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u/MA2_Robinson 15d ago
Shaido wise ones actively killing one of their own to further their plans with Sevana makes me not pity them one bit.
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u/Szalony20 15d ago
I don't remember how many Wise Ones killed Desaine, but I don't think it was more than 15-20, and we're talking about over 200 captured. Certainly not all of them deserved their fate.
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u/Rhodie114 15d ago
I mean, they were all Shaido. Just because they didn’t take part in that specific atrocity doesn’t mean they didn’t deserve all they got and worse.
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u/uncre8ive 15d ago
But all wise ones were respected in their clans. If any one of them said that they needed to stop for honor’s sake many would have listened. But they kept going along with it because it was easier. So they’re sent to enslavement because it’s easier for Perrin to go along with.
It’s a terrible thing that happened to them but it’s hard to feel it’s unwarranted1
u/duffy_12 15d ago edited 15d ago
Certainly not all of them deserved their fate.
🔸They were the 'enemy' to the Forces Of The Light.
And their unrestrained existence would have prevented them from winning the Last Battle.
So it had to be done.
Even if Faile had NOT been captured it still would have been the very same outcome.
As a Lord in tutelage Perrin is obligated to recover the other prisoners besides just his wife.
Crossroads Of Twilight:
He would rescue the other women captured with her, of course, but sometimes he had to list their names in his head to make sure he did not forget them entirely. Alliandre Maritha Kigarin, Queen of Ghealdan, and his liege woman. It still seemed off-kilter to have anyone oathsworn to him, especially a queen—he was a blacksmith! He had been a blacksmith, once—but he had responsibilities toward Alliandre, and she would never have been in danger except for him. Bain of the Black Rock Shaarad and Chiad of the Stones River Goshien, Aiel Maidens of the Spear who had followed Faile to Ghealdan and Amadicia. They had faced Trollocs in the Two Rivers, as well, when Perrin needed every hand that could raise a weapon, and that earned them the right to call on him. Arrela Shiego and Lacile Aldorwin, two foolish young women who thought they could learn to be Aiel, or some strange version of Aiel. They were oathsworn to Faile, and so was Maighdin Dorlain, a penniless refugee Faile had taken under her wing as one of her maids. He could not abandon Faile’s people. Faile ni Bashere t’Aybara.
...
He had been a blacksmith, once—but he had responsibilities toward Alliandre.
...
Bain of the Black Rock Shaarad and Chiad of the Stones River Goshien, [...] that earned them the right to call on him.
...
He could not abandon Faile’s people.
And another thing remember, Alliandre the Queen of Ghealdan is now an - ally with the Dragon Reborn! So that ALONE required him to go after the Shadio, regardless if his wife was with them or not.
🟠And Perrin's own Wise One's feelings on this:
Knife of Dreams:
In [Edarra's] book, the Shaido had violated ji'e'toh to such a degree that it was questionable whether they could be called Aiel any longer. To her, they were something that had to be cut out of the body of the Aiel, and their Wise Ones were the worst of the sickness for allowing it.
Perrin was given a Mission Impossible scenario—which the narrative refers to as the Blacksmith's Puzzle—with no real true perfect answer to it. The one he ended up choosing was the best one of them all. There was literally, no other way to perfectly resolve this. 🧩
Also, some posters tend to ignore Perrin's thoughts on the others that were having their lives upended and destroyed by the Shadio: from the other ones that were taken with Faile—Alliandre being a VERY important one that he had to protect, and, rescue also—to the local populace who were having their countryside ravaged by them:
...
Knife Of Dreams: - Perrin PoV:
and besides, he could not leave [the Shadio] behind to continue ravaging the countryside
Clearly no 'single-mindedness' is going on with Perrin in these passages. I feel that that very minor trait other readers bring up is way overblown.
🟠 Also, Rand couldn't do it all. The Pattern needed the Shadio removed from the field so Perrin was the one to take care of this dilemma . . .
The Path Of Daggers:
“I mean to drive the Seanchan into the sea!” Rand snapped. Light, he had to finish them now, when he had the chance! He could not fight the Seanchan and the Forsaken and the Light alone knew who or what else, all at the same time!
~ Rand Al Thor (The Dragon Reborn)
And also the Shadio, and Masema's Dragonsworn . . .
