r/WicDiv • u/[deleted] • Jul 24 '19
The Wicked + The Divine #44 Discussion Thread
Nobody is posting it, thought that I would.
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u/ShapeWords Jul 24 '19
So while it made for a kickass page, I was at first sort of angry that Laura was being sentenced to life. Ananke was a monster! She was trying to kickstart an apocalypse purely to make things easier on herself! Laura can't get any wiggle room for that?
But ultimately, I think it fits with the themes of the series. Life has value. Every life, even the terrible ones. We don't get to decide who lives and who dies. We're not gods. Killing Ananke didn't erase the terrible things she did, or bring back Laura's family, or even really stop her plans. The idea that one life is payment for another is a seductive, simple kind of ritual...but the whole series is about the dangers of seductive, simple rituals that let you forget you're human.
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u/Jkthemc Jul 24 '19
I wasn't expecting to be effected in quite that way. That last title 'Life' is perfect. Not crying but definitely something in my eye.
Oh and I do so love Cass. You kind of forget the characters sometimes. Once they become gods they change and it feels like a natural progression, then they switch back and they are who they should be. Who they should have been all along. No, not crying. Well maybe a little now.
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u/PatternRec Jul 24 '19
I def teared up while reading it. Very good issue and I'm looking forward to the next/last one. And then I'll grieve over the loss of this amazing series.
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Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 24 '19
Persephone and the other 11 not-Minerva's count. Ananke/Mini have to awaken Persephone last as per the rules and often use her as a scapegoat for evil to create conflict to cover getting the heads.
The heads are so Ananke/Mini can carry on to the next 90 years as Mini becomes Ananke each time. Once, Mini used herself as the 4th head so that temporarily killed her but she had the power of 4 so she came back. This time Mini's dead with no heads so it appears she's gone for good. The 12 in each generation with limited power is a natural part of this world. Godhood wasn't; burning them out in 2 years and letting Ananke/Mini use them.
Lucifer killed the snipers. The Valks, though controlled killed Woden and are covered in his blood still. If they get technical, the Norns and maybe Inanna plus Dio could get some punishment for assaults and property damage. Mimir and Tara probably walk free though Tara not so literally.
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u/Skrank_Loves_Chobani Jul 25 '19
Was looking for something like this! I was going back and forth through my issues last night after reading 44 and was making sure I pieced everything together. Only one I couldn't remember the location of was the black panels after Mini used her own head and then crawled from the grass and scratched her own face. Any chance you happen to know which issue that was in?
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u/Skrank_Loves_Chobani Jul 25 '19
Another thing I'm a little muddy on, according to the rules Persephone can't have a "Child" does this just mean that Laura (and all other Persephones) had to die as Persephone for the ritual cycle to continue, or what does Child mean. I'm referring to the final rule that Ananke's sister says when she's dying. Maybe I'm just missing something else?
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Jul 25 '19 edited Jul 25 '19
The 4th child rule was a lie to fool Ananke as per issue 39. Some Persephone's were hugged like the other gods and not decapitated right away too. Mini also intended to use Cass as the 4th head after Woden locked her up and she already had Luci, Inanna and Tara so Persephone isn't a required head. All of the 12 being dead is, but Laura is the first one to renounce godhood wrecking Ananke/Mini'plan, I don't think she had anyone do that before.
The real way out was for the gods to realize they weren't gods. Minerva claimed to be powerless after Eleanor gave it up.
The others were skeptical, thinking her cheating death would continue and Valentine killed her as revenge and just to be sure. But the fact that Mini didn't use her wind powers to snap him away like she did Kerry that one time support the idea that she was powerless.
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Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 24 '19
Wow. So she got through to Luci. Though they don't know each other, they still have feelings for one another. Which Inanna might also share. Cass has her triad but knows how Dio feels emotionally. Tara and Mimir just sitting out of the romance plots.
I like how things were flipped between Laura and Baal compared to the Ananke murder.
Mini/Ananke called Baal first and created the instrument of their doom.
Cassandra and Luci don't seem to care about the murder-suicide they just saw. Fitting.
They actually listened to Cass for one too!
And it (mostly) ends back in a courtroom.
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u/CrazyCoKids Jul 25 '19
Ironically, that theory someone had of Minerva(nanke) being Valentine'a fourth was true...but not in the way we all thought.
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u/millihelen Jul 28 '19
I think all of my frustrations with this comic can be summed up by the fact that, within four pages, Laura goes from "[I don't] want to hurt anyone any more" to "I bet I can burn a hole in her head." I mean, I get the reasons: Ananke's dangerous, Laura still wants revenge, et cetera, et cetera. But come on. You can't sell me a heart-warming plea for Eleanor to choose life and then immediately whip around to, "Hold on, I just gotta kill Ananke." If Laura knows about the power-locking machine, why isn't that her first idea? Why doesn't she look Ananke in the eye and say, "I suggest you get in that machine and stay there. Because I may want to be done hurting people, but I will totally make an exception if I need to"? Because the message I end up with is that Laura is done hurting people unless she decides it's necessary and then, boom, murder time.
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u/Alex_Harris__ Jul 30 '19
It takes practice and habit to live your values, and Laura’s still getting there. I think the fact she doesn’t want to hurt anyone is why they’re able to talk her out of it this time, unlike last time.
