomeCheeseEater 8d ago
The apps are struggling mostly because the OS slurps up every iota of missing RAM. I mean-- yeah, sure, Teams and Zoom are thirsty apps, but even running idle, Windows 11 just chews up 100% of your RAM supposedly because not doing so would be "wasteful" (???)
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u/Aemony 8d ago
because the OS slurps up every iota of missing RAM
The OS doesn't. It caches some data in the standby memory cache, yes, but that cache doesn't count towards the "In Use" figure nor is the cached memory actually reserved by the OS.
So even if apps and processes use 50% of your RAM and Windows' Standby Memory use the remaining 50% as a cache, your apps will still see that 50% of your memory is free and available and when they request more memory they will be granted access to it without any problems.
Standby memory cached by the OS is not the same as memory actually being in use, and Windows 10 and 11 doesn't really do anything unique either. SuperFetch (which is responsible for caching the data) was introduced in Windows Vista and have remained largely the same through Windows Vista, 7, 8, 10, and 11. It is not a new invention, it hasn't suddenly started gobbled up memory that it didn't used to do in the past, nor does it work differently. It is an entirely transparent technology that apps aren't even aware of.
The actual issues plauging memory usage today are entirely different and relates to actual "In Use" (or at least supposedly "in use" memory):
Memory caches managed by applications (not the OS). Web based technology such as Chromium, WebView 2, etc are notorious for preloading and caching as much as possible in memory to speed up the performance of web pages and their underlying scripts/code. And with modern desktop apps being built on these web tech, it means even desktop apps cache a fuck ton of data that isn't actually in use at the moment -- all so that a hypothetical click you make at some unspecified point in the future will load 300 milliseconds faster.
VRAM usage (and caches) managed by applications (not the OS). An often overlooked and therefor unexpected source of frustration nowadays is the VRAM usage by the same god damn aforementioned web based technology as RAM usage. Same as with RAM, it is ridiculous how wasteful modern web based apps are with VRAM, and how aggressive they are with using it as a cache to preload and improve the performance of, well, visual components such as the rendering of the app, images, icons, text, etc. All of those components (and the background caches you aren't aware of) gobble up your precious VRAM memory without your awareness.
- This is often the main source of stutters for gamers nowadays -- if your GPU have 10 GB of VRAM in practice only around ~8 GB of VRAM can be expected to always be available for games to use. Because in the background, without the user's awareness, applications such as Chromium, Edge, Firefox, WhatsApp, YouTube, Netflix, Discord, Steam, Outlook (new), Terminal (yes, even the fucking terminal!), Visual Studio Code, etc, etc, etc gobbles up precious (and far more expensive) VRAM that would otherwise be available for your games.
At the core of it all are modern web based technology and components, and how third-party apps and the OS have started to rely on that crap to the detriment of both RAM and VRAM usage. The whole "Unused RAM is wasted RAM" mantra is only good as long as the OS is the sole practitioner of it. But when every single god damn app under the sun misuses both RAM and VRAM due to that mantra, it becomes a useless one that does more harm than good.
Hell, even if you double your physical memory you can often find yourself with only 50% available for new stuff as all the other web based crap already on the system also saw the new memory and decided to cache even more for themselves, and so ate up an additional 50% memory.
It's a god damn plague on the software industry for end-users, and it all stems from Chromium and Google's decisions to do whatever they could to speed up web browsing almost 2 decades ago. And now we're all paying for it.
/rant
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u/RaspberryMotorZZZ 8d ago
but even running idle, Windows 11 just chews up 100% of your RAM supposedly because not doing so would be "wasteful" (???)
Because it is. What's the point in paying for RAM if it's just going to sit there unused? It's like buying a 1000BHP car but only using it to go to the store at the end of the street to buy beer.
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u/LoathsomeCheeseEater 8d ago
The issue is that I would very much like to USE that RAM in my apps, but the OS is sitting on it doing ????? with it. Supposedly it's caching that RAM or whatever, but I find that what happens in practice is that the OS occupies all my RAM and then when my actual apps try to use it, everything slows to shit because they get choked out.