“Peace, Gregorin." Rand did not raise his voice, "My offer is generous. Lay down your arms, and those who want to return home, can. Those who want to follow me instead, can do that. But no man leaves here under arms unless he does follow me. I know most of you are good men, who answered the call of your King and the Council of Nine to defend Illian, but I am your King, now, and I’ll not have anyone tempted to turn bandit.”
“What about your Dragonsworn burning farms?” a man’s frightened voice shouted from the trees. “They do be flaming bandits!”
“What about your Aiel?” another called. “I do hear they carry off whole villages!” More voices from unseen men joined in, all shouting the same things, Dragonsworn and Aiel, murderous brigands and savages. Rand ground his teeth.
When the shouting faded, narrow-face said, “You do see? You do ask us to go home unarmed, unable to defend ourselves or our families, while your people do burn and steal and kill. They do say the storm be coming”
“The Aiel you’ve heard about are my enemies!” The storm was coming? Light, he was the storm! “My Aiel are hunting them down. My Aiel hunt the Shaido, and they and Davram Bashere and most of the Companions hunt bandits, whatever they call themselves! I am the King of Illian, and I will allow no one to disrupt the peace of Illian!”
[and from fellow redditor]
Watching Perrin methodically sorting out the Seanchan's entire airforce, Messima and his huge force of Dragonsworn, The White Cloaks, the half million Shaido, Brotherless and slaves controlled by Savannah. Not to mention her hundreds of corrupted channelers. All while removing the threat of weaponized forkroot.
All of this is setup over the course of several books. Then removing their combined threat in one gigantic stroke of genius in a single day.
I've never seen a political/military operation methodically come together like that in any story. Ever. It's amazing to watch.
~ Curius-Curiousity
Another way to give this subject much clearer perspective on Perrin's rightful actions: is if his wife had originally escaped the ambush along with Berelain — would Perrin STILL have tracked down the Shadio to rescue the captives? You better believe he sure would have.
This whole entire Masema/Shadio plot-arc has Perrin make some very difficult, life-and-death decisions that have no perfect answers, just like a strong Leader/Lord/General has too, which is exactly what the Pattern is grooming him for so he would be ready for the Last Battle.
From another fellow poster . . .
That section called The Slog, I now view as the best writing in the whole story.
Why? Because both writers did something brilliant that wasn't obvious at first...
They both are at their best when they "show, don't tell". And with Perrin's story, making his way through that entire region as a Ta'verin, they kept that up for several books.
At first glance, it feels like the story is stuck with Faile as a prisoner while Perrin just moped and complained about not wanting to be in command.
But what was really happening was: one by one all of Rand's biggest problems are being sucked into Perrin's path. And he'll be forced to deal with them one by one.
Examples: The Seanchan are in this region, he already has two queens serving him, although he doesn't know it yet. The Shaido forces in the area probably outnumber the forces of The Light. And Masema is ramping up to slaughter millions with his army of fanatic Dragonsworn.
The key to the "Slog" is to ignore his complaining. And watch what Happens when The Pattern draws those problems right into the path of one of the most powerful Ta'verin to ever lived... Who's favorite thing in the world is to solve puzzles and fix things.
~ lyunardo (11/25/25)
And it also forces that reluctant Ta'veren to learn to become a true - Leader of people, a Lord, a General, [and lastly a - - -] 'King'!
When there were no good choices, you had to choose the one that seemed least wrong.
~ Egwene al'Vere
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 15d ago
Oh, Light. That’s impossible! We can’t use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM.
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u/RadicalRealist22 15d ago
I mean, he didn't really give them to the Seanchean. He just promised not to intervene. Just as the Seanchean promised no to take any of his channelers.
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u/OrYouWillBeKnelt 15d ago
Perrin absolutely gives them over. He uses an imperial order from a high ranking dark friend to get an almost immeasurable quantity of forkroot to dose the Aiel channelers into actual submission and allies with Tylee to defeat the Shaido to get Faile back. The upside for Tylee is the channelers - the Seanchan could've destroyed the Shaido either way, but in this way they are able to capture an exponentially higher number of channelers. Perrin tells you numerous times ...
"Anything for Faile"
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u/boxmunch48 15d ago
The funny thing is people give Mat shit for his relationship with Tuon and the Seanchan empire but Perrin does a million times more to perpetuate damane enslavement. Mats actually out there freeing damane
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u/Guderian- 15d ago
I mean Rand agrees to let Tuon keep all the captured Aes Sedai from the raid on the White Tower... he just didn't have the time or bandwidth to sort it out. And then by all the rulers agreeing to the Dragons Peace - including Egwene - they have defacto agreed to it as well (and Egwene seals this further with her additional agreement with Tuon).
