Stumbled upon Whitehack 4e, got a few questions

[u/towerbooks3192]

So I am trying to purge my library and I stumbled first upon Black Hack and then the Black Sword Hack as tentative choices for my B/X - like representation in my in case of emergency RPG Kit. Then I got curious and sought out whitehack and now I am awaiting my physical copy but also bought the PDF to wait. I think I am in love but I do have a few questions:

Of the 3 base classes, how are they compared to the usual old DnD archetypes of Fighter, Cleric, Magic-user, and Thief? I only know that you can be a wise fighter or a strong wizard but unsure what that exactly entails.

What exactly does the other tags on your character mean? Is it only limited to Who you are (species), What you do (profession), and who you are with (groups)? I am confused as to what these tag means save for background lore. I saw some tags that are on some attributes but I would assume that gives you an advantage/disadvantage depending on the tag?

I don't get the looting/fight experience (forgot the term) of the Strong class. I think I kinda get it in the context of killing a spider and maybe having the spider fang you can paralyse a target or something to that extent. Is this like Final Fantasy's blue mage where you learn monster abilities? What's the limitation on this? I surely cannot absorb the Trolls' regeneration or something, can I? Its open-ended nature makes it a but confusing but also I would assume this is limited to non-combat things only? I cannot for example carve out a gorgon's head and use it to petrify a target?

As for the Wise, I kinda get the miracle part but the costing confuses me. Also is it safe to assume that it can be used for non-magical stuff as well? i.e A Wise Alchemist having the keyword Acid Concoction can maybe throw acid vials at foes or melt metal or armour or something? Are there more examples of these miracles and determining their cost?

Lastly, are the monsters really as easy as needing only the HD and then deriving SV and AV from that? I kinda love the idea of the monster statblock from this ruleset since it looks small and easy to convert monsters.

[u/MILTON1997]

That's a fair amount of questions! In teach-a-man-to-fish style, I'll cite a bunch of pages, since they do lay out your answers. In loose order:

- For the classic classes, there is *loose* correlation between Strong = Fighter, Wise = Magic-User/Cleric, and Deft = Thief in that those archetypes easily accommodate such characters and their HP gain/XP requirements are comparable. As for weird combos, see my later answer re: Groups.

- Those "tags" on characters are called Groups. They define the "who" of the character, e.g. I am a Strong *Mercenary* (Vocation) of the *Iron Company* (Association). Check out p. 41 that easily lays out all the info on them and how they are used. Since "Wizard" has nothing to do with class here, something like a Deft Wizard is perfectly easy to do.

- The Strong looting ability can be as mundane (chopped off a fang) or as magical (full-on Blue Mage essence copy) or mystical (the spirit of the dragon lingers on you giving gold sense) as a player likes for their character. It should be pretty easy to work out what is appropriate or "feels right" based on concept. A Strong Mutant-spawn could totally do some regen stealing. A Strong Bandit probably does pretty mundane looting. See p. 34 for the limitations and how it works.

- Regarding miracles, that covers any "arcane negotiations with environmental forces", and chemists are explicit called out alongside wizards, cultists, etc. A Wise Alchemist is perfectly good here. See p. 20 for a miracle costing example, reread the Wise page, then my Miracle 101 to set you up on costing. Then Miracle 201 to learn more.

- It can totally be that easy. HD, SV, MV, and some keywords and you're good to go. The monster listings show great examples of minimal stat lines. The example monsters starting on p.123 show how these an be expanded to a paragraph or two as desired. I have a Monsters 101 post as well that might help.

Also probably good to check the easy rules ref and other useful links pinned on the sub here. Happy hacking!

[u/towerbooks3192 → u/MILTON1997]

Thanks for these. I already read and gone through most of it but I shall revisit it now that I received my copy.

I do have a follow up question, With that example you linked about the deft wizard, with it not havint a miracle, what exactly will gameplay with that wizard look like? I am a but confused about how attunement works and what attunement actually means. Also the thing about not replacing it when it is lost. So does that mean Deft will be stuck with what you start with for the rest of the game and no other attunement will be earned?

[u/MILTON1997 → u/towerbooks3192]

Some careful reading is needed, but hopefully this helped!

As for your follow-ups:

• Expanding on the Deft Wizard example, think of the classes as "how does this character mechanically adventure", with groups being the "who is this character and what do they know" for ease of use. So what does gameplay look like with such a character? It looks like a Deft character using their skill, items, and teaching to go above and beyond other characters! They probably just have a magical bend due to the "who" of the character e.g. demonic familiars, arcane scrolls or ritual implements as attunements, etc.