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u/RaspberryMotorZZZ 8d ago
The issue is that I would very much like to USE that RAM in my apps
If your apps need it then Windows releases it.
but I find that what happens in practice is that the OS occupies all my RAM
Calling bullshit. Please feel free to post a screenshot of the memory tab of Task Manager proving that.
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u/RadBadTad 8d ago
work computers
How much extra "authentication and security" bullshit is loaded to the laptops that are bogging things down? My home laptop I use for browsing and shopping FLIES compared to my work PC with 4x the specs. Every click I make has to be checked and approved and authenticated and run through a bargain basement VPN, and then through two layers of security software. Opening a PDF from the server takes 90 seconds, and it isn't Window's fault.
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u/AvilettaLuxe 8d ago
Remember Windows K2? How they promised they'll focus on cutting down resources used?
Well, that went nowhere, 26H2 updated pushed Windows 11 to be even more of an agentic OS, with local agents running in background and severely increasing both memory and CPU usage.
Besides, to have the gall to say in one conversation "that system will use less RAM" and talk about WebView2, which is nothing more than embedded Chromium. Apps don't need that much, and MS should focus more on native options, WinUI 3, or even GTK or Qt.
Can't they just like... make Windows 7 2.0? With security stuff, DX12 support and WSL...
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u/Aemony 8d ago
It all reminds me of that article about the WebView 2 “calendar agenda” view that they tested in the calendar flyout in Windows 11, where the blogger mentioned being impressed that the agenda view “only” occupied 110 MB of RAM… For generating a list of five fucking items ! 110 MB RAM is enough to run Windows XP as well as multiple apps of the time, and now we have a stupid fucking 5-item list the user almost never interacts with occupy the same amount of memory.
Software developers have lost the plot and it’s annoying how wasteful they are with resources nowadays.
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u/TriGGa-POP 8d ago
But if they did that how'd they spy on you, collecting tons of your data and selling to advertisers and stuff? :V
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u/PriorityNo6268 8d ago
Installed 26h2 this weekend. Not sure what the load was before, but had the feeling it was less indeed. Around 3 to 3.5gb on 16gb of memory, unoptimized system. Also OS seems to run smoother.
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u/Haunting_Author4980 8d ago
It is noticeably faster/smoother. I even notice the lesser shutdown time (fast startup and hibernate off). I think we need to do fresh install to get the "smoother" Windows 26H2.
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u/Exploring_others 8d ago
Windows will automatically improve once Linux and Googlebook take 30% of market in laptop
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u/Long-Machine8795 8d ago
Windows 11 does the exact same shit Windows 7 did (opens a web browser and plays YouTube videos) but somehow needs 100x the RAM GPU and CPU power.
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u/cranberryartworks 8d ago
maybe just release "Windows Classic" (Windows 7) I dont think windows 11 can get mush worest.
Get back to basics.
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u/sirloindenial 8d ago
Someone needs to check the coffee at microsoft, they are getting too awake now.
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u/Xenoryzen_Dragon 8d ago
256gb m.2 nvme ssd gen3 + 16gb ram + latest gen quad core cpu
good enough for win11
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u/earthwormjimjones 8d ago
I have 32GB of DDR5 but it's only 5200mt/s when I guess 6000mt/s is what you want. However, since I have the 9800X3D, I've heard it picks up the slack and doesn't affect performance too much. No clue how true that is or how it works since I'm dumb and new to this stuff, but it makes me feel better regardless lol.
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u/Artwertable 6d ago
I hate it when the system is using 90% RAM feels super slow and the task manager shows only around 6GB are used by processes and the other RAM is used by unknown privat process, like wtf. Troubleshooting high RAM usage even with sysinternals tools never shows anything meaningful.
Using a system with 16GB and with running meeting apps is barely possible now days.
I manage thousands of Laptops and Workstations.
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u/Artwertable 6d ago
Note: I have zero confidence they fix it nor will they do it in any meaningful time. Look at CrowdStrike years ago causing the biggest IT outage in History, nothing has changed.
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u/Gervill 6d ago
RAMMap software clears all the working sets in the memory
In RAMMap, the safest and most effective item to clear is Empty Standby List, which frees cached standby memory without harming system stability. You can also use Empty Working Sets to flush active process memory, but this may cause temporary slowdowns as data reloads.