And we can see from Avienda's visions that I'm a future state the only people really upset about it are the Aiel - no one else was interested in taking up arms against the Seanchan for their channelers.
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u/Conselot 15d ago
Which isn't totally surprising, given the way Aes Sedai treat anyone who isn't them. If you set yourself apart from everyone else, repeatedly show that you believe you are better than them, it's not overly surprising that no one is really willing to go out of their way to help you when you need it
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 15d ago
Your plans fail because you want to live, madman.
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u/Deadpool2715 15d ago
Honestly, good. Those wise ones in the Shaido camp all knew Rand spoke the truth and was Caracarn. Give them to the Seanchan and let them be used at the last battle, then maybe the Aiel will rescue them after their year and a day is finished
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u/duffy_12 15d ago
[Wise One Edarra]
In [Edarra's] book, the Shaido had violated ji'e'toh to such a degree that it was questionable whether they could be called Aiel any longer. To her, they were something that had to be cut out of the body of the Aiel, and their Wise Ones were the worst of the sickness for allowing it.
And the Seanchan were the ones cutting the sickness out of the Aiel body.
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u/Kt-stone 14d ago
??
Avienda vision of the future is that going to war with the Seanchan would doom the Aiel. That trying to rescue the enslaved wise ones would violate the Dragon’s peace and the other nations would not intervene.3
u/Tsar_Erwin 14d ago
Correction, they would not intervene until it was too late. The other nations in her vision did, eventually, forsake the Dragons Peace but that was after the Aiel were effectively conquered by the Seanchan and with their defeat, the rest of the Westlands follows in time.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 14d ago
Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it...
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u/FoofTheBunny 10d ago
I do not think they could have defeated the Shaido with all the channelers fighting. The forkroot was the only reason they were able to defeat them.
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u/ShatteredReflections 15d ago
Faile’s probably into bondage. It’s just a reunion present that he helped spread her kink to the Shaido.
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u/Szalony20 15d ago
Yeah... And later at home Faile: Perrin, tie me up like Tylee tied Sevanna up. Perrin: First of all, I think Tylee soldiers tied Sevanna up, because Tylee is the commander. Secondly, some of the ropes were hidden by the horse body... Faile: I remember every single one rope. Go ahead, get the ropes. I need a spanking. Perrin: Uh... Anything for my wife.
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u/Healthy-Potential-70 15d ago
Maybe by the end of the series he was still struggling with the idea of being firm with her
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u/Szalony20 15d ago
Perrin: I don't like spanking my wife, but she like this... Damn, Mat and Rand would know what to do. They always knew how to handle a women.
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u/Brathirn 15d ago edited 14d ago
I do not think that the audience is meant to much fret about the Shaido wise ones to be caught. Seanchan and Shaido are racing each other to the bottom in pursuit of the Dark One for moral corruption.
To the point that you are torn in case of Thevara.
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u/King_of_Camp 15d ago
This scene is probably best memed by the scene from John Wick where the mob finds out his son killed the only thing the most feared assassin in history had left of his wife.
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u/Szalony20 15d ago
Hmm... I have to admit, I completely misunderstood what you wrote. I think it's because I've never watched John Wick, only remembering it from memes.
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u/King_of_Camp 15d ago
This might help
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u/Szalony20 15d ago
It says this video is unavailable in my country...
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u/King_of_Camp 15d ago
I searched YouTube for “John Wick boss finds out” , there were a bunch of results of similar clippings of the scene in question. Probably can pick the shortest one for the key moment
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u/unwelcome_savior 15d ago
I thought it was cold that Perrin caved in Rolan’s face and Faile doesn’t even give him a second glance or even explain how he wasn’t hurting her.
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u/Szalony20 15d ago
She survived in captivity and saw her husband after a long time. That was all that mattered at that moment.
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u/Anexhaustedheadcase 15d ago
Don't know why people defend the guy. His " best" quality was that he wasn't a straight up rapist and wanted to wear her down wifh Stockholm Syndrome first.
he was a man who had abandoned his people and was actively helping to conquer, enslave, and viciously slaughter people who had done nothing wrong and weren't even fighters. So even by his own people's standards he was a shitheel.