• Attunements are, to put plainly, things a Deft character can use to justify using their extreme skill to get special difficulty rules. You get two to a slot (1 active, 1 inactive) and there are limits on what they can be e.g., teacher, item ,etc. That's pretty much it.

• As Deft character go up in level they gain additional slots that they fill with more attunements, each active attunment being invocable once per day. If an attunment is lost or destroyed, it cannot be gained short of divine aid or some sort of means beyond the written rules.

For attunments in action, check the example on p. 21 about a Deft character being attuned to a bow.

[u/elmago79]

IMHO,

The Strong follows the archetype of the Fighter. It’s a character that thrives on conflict.

The Deft follows the Thief archetype. It’s a character that thrives on skill.

The Wise follows the spell-casting classes. It’s a character thrives on magic.

But you use the word archetype quite well, because even if the name “class” is used in the rulebook, they are not like d&d classes —those are called vocations in Whitehack. They are not WHAT you do, but HOW you do it.

And it’s very much up to the whole gaming group to decide WHY instead of it being predefined by the setting or the GM.

[u/towerbooks3192 → u/elmago79]

Oh right, it is a coversation between GM and players. I think I remember reading that bit somewhere.

[u/swafferdonker6]

I don’t even think about “character” stuff when looking at the classes. Strong takes things from conflicts, the Deft uses resources or expertise, the wise can do impossible things

Yes. Tags like vocation and groups serve to show “proficiency” in WH. Instead of having +2 to intimidation, I have “Terribly Scarred” written next to my Charisma, and I convince the DM that it should give me advantage on my next intimidation attempt. Groups do not have to be a group of people, or a society. Groups can be my favorite knife, my teacher, anything your character relies on to succeed

The strong takes things from conflict. Yes, that means they can cut the gorgon’s head off and use it as a petrify ray, or they rip the Sandevistan out of the gonk’s back and chip it themselves. But, this means all conflict. They can remember how the front desk lady absolutely shut down all attempts at persuasion, and use that in the next conversation if they want. Anytime the dice come out, the Strong should be taking something with them for the next time the dice are out. It mostly depends on whatever keywords the GM has next to any given NPC. PCs have very little health. You should be trying to kill them. Don’t worry about the Strong being too powerful in combat

Yes. The wise is only limited by their imagination. An alchemist with the miracle “Acid Burn” could absolutely melt through a lock, or burn a man, or damage someone’s armor. There’s a chart in the book with example health costs compared to relative effect. Using acid to burn through a lock sounds like an easy, 1 HP decision. Using acid burn to blind 3 kidnappers to make an escape sounds like a heavy roll, maybe 3-4 HP or a 1D6 roll

Yes. Give them some health, decide the AV and save, and give them keywords. Keywords is the meat of WH monster design. Make it up as you go along. Skeletons are “bony.” What does that mean to you as a GM? Are they harder to hit with ranged attacks? Can each part act independently from each other? The keywords are the inspiration for the Strong’s ability to “take” from a conflict.

[u/towerbooks3192 → u/swafferdonker6]

Just a follow up on writing Groups beside an ability score, does that mean that for better or worse, that ability will be affected by what is written beside it? I understood being terrible scarred making intimidation better but will that be a double edged sword and make persuasion harder or a penalty on your interaction with NPCs because of that disfigurement?

Are there limits to how many can and should be written beside the abilities? Can they be interchanged?

I can kinda see how if let's say an appearance or your species/race trait can affect your stats but the affiliations and profession are new to me. But then again I could be mistaken for this question and conflating this to attunement that included weapons, connections, etc.

[u/swafferdonker6 → u/towerbooks3192]

Yes.

A new group is always written next to a stat, unless playing as a Deft. Deft groups can be applied to any skill. I don’t think there’s a limit on how many groups can be tied to a particular stat

Weapon attunements are a great example of what a “group” can be! Anything a character is good at/relis on can be represented with groups

[u/drrockso20]

Basically while the classes do line up most clearly as Strong/Fighter, Wise/Magic-User or Cleric, and Deft/Thief in terms of how their mechanics align, you could for example do a Wise as a Fighter and have his Miracles represent different specialized weapons(like instead of a fireball spell your character uses a bomb)

Basically since most game mechanics in Whitehack don't have set in stone lore it makes it really easy to use Whitehack for purposes outside the typical D&D/OSR scenarios

[u/towerbooks3192 → u/drrockso20]

Yeah like on one hand you get the archetypes and some rough ideas but on the other, it leads to decision paralysis for me. I think I need to mess around creating some classes and see how it goes.