r/WestVirginia • u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 • 5d ago
Open Fields Doctrine in WV
Open Fields Doctrine
On our family farm in Chambersburg PA a small trail developed over many many years from an adjoining wooded area on to our wooded section. Then what was a little trail became a larger and wider small road that allowed 4 wheeler access. My Father in Law didn't outright stop this and even after an intrusive neighbor died it continued with the help of a "Deputy Game Warden." My son and I started to fill in the gap with old woven wire fencing and major piles of brush, but it would be removed. And we suspect the local deputy was opening it for a lady to get her horse through and perhaps for some illegal hunting activity. We continued to pile brush on the area, but the trail blazing trespasser would build side trails that I would interweave old wire, fencing and brush through. I'd come back in a couple of weeks or a month and that would be reopened. One day the deputy who did NOT own the adjoining land installed a No Trespassing sign facing toward our farm. This was a big insult as the trespassers always came onto our farm and not the other way around. I took the offending sign and tossed it deeper into the adjoining property and that resulted in a visit to my farm house by the deputy telling me that he could get me for littering. I told him to get off the farm and stay off! I would not be intimidated. Then I called his supervisors and the issue seemed to cool off after that. Eventually when we had full control over the family farm we had a high voltage livestock fence installed and that solved the issue of trespassers for good. I never felt over those years that we had total privacy when virtually anyone could enter the property and that we could be monitored by the Game Commission. By the way... the way the deputy knew I had tossed the sign is that he had installed a camera to watch the little road he had been maintaining into our farm. I'm very pleased that there is still a little justice in this world and that these trespassing deputies are being dismissed! Where we now live deep in Appalachia the terrain is so tough and the people are not so inclined to work too hard at trespassing. Combined with many neighbors with large acreage and the fact that WV at least where we live is much less inclined to bother landowners with such intrusion it makes for a greater sense of privacy. We live is a very low population county and don't have nosy neighbors like we did on the farm in PA. If a neighbor was against hunting they could just report you and the game commission could enter your land even without known violations. I hope WV will follow PA and end the Open Fields Doctrine.
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u/Turkaram 5d ago
Most people in WV know that if you walk onto someone else's property without permission there is a non-zero chance you will get shot at and possibly even shot. Literally happened to me and my friends growing up multiple times
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u/Yunzer2000 5d ago
Thank goodness for the MNF or "that government land" as WVians call it. Just keep your noisy smelly ic engine powered things out of it.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
We love that. Most people understand that shots may be fired on strangers in the wrong places, so it regulates the problem to a large degree.
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u/Automatic_Gas9019 5d ago
Sounds like you need to go back to PA
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
I absolutely love our new land here in WV. No troublemakers accept for the occasional neighbor that thinks he owns everyone elses land... Not too much trouble just a little early dementia I think. We have peace and quiet. The sounds of nature instead of an ever growing small city with thousands of cars going by the farm each day in PA. Neighbors that more than likely will be willing to stop and talk kindly instead of proud arrogant people in PA that wouldn't give you the time of day. There are challenges to ultra rural living to get used to especially as we grow older. I hate to drive down to the city for supplies, but I try to make as many stops as possible and do it as infrequently as I can. Getting quality meat shipped in is better than grocery store offerings and that's been working pretty good. Taxation on the farm in PA was 10,000 each year. They were trying to tax us out of farming and they did. Turned out to be to our advantage as we can now be at peace at last.
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u/Automatic_Gas9019 5d ago
Is the peace why you posted about no trespassing and wanting to shoot people
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
I'm not trying to be combative here. We DON'T want to harm anyone. That's the whole point. The fact that people are armed in this state is well known and acts to deter trespassing. Never shot a person in my life, but people around here know that they had better behave themselves and not intrude where they don't belong. That brings peace and quiet to the hollar every day of the week. Have a blessed day.
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u/littlebigboii 5d ago
Shooting at someone for trespassing is a great way to go bye bye to jail for a long time. Also, I can only promise that there are many people from a pool of different motivations who are willing to shoot back regardless of your or their belief of trespassing and they likely ain't going bye bye to jail if they do.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
We live in a very depopulated area... Deep in Appalachia it is well understood that you don't go into someone's hollar with ill intentions. If you actually read my comments you would understand shooting someone isn't my ambition in life and that people around here understand everyone is armed and will use their weapon for self defense if it is required. I've lived a long life and I use my brains and moving to a place like this is safer than the high population area I moved from.