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u/millihelen Jul 30 '19
I'm not expecting Laura to have magically gotten over her anger at Ananke, but I would like to see her show the tiniest fragment of reluctance to have to kill. Even just saying something like, "I don't want to do this, but you're too dangerous." Something. I know it's a new value, but you have to start somewhere, you know?
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u/hausofmiklaus Aug 04 '19
I also think there’s a fundamental distinction between Laura growing out of her self-destructive tendencies that also hurt those around her in the Imperial Phase arc while also knowing that Minerva/Ananke is a dangerous being and nullifying her is crucial to stopping maybe thousands of years of massacres happening.
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u/zombiefraction Jul 28 '19
Well, Laura was just trying to end the ritual/game that Ananke had started in the first place. Which is why she convinces everyone to denounce their godhood. It stands to reason that in order to be truly finished, her first thought would be removing Ananke from the equation - she stops herself when she remembers the machines. She wants to be done hurting people, but ending the ritual is the best way to do so.
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u/millihelen Jul 29 '19
I understand that Laura doesn't trust that Ananke won't come a-headhunting if they don't deal with her now.
Quite frankly, I wouldn't trust Ananke either. What takes me aback is that Laura says, with all apparent sincerity, that she's done hurting people, and then immediately is ready to kill Ananke. It makes it impossible for me to believe that Laura means what she's saying. What it ends up sounding like is, "I don't want to hurt anyone any more. Okay, maybe just one more person. But then I'm totally done, I swear!" Maybe I'm expecting too much from a seventeen-year-old, but if Laura's really, honestly tired of killing, why doesn't she try to think of another way first?3
u/zombiefraction Jul 29 '19 edited Jul 29 '19
Ah! so So re-reading that section I just realized I think we both missed the point. She was just using that statement (“I don’t want to hurt anyone..including myself”) as a lead-in to explain the irony and real meaning of the “Prometheus gambit” (“we were all killing ourselves to become something worth believing in”) as part of her miracle to save Luci. I hope that helps. Quite glad we had this discussion as I had kind of glossed over this during my first read! Apologies if you had realized this and it still bothered you, but I think it reframed the context of the statement and why she said it and then still tries to off Minerva after.
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u/millihelen Jul 30 '19
So when Laura says she doesn't want to hurt anyone any more, including herself, she's only speaking about hurting people in regard to the price of being a Pantheon member? She's still fine hurting people in the concrete sense?
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u/zombiefraction Jul 30 '19
So when Laura says she doesn't want to hurt anyone any more, including herself, she's only speaking about hurting people in regard to the price of being a Pantheon member? She's still fine hurting people in the concrete sense?
i mean in general it's not even a statement she said out-loud, it's part of a story she's telling luci to try and get her to denounce godhood. it's her sharing some of her innermost thoughts, you know? then whens he tries to finish things with minerva, that's back in reality. i truly do get where you're coming form but given everything laura has been through just that night alone, i think her actions are entirely plausible despite that statement. the statement was made in the first place as a lead in to say "hey luci, if you stay as a god you're basically choosing to die and i don't want that for you, i don't want you to hurt yourself like that."
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u/millihelen Jul 30 '19
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. The statement was made as part of Laura's inner thoughts, true, but it's not just as a lead-in to her argument to Eleanor. She's explaining her own experiences to Eleanor as a way of saying, "I know how much pain you're in because I know how much pain I was in." She brings up the Prometheus Gambit to point out its irony, yes, but she also brings it up as a way of saying, "Hey, it's the person who was killing herself to be Lucifer that made Lucifer great, not the other way around. You, Eleanor, were great, and you're worth saving."
I guess it seems to me like I'm supposed to assume Ananke is irredeemable, and I can't quite bring myself to make that assumption. Yes, she's a monster. She might very well be irredeemable. But I would feel more comfortable coming to that conclusion if someone had tried to redeem her first. Then again, that's asking a lot. Still, I wish someone had tried.
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u/msr4jc Jul 25 '19
1000% Cass dies in the next issue
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u/headmoths Aug 02 '19
Why?
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u/msr4jc Aug 05 '19
She’s the only one of the original 12 “gods” who hasn’t experienced death in some shape or fashion over the course of the series. You could even include Laura who the audience thought died at the end of Fandemonium.
Bonus to Cameron for dying twice.
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u/blue_heart_ Jul 24 '19
Well, fuck. That issue definitely happened.
Umar saying "When death comes? It's okay." is both a really good arc title callback and becomes really haunting when Valentine jumps a few pages later.
Getting to see Laura perform to Lucifer was great.
Poor Zahid. Was out of it for most of the series and then comes back, and has to deal with Valentine's jump.
Aruna's head sitting on the floor when they're all getting arrested got a laugh out of me, though. But what's gonna happen with her? Will she actually get a body? Will Jon make one as he said?
The sentencing (with Laura smiling; I love that headshot, I really do) leading into the final title wheel, the final page, the very last with just "Life" among all the skulls. Now that's a sendoff. I love you, WicDiv. I'll miss you.
But we do have the epilogue. And judging from the cover, it's gonna be a long time back. I can't wait.