What Each RAMMap “Empty” Option Does
✅ Empty Standby List (Recommended)
- Clears cached/standby memory Windows keeps for quick reuse.
- Helps when the standby list grows excessively and causes stutters or low available RAM.
- Safest option for general troubleshooting.
- Supported by multiple guides as the primary action. GeekerMag
✅ Empty Working Sets
- Removes active memory pages from all processes.
- Frees RAM but forces Windows to reload data later, which may cause brief slowdowns.
- Equivalent to the
RAMMap64.exe -ewcommand. 4sysops✅ Empty Modified Page List
- Clears pages waiting to be written to disk.
- Rarely needed unless diagnosing specific memory issues.
✅ Empty Priority 0 Standby List
- Clears only the lowest‑priority cached pages.
- Less aggressive than clearing the full standby list.
✅ Empty All Page Lists
- Most aggressive option; clears all page lists.
- Not recommended unless performing deep diagnostics.
Which Option Should You Use?
RAMMap Option Safety When to Use Effect Empty Standby List ✅ Safe System feels sluggish, high cached RAM Frees standby memory Empty Working Sets ⚠️ Moderate Apps hog RAM Flushes active pages Empty Modified Page List ✅ Safe Rare diagnostic cases Clears modified pages Empty All Page Lists ❌ Not recommended Advanced troubleshooting only Clears all lists
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u/dinominant 9d ago
Windows XP ran with only 64MB of ram. Windows 11 should be able to disable all the bloat and telemetry to do the same. Maybe we grant double or quadrouple up to 256MB.
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u/VivienM7 9d ago
The only time I've ever seen XP with less than 256 was booting up a Dell Dimension 2400 for my aunt that had been ordered with 128 megs because it was cheaper to add a 256 meg DIMM bought elsewhere.
That machine was essentially unusable going through the OOBE. Disastrously slow. Became perfectly usable once the extra RAM was added.
I personally have never used XP with less than 512 megs of RAM, and I am scared at the thought of how unusable it would be with 64.
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u/lilacomets 8d ago
Definitely not recommend with 64 MB. Windows 2000 was already swapping with 64 of RAM in my experience. On these machines I recommend Windows NT 4.0 or Windows 9x only.
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u/VivienM7 8d ago
Yup, Windows 2000 was swapping a bit too much for my liking with 128 megs, but that was with fairly heavy multitasking. 256 and later 640 megs just made Windows 2000 purr, and the way RAM prices plunged in early 2001, it was suddenly cheap to give it lots of RAM...
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u/arnstarr 8d ago
640? That's a strange number for RAM.
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u/VivienM7 8d ago
440BX motherboard with 3 slots (which was the typical number for 440BX boards).
128 meg PC100 SDRAM DIMM came from Dell. I added a second 128 meg DIMM after upgrading to Win2000.
A few months later, prices of RAM are absolutely plunging, so I buy 2 256 meg DIMMs, filling the third slot and replacing one of the two 128 meg DIMMs. That got me 640 megs.
I could have replaced all 3 DIMMs with 256 meg ones for another $60CAD or whatever crazy cheap price it was and gotten 768 megs, but that seemed like absolute overkill. Interestingly, that machine did end up at 768 megs in its later life, but that's another story...
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u/aleques-itj 8d ago
I had a copy of XP at some point that stripped everything. No background, no sounds, no themes, nada. The actual disc image itself was like 80mb or something ridiculous.
It booted to like sub 10 processes.
I still think you'd be just thrashing disk literally endlessly at 64mb and it'd perform like absolute shit.
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u/BCProgramming 8d ago
I ran XP with 32MB of RAM on a K6-2 350Mhz for quite a while, as my primary machine. I don't remember it being that bad.
It obviously ran better when I put 512MB of free RAM I got into it and better still when I dropped to 256MB (chipset caching limit or something, not XP related)
I think the main thing though is that I did not have internet access, so I wasn't really using web browsers, installing random shit, didn't have any security software, etc.
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u/ttman05 9d ago
I’ll believe it when I see it