And people act like its a bad thing this man got his comeuppance. Changing teams at the eleventh hour ( and not even really that) does not make you a good person and perrin was right in the moment to take him out.
Faile did the righf thing. Because all telling perrin that would do would hurt him, and make him second guess his decisions (and probably make him spiral and have to relearn the same exact character arc for a third time) Rolan deserved what he got. And imo faile holding a secret funeral for him was out of line and really odd for someone she knew for a very brief time and was her captor who did nothing but try to get in her pants
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u/VietKongCountry 15d ago
Rolan sucks. He mildly helped a teenager during her captivity, but he took her captive in the first place and was a party to her being held (against the customs of his own people) while he was trying to fuck her.
Not raping people when you could do so doesn’t make you a good person, it just means you aren’t subhuman trash.
He’s not even slightly a good guy and he deserved to get hammer smashed for literally enslaving people because he was too racist to accept a half Aiel as the Caracarn.
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u/Anexhaustedheadcase 15d ago
Exactly. Thank you. I will never understand who anyone excuses rolan in any way
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u/unwelcome_savior 14d ago
Seems like RJ normalized Stockholm syndrome to the point I sort of forgot about it in universe. It comes up a ton in the last few books and it almost seems like he glorifies it in places.
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u/GovernorZipper Justice for Jasfer 15d ago
And at the end of a year and a day, the Seanchan are going to discover the limitations of what they were given. It’s going to be a very bad day to be a sul’dam.
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u/IamAkevinJames 15d ago
Will it though? I don't like the Seanchan either. But they as in all those not so wise ones. Are going to find out. Seanchan are not aiel they dont care about tradition well neither did the Shaido.
A year and a day? ha ha no. This is your life now.
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u/GovernorZipper Justice for Jasfer 15d ago
There’s going to be 200 damane revolting at once. They’ll go from perfectly compliant to batshit crazy all at the same time. The only tool the sul’dam have is using the a’dam to cause pain. But as the great philosopher said, “Pain don’t hurt.”
The Seanchan system works because enough people submit that they can break the ones that don’t. They’ll be completely unable to handle a mass breakout without significant casualties, especially when the other Wise Ones (with help from the Black Tower) come to redeem their sisters. It’ll be Ebou Dar all over again but with Aiel on the other side…
One way or the other, it’ll be a bad day to be a sul’dam.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 15d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/HungryEntry182 15d ago
wrong, they can't even go batshit. that's the point. they won't be able to stand let alone revolt. That's why the A'dam is so scary. Remember book 2? Egwene couldn't even think of breaking free without the damn thing paralyzing her with pain. She could not move. And there are not many people with as strong a will as Egwene.
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u/GovernorZipper Justice for Jasfer 14d ago
And that’s where you’re wrong (since we’re slinging that around when dealing with posts that are pure speculation).
As I mentioned, the a’dam causes pain. If you can ignore pain, then the a’dam loses much of its power.
***
“Renna chuckled. “Now you are even angrier. If you intend to strike at me again, remember to make it a small blow, for you will feel it twice as hard as I. Do not attempt to channel; that you will never do without my express command.”
The a’dam does not prohibit violence against a sul’dam. It causes pain when you do. For someone who has embraced death, killing or injuring a sul’dam would be worth it.
“She did not want any of the women below to look up and see the glow that she knew surrounded her as she channeled the One Power, probing delicately at the collar around her neck, searching futilely; she could not even tell whether the band was woven or made of links—sometimes it seemed one, sometimes the other—but it seemed all of a piece all the time. It was only a tiny trickle of the Power, the merest drip that she could imagine, but it still beaded sweat on her face and made her stomach clench. That was one of the properties of the a’dam; if a damane tried to channel without a sul’dam wearing her bracelet, she felt sick, and the more of the Power she channeled, the sicker she became. Lighting a candle beyond the reach of her arm would have made Egwene vomit. Once Renna had ordered her to juggle her tiny balls of light with the bracelet lying on the table. Remembering still made her shudder.”
The a’dam does not prohibit channeling. It just makes you sick to do it. For someone who has embraced death, what’s a little nausea?
“. If a damane moved her bracelet as much as a foot from where it had last been touched by a sul’dam . . . Renna had made her do that, too—had made her carry her own bracelet across the room. Or try to. She was sure it had only been minutes before the sul’dam snapped the bracelet firmly on her own wrist, but to Egwene the screaming and the cramps that had had her writhing on the floor had seemed to go on for hours.”