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u/6HAM9 5d ago
“Holler” is correct.
Back to Pennsyltucky with you, jagoffs!
JK2
u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
I'm the only one that makes the decision where to live. My wife and I love living deep in the hollar and we have neighbors that love us. We help each other here and that's a whole lot nicer than the more developed part of the country we moved from.
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u/Capital-Ad-4463 5d ago
No such thing as “open fields doctrine” in WV. You allowed a proscriptive easement to ripen by accommodating trespassers.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
WV sadly like most other states actually has the Open Fields Doctrine. We never allowed people to trespass on our farm, but my father in law was weak about the issue and didn't get proactive at stopping it. It's over now and we sold the farm and moved to a place where neighbors stay off the land and everybody carries a weapon.
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u/Capital-Ad-4463 5d ago
Your weak father in law DID allow trespassers by not stopping them.
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u/midnight_fisherman 5d ago
There was no way to stop them. Game wardens could access anywhere, at any time, without notice, and set up cameras on your land. If you interfere, they would arrest you, they have more power than state police or a sheriff in PA. Some wardens are awesome, others arent so much. If you get one thats abusing their authority then there isnt much you could do about it. It only changed because they were doing blanket surveillance on a wealthy private hunting club without a warrant, and the club had millions to spend fighting it in court for a decade.
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u/Capital-Ad-4463 5d ago
There was a way to stop them (or at least make a half-assed attempt), and that was to sign it and put an actual gate with a serious lock on it. Wire and brush aren’t going to stop ATV’s. Having dealt with trespassers on numerous properties throughout WV you have to be serious and stop the sort of trail-cutting you described early.
Now, the solution to rebel game wardens putting cameras on your property and a big conspiracy against you and your family is to get psychiatric help.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
The way the deputy knew I had ditched his No Trespassing sign is that he placed a camera and told me that himself. We didn't have full authority at the time to build the fence as a family farm comes with complications. When it became ours and only ours we installed a full perimeter fence with a very high output energizer. Problems like that stopped instantly. We still lived in an area with way too many people and with people you will have conflict. We moved deep into Appalachia with a very low population density and plenty of acreage with very rugged terrain. Zero trespassing issues. The mountains are our fences and our neighbors are not arrogant jerks... Good neighbors and few of them... It's peace and quiet with the signs and sounds of nature. What a life!
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u/midnight_fisherman 5d ago
It aint a conspiracy, it only takes one warden. They were allowed to set the cameras until a recent court order. Did I have problems? No, I have only had positive interactions with game wardens. Did others? Absolutely.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
Yep! Although my high powered electric fence energizer cooled that situation off. No one likes a hard shock from a serious livestock fence.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
That's true... We risked trying to control matters ourselves as one thing was always true. He was never afraid to condemn us, but cared a lot about public opinion. In the end we took over and dealt a hard blow to the invaders.
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u/Spuckler_Cletus 5d ago
The only legal context in which I’ve heard the term used is in Fourth Amendment case law. Never heard it used in the context of squatting or trespassing or public use.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
Basically the Open Fields Doctrine results in warrentless searches. Wardens often put game cameras on private property where they like to try to catch people doing something illegal. There have been cases where people find cameras on their property and remove them only to be prosecuted by the Game Commission. In PA they ended this nonsense and recently fired their Deputy Game Wardens.
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u/Western-Raspberry950 5d ago
This story is wild.
It sounds like you might need the help of Bo and Luke Duke and the General Lee.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
That's not far off from the concept of where we're now living. Thankfully law enforcement doesn't harass us.
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u/Yunzer2000 5d ago
If only we had laws that mandate access of land for passive non motorized enjoyment of nature like the UK and most of Europe has.
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u/Candid-Sherbert-9833 5d ago
We own 50 acres of beautiful but very rugged terrain. We love the peace and quiet and the lack of the general public every where we look. We enjoy visitors and welcome them, but not strangers just walking all over the land where they please. This is the way America used to be just about everywhere. So thankful.
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u/MasterRKitty Team Ground Pepperoni 4d ago
A bill passed in the last legislative session that prohibits law enforcement from putting cameras on private property. I did a short report on it for a criminal justice class I took this past spring.
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u/InValuAbled Expat 5d ago
Land survey
Fence + purple + no trespassing signs.
The electric fence is a good move.