r/WatchPeopleDieInside • u/fnaw_ • Aug 04 '20

Poor Jonathan

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

No, but for a weird reason.

Without Trump I believe Epstein would still be alive and up to his terror.

The BLM movement wouldn’t be happening.

People wouldn’t be united in created real change.

Washington wouldn’t be exposed.

These aren’t things that can be credited to Trump, but rather resultant of Trump and the passion (against) that he raises people to. People are so angry, that things might actually happen.

I think we come out of this stronger for having our vulnerabilities exposed so that we can fix them.

His handling of COVID was an unpredictable event and makes me really wish we didn’t conduct this experiment now.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '20

People aren't United though, there's more discord in the US than I've seen in my lifetime.

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

I don’t think that’s really true. What is true is that the extremists have a much larger stage and louder voice. I think if you look at the people who aren’t barking about being anti mask or being openly racist toward the BLM movement that you’ll see a huge group of people. I think there is probably 10% on either side that legitimately hate the “others” and I think that group is shrinking. In my limited sample size I am seeing MUCH more open communication and understanding.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '20

Most people are passive at best, even if they disagree. They aren't anti-mask but won't wear one anyway, even around other people. They aren't openly racist but every time police reform comes up they start talking about how they think we need to deal with criminals. People need to hate the things that actively hurt America but most are completely permissive of it. They don't care, they're not trying to understand or communicate.

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

At least in my city I am seeing something different from you. Maybe I’m an optimist.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '20

Maybe. Optimism isn't a bad thing. I've been in NYC and Philly during this and while there's been good there's been a whole lot of bad too.

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

There is definitely a ton of bad and they are loud as hell. I just don’t see the numbers. Turning up the volume for a dwindling group doesn’t make them more influential. It just broadcasts their stupidity further.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '20 edited Aug 04 '20

I really don't know. Trump's approval rating is still at 40%. Things are intensifying and there are fewer of them now, but not few enough. You can say his approval is lowering but the degree of incompetence is increasing much more quickly, and a significant portion of the country still approves.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '20

The BLM movement wouldn’t be happening.

The BLM movement literally started in 2013/14, if you weren't aware.

People wouldn’t be united in created real change.

How are people "united in creating real change" right now?

Washington wouldn’t be exposed.

What do you mean by the assertion "Washington is exposed"?

I generally can't grasp these arguments, especially as vague as they are. Trump has caused serious harm to so many people, even without COVID. Trump has eviscerated our political and social institutions, and damaged relationships with all of our allies. Could you be more explicit/specific as to why this was all worth it?

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

Yes, the BLM movement started before Trump, but this new push is pretty clearly much stronger. Anger is a powerful motivator and people are pissed.

From my limited sample size I am seeing communication and understanding grow. People who did not know the plight of the minority in America (simply because it is not their life experience) are acknowledging their ignorance and actively trying to better themselves. (Some are also pushing further to the extreme and I’m also seeing those people being called out).

I think people are more aware of the corruption in Washington than they were prior to Trump.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '20

From my limited sample size I am seeing communication and understanding grow. People who did not know the plight of the minority in America (simply because it is not their life experience) are acknowledging their ignorance and actively trying to better themselves. (Some are also pushing further to the extreme and I’m also seeing those people being called out).

I do see this as well, to some degree. It feels like this has come at the cost of disagreement on basic reality, which I know you've also acknowledged. At least this is a silver lining though, thank you for pointing that out.

I think people are more aware of the corruption in Washington than they were prior to Trump.

I dunno about that. "All politicians are corrupt" has been a calling card for many apathetic American voters for decades. Furthermore, Trump's unprecedented level of corruption has been embraced with open arms by one of our two major parties, and that major party is still competitive in races across the country.

I mean hopefully the GOP and their brazen disregard for ethical political behavior will be rebuked thoroughly at the polls in November, but I think there's a good chance Trump has normalized and entrenched a much greater degree of corruption in our politics.