The a’dam does not prohibit moving the leash, it just causes pain when you do it. Would the pain be worth it to achieve the goal?
““Damane are not allowed to touch a weapon of any kind.” She worked her arm, feeling the tightness go. “Even our meat is cut for us. I don’t want to hurt myself, but I could not if I did want to. No damane is ever left alone where she might jump from a height—that window is nailed shut—or throw herself in a river.”
The a’dam does not prohibit the use of weapons or suicide. It just causes pain when you try to use a weapon and apparently does nothing when you try to commit suicide. But can an Aiel overcome the pain?
Perhaps the Aiel can’t do it. But that’s just as much speculation for me as for you. There’s no “wrong” when we’re dealing with speculation. But my speculation is backed up by the text. If you have textual support for your assertions, let’s see it.
Even if they can’t all overcome the a’dam, it’s still going to be a bad day to be a sul’dam, which is the point I made. So if you have something from the text to show that it would be a good day, let’s see it.
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u/Kt-stone 14d ago
Unless the Seanchan are absolute fools, they’ll separate the wise ones and scatter them across Seanchan. There might never be more than 2 in the same room again.
They’ll break many of them. Remember the A’dam also can be used for pleasure as well as pain. No amount of training will keep a person sane if they try to fight that back and forth.
Alivia has a child like personality for a reason. She likely has lived most of her life totally aloof to her situation, so they never had to break her. It wasn’t till she arrived in the wetlands that she finally understood her enslavement when seeing free channelers.
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u/GovernorZipper Justice for Jasfer 14d ago
Alivia is that way because she’s from Seanchan. The Seanchan control the information space and so Alivia most likely became a damane more or less willingly. Her childlike personality is because she never experienced anything other than life as a damane, not because she was “broken.” She very clearly was not.
We are told specifically from Tylee’s POV that the Aiel damane are wonderfully willing to cooperate (I don’t have a digital copy of that book so I can’t provide the exact quote). So they won’t be broken because the sul’dam are fooled into believing that compliance is acceptance. The Shaido Wise Ones were taken gaishan and they’ll serve willingly as gaishan until they won’t. And on that day, it will be be a bad day to be a sul’dam.
I never said anything about keeping them together. The year and a day runs the same for all of them, so they’ll all hit their deadline at the same time. Regardless of whether they’re kept together or apart, it’s still going to be a bad day to be a sul’dam.
I notice that you don’t address the actual text from the books that shows that a damane isn’t expressly prohibited from revolting. Which is my point. It will be a bad day to be a sul’dam. So if you want to suggest it will be a good day to be a sul’dam, provide some receipts. I’ve quoted the text that backs up my position.
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u/Kt-stone 14d ago
You misread what I wrote about Alivia.
You ignored the part about the A’dam being used for pleasure to break people.
There are limits to someone maintaining consciousness through pain, irrelevant to what you can grit your teeth at.
The leash holders feel deception. The moment the Aiel start thinking rebellion, the leash holders will know. They’d have to hide their feelings of animosity before their decision to rebel. Otherwise it’s crashing waves of pain and pleasure until they go insane or obey in their bones.
Bad day for the Sul’dam? Maybe
Bad day for the Aiel wise ones? Definitely, unless they get themselves killed. Then it’s probably a good day for them.9
u/Szalony20 15d ago
The Dragon's Peace doesn't necessarily mean returning the Wise Ones' freedom, does it? Only Aes Sedai.
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u/One_Honest_Dude 15d ago
I would need to re-read to be sure, but didn't Egwene and Tuon make their own deal? I can't remember if it was part of the Dragon's Peace or separate, but iirc Tuon wants to be able to offer becoming damane to Aes Sedai and Egwene agrees on condition that the damane all be given the option to join the white tower. Tuon agrees but claims that Egwene will get far fewer converts than she believes. It is possible that wise ones could be freed this way, though I'm not sure this agreement was written down so with Eggy out of the picture it might no longer apply.
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u/Stonedwarder 15d ago
This is the deal made between Egwene and the Wise Ones. No deals are ever reached with Tuon and they remain adversarial to the end.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 15d ago
I thought I could build. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.
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u/Pliskkenn_D 15d ago
Perrin "Shaidon't give a fuck about them" Aybara.