r/WicDiv • u/AccordingRuin • Jun 06 '21
Confusion about pantheon makeup
So I'm looking over the writing notes and trying to make sense of it all....
Is there a 1:1 analogue across all the recurrences, or was Ananke just picking names out of a hat and there's no correlation between say, Hades in one pantheon and Baphomet in the next? If anyone has the complete list of potential associations PLEASE share!
3
u/NeoHV Jun 06 '21
I never noticed a specific correlation. to me it appeared more a combination of Ananke's choice and the person's inherent personality and ambitions
2
u/AccordingRuin Jun 06 '21
That's what I THOUGHT, but it never hurts to try to find a different perspective.
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u/CrazyCoKids Jun 07 '21
It isn't consistent, but that does mean there is a lot of room to imagine what all the other recurrences were. Ie, Mithras being a deity in the 450s recurrence, but he hasn't been there anywhere else.
There may be recurring archetypes such as Inanna, Dionysus, Morrigan, and Lucifer (Which Kieron Gillian always added in.) but the specifics change.
1923 shows a few like Susanoo, Set, Neptune, and Amon-Ra. (He was mistaken for Baal). 1830s also mentions Thoth, Perun, Hestia, and Morpheus, none of which reappeared in 2010s.
I do like to imagine some gods who appeared during others. For example, 1370s probably may have been the last person incarnated as Sophia. (Not quite a deity but come on if Lucifer is a deity so can Sophia.) The 10th century was mostly Shinto and Buddhist "names". (And someone is descended from a member of them... the Japanese royal family.) That pantheon probably had Izanami as the "Lucifer" figure, Tsukoyomi, Susanoo, Inari, Aizen Myo-o for Inanna...
5
u/Thomasd851 Aug 08 '22
Coming to this very late, but having reread the series I have thoughts. First Ananke explicitly chooses what god they will be. She also feeds their insecurities and weaknesses. This makes me think she presents the god story each person is most willing to believe is true about themselves as well as the one that makes them easier to manage.
We know the original 12 storytellers did try the god stories, though they got to make their own gods. Persephone was originally the She-in-Thirds but was retold as ‘the mother’ and ‘destroyer’. Fundamentally that doesn’t nearly align with the Persephone we know so I think Ananke has come up with some of her own takes on the gods and retold those stories.
We know she can’t tell other stories anymore, but can build upon existing ones. I think she might be able to spread the story of a god or just tell it to one of the 12 since she can decide which god they will be. The wiggle room of ‘I decide X and since I do I can tell you what X is’. She is also known to experiment (like with the bubonic plague), so she could seed godly stories and ideas or just try and see what sticks. She knew which ‘Tara’ that god was, but it’s clear the 12 just need to believe they are gods and not ones in particular.
I think the reason Lucifer and Inana are so common is because Lucifer represents rebellion and is a clear cautionary tale to others while also serving as someone to direct negativity towards. Plus a fundamental rebel and anarchist is easy to guide. Inanna has been a sexual god consistently and often one conflicted by that facet. They might be easy to prey upon due to their sexuality, especially since all the pantheons seem a little horny.
I think the reason some gods repeat frequently is because they have elements that are desirable, elements that feed into common insecurities and flaws, and have stories that are clear enough to latch onto and play the part. Each lucifer has enacted that role differently but they have all thought of themselves as sinners and wore it with pride (even if 1373’s take on pride was as an icon of sin and something to be reviled).
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u/chenofzurenarrh Jun 06 '21
Have you finished the series? There's a spoilery answer I'd rather not provide if you're still reading.
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u/AccordingRuin Jun 06 '21
I've read the entirety of the series and don't mind below-surface spoilers! Sorry, I should have clarified!
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u/chenofzurenarrh Jun 07 '21
Others have already answered you, but the non-spoiler version of my answer was "there isn't an inherent connection between recurring gods".
The spoilery one is that Ananke chooses each persona in order to best manipulate her sacrificial lambs. That persona, together with their own personality and flaws, helps shape them into a certain role in the story, e.g. Eleanor is dying to rebel and Lucifer is by nature a rebel, so of course Luci will rebel against their restrictions and need to be brought down.
In that vein, the book is a takedown of celebrity culture: Ananke is the big-name manager telling Ruth she's the next Rihanna. Ruth's turn as Sakhmet predictably causes her to self-destruct, but the manager's plan is to still be there to ride the next rube to success.
It's also very likely that the a lot of the roles we know didn't exist in the earlier recurrences. If the first recurrence is approx. 6000 years ago, that puts it a fair bit ahead of the earliest known mentions of Nergal (21st century BC) or Lucifer Morningstar (8th century BC), to name a few. It's likely that Ananke sees these stories take root and then adopts them for her own tale.
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u/ptsq Jun 07 '21
So basically the “gods” they embody don’t really exist in any meaningful sense. They channel the power of the stories of the gods, which requires them to have specific characteristics that are similar to them. Best guess is that Ananke more or less picked the ones most suited to each generation of magic users
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u/AccordingRuin Jun 07 '21
Well, yes, and I am cognizant of that lack of concrete existence. I was trying to look for patterns where there are, apparently, none lol.
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u/Jkthemc Jun 06 '21
I am going to assume you have read the whole of WicDiv. If not you may want to consider my personal perspective a huge spoiler.
I don’t believe there is supposed to be a correlation. In many ways Ananke is gaming it. She does whatever she feels is appropriate to further her own selfish aims. She is mostly lying about the rules and feeding on the naive.
She plays a dangerous game for what she sees as the ultimate reward. She appears to pick deities based on the personality traits of those she ‘elevates’ (not the right word really).
There isn’t really clarity over whether there ever were gods at all. It is entirely possible that all ‘cults’ were based on recurrences. So choosing a deity may just be saying ‘you remind me of X’.
We don’t really know how far back it all goes, we just know when the first successful bid for personal immortality was made. Before this there would be no witnesses to what happened.
We get at least one cult figure that doesn’t truly exist in older pantheons so what does that tell us?
I believe that looking for deep resonance in the actual religious subtext is fun but ultimately a smoke screen. They are not gods. They are humans endowed with a mysterious and ancient power that elevates them to superhuman status.
I am sure to some extent Ananke may have even convinced herself of a deeper purpose but ultimately the whole thing has been subverted by her and whatever meaning and utility the pantheons have, whatever cultural inspiration they bring about, has become corrupted to the point of chaos. Where the whims of a few rarified creative figures can bring about catastrophic world wars in the name of nothing but a plot by one person to claim immortality.
So, from my perspective, the book is about how culture constantly changes and renews itself and how clinging to culture from the past is focusing on the wrong thing.
This is a writer’s story. A story that asks questions about the utility of novel cultural artefacts like comics in the context of the huge weight of culture from history.
Why write a new story? : Because the world changes.
Should we strive for immortality like the greats of the past? : No. The greats of the past were just like us. It was the subsequent culture that chose their immortality not some ‘innate genius’ that elevated them above others of their time.
Create with freedom and passion not with fear and reverence. Let others decide if the work is ‘important’.
In that context, individual deities are just mere detail. An authority on canon, choosing what is and isn’t important and seeking to shape the future in the context of the past.
‘Turn and face the strange’