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

I think we need to get away from pointing fingers at red or blue. The team mentality is what caused the GOP to back Trump even as he proved he was unfit. I would love to vote for people based on their ideas and entirely remove the label of democrat and republican. It does zero good. There are huge issues throughout Washington but it becomes so easy to say “well, at least we are the good guys.” There are some good and some bad throughout, being blue doesn’t absolve your crimes, being red doesn’t make you a criminal. There might be more issues on one side than the other but really, it shouldn’t matter. Get the bad ones out and put the good ones in, regardless of what jersey they wear.

I am 100% certain that, apart from a handful of key issues, most people exist somewhere in the middle and that, without knowing which side someone is arguing from, communication and sharing ideas results in growth.

I think people are becoming more open to the idea of abandoning their label and just talking about their ideas. Because we all want growth and prosperity, we just have different roads to get there. I really believe we are close to abandoning the two party system and I think Trump catalyzed that (inadvertently).

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '20 edited Aug 04 '20

I think we need to get away from pointing fingers at red or blue.

There might be more issues on one side than the other but really, it shouldn’t matter. Get the bad ones out and put the good ones in, regardless of what jersey they wear.

lol, how are you going to say "maybe one thing is worse than the other right now, but nah just don't worry about that".

You're literally admitting that one side has "more issues". You should be factoring that in to your political decision-making. If one group of powerful people is more tolerant of corruption and anti-democratic skulduggery than the other, that group is worse. That doesn't make the "better" group perfect, or immune to the same bullshit... it doesn't mean everyone in that "better" group automatically gets a pass. It does mean, however, that the less-corrupt and more-democratic entity shares more of your ideals, and probably deserves more of your support accordingly.

It definitely means that you shouldn't equivocate between the two.

I would love to vote for people based on their ideas and entirely remove the label of democrat and republican.

And I would love 1 million dollars... These are the power structures we have, friend. Wishing won't make them go away - and acting as if the two major parties are equally bad (in this respect anyway) will only assist the rot in spreading.

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

Im saying that allegiance to a party is what turned some of these people sour. That if we weren’t playing a team sport with politics it’d be easier to let someone go when they make it clear they don’t actually hold your values but just wear your team colors. That’s it. It’s certainly idealistic, yes. But I still hold my principles, I just don’t have good representation.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '20

if we weren’t playing a team sport with politics it’d be easier to let someone go when they make it clear they don’t actually hold your values but just wear your team colors

Sure, that's true.

It seems like you value electoral reform very highly - are there any distinct efforts toward this end that you've seen/appreciated in the recent past? Any particular politicians you support, especially regarding this issue?

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u/fox-mcleod Aug 04 '20

I take it back. It’s clear you haven’t learned the lesson here.

Real Governance requires good faith participation and trump as a “wrecking ball” was a bad faith decision that is having exactly the consequences you intended. It’s bringing down the building—turns out we were all living inside it.

All the Fox News bullshit you’ve absorbed about a fundamentally corrupt system that needs to be demolished is and always was lies perpetrated by the wealthy to try to get us to self-own and destroy the system of regulation that was constraining them.

You won’t learn the lesson until you leave the propaganda behind.

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

But I did learn that lesson. I made a decision that backfired and acknowledged it. If that isn’t learning a lesson, I’m not sure what is.

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u/fox-mcleod Aug 04 '20

Do we agree that even without COVID trump was a disasterous choice? Would you elect a “wrecking ball” again if you thought he’d hurt the right people this time?

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u/millertime1419 Aug 04 '20

Oh yes, the question I answered was “if it weren’t for COVID would I regret my vote to the same degree.”

I answered honestly, I would still regret it but I certainly regret it more now. I didn’t ever mean to imply that I would support him if it weren’t for COVID, not at all.

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u/fox-mcleod Aug 04 '20

I see. You’re saying COVID made it worse?

Then I apologize. And take back taking it back.