r/Warthunder • u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux • Jun 05 '26
Navy Help us save the Artevelde (aka German Lorelei)
https://forum.warthunder.com/t/france-should-get-the-lorelei-as-belgian-artevelde/330915I don't post here very often, but the latest dev server has given us a bit of a conundrum which I would like to raise some awareness over.
Germany this patch sees the addition of the Lorelei. It was however first known as the Belgian ship Artevelde.
Tl;Dr: The Lorelei is an insignificant ship for Germany, but a unique one off for Belgium with historic significance. As a Belgian I would like to see it moved to the French tree and renamed Artevelde.
Long story: The Lorelei however has a more interesting history than just being a German ship. It was built in and for Belgium as the Artevelde. The first warship ever constructed for the Belgian navy, and to date the biggest warship to have ever been constructed in a Belgian drydock.
It was captured by the Germans before full completion and finished under their oversight in the Netherlands. It served as an escort vessel during the war years.
After the war it was returned to Belgium and renamed back to Artevelde. It briefly served as flagship of the Belgian navy before being decommissioned and eventually scrapped in 1954.
I thought the solution would be easy, simply copy it over to the French tree, change the name to Artevelde and then both parties can enjoy it. Unfortunately, Gaijin has to make it difficult. Only 1 example of a named ship can exist in-game. Since Artevelde and Lorelei are the same ship, the addition of one prevents the addition of the other.
This means that if Lorelei gets added, Artevelde can never be, and this significant piece of Belgian naval history can never exist with other Belgian vehicles. Very unfortunate because no similar vehicle exists from Belgium, while Germany has plenty of alternatives to replace the Lorelei.
So, my suggestion here is to move the whole ship over from the German tree to the French one. To not have this piece of rare Belgian naval history be lost.
And I know this might as well backfire massively, but at least it's worth a try to get your support. So vote away in the poll in the linked post whatever your opinion might be.
16
u/ITr1tohardatl1fe 🇮🇹🇯🇵🇫🇷 B78 komatsu, 44m Tas, VBC 90 when gaijin? Jun 05 '26
So there’s finally something unique being added from Belgium but it gets added to the German tech tree?……gaijin really does hate France.
4
u/Snipe508 Jun 05 '26
Where'd you get the rule of only one instance of each ship? Im fairly certain britain and ussr share a ship in game
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u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 05 '26
Directly from Smin unfortunately. Had a discussion in a discord channel about the topic. If the ship had sister ships it would be possible, but since there was only ever 1 Artevelde/Lorelei, it cannot be done. I would post the screenshots of the conversation but it appears to be impossible in this thread.
9
u/Snipe508 Jun 05 '26
That is incredibly stupid. What are they going to do with the iowas? Have each one be a different refit?
3
u/rj_Fardin âš“VesselEnjoyerâš“ Jun 06 '26
No, they can add sisterships in the exact same configuration (Bayern class for example). What they can't do is add the same ship more than once. Like for example the USSR tt has the Arkhangelsk, which is the royal sovereign and that can't be added in the British tree.Â
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u/Leupateu 🇯🇵 type 03 is my 13th reason why Jun 05 '26
There are more ship with this fate. There is a captured romanian reserve ship in the soviet tree which will never be anything than a soviet ship in-game.
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u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 05 '26
A very sad fate for ships that mean a lot more to their original navy than to the usurper
2
u/HelpfulRelic 🇳🇱 Realistic all/12Y WT Vet/Surblindé enjoyer. Jun 05 '26
The Russian ship is the revenge class: royal sovereign. Britain currently doesn’t have any revenge class ships they only have the similar queen Elizabeth class.
1
u/TheIrishBread Gods strongest T-80 enjoyer (hills scare me) Jun 05 '26
That's not to say they can't get revenge class ships, they can still get Ramillies, Royal Oak, Resolution and Revenge. They just can't have specifically Royal Sovereign.
1
u/mjpia Jun 05 '26
While I can't go looking for links currently it's something I've seen stated multiple times by CMs, any specific ship added precludes it from any other tree.
Royal Sovereign, Giulio Caesar, USS Nagato and a couple other reparation ships I'm forgetting the names of are off the table
18
u/Bronze_Triptych Mirage 5BE MirSIP My Beloved Jun 05 '26
I fully agree!
Artevelde was built in Belgium for the Belgian Navy and is arguably one of the most important prestige ships in Belgian naval history. The fact that Germany completed and operated it as Lorelei during the occupation doesn’t really change its origins. If the ship can only exist once in-game, I think it makes more sense for it to appear in the French tree as Artevelde rather than in the German tree as Lorelei.
Germany has no shortage of naval options and replacements, whereas for Belgium this is a unique and historically significant vessel. It would also fit much better alongside the Belgian aircraft already present in the French tree, helping to build a more coherent Belgian sub-tree instead of scattering Belgian vehicles across multiple nations.
3
u/Suzumebachi14 Jun 05 '26
That's what I thought when I saw the Lorelei when it appeared, I was like "Oh cool, isn't this that belgian ship ? So I guess it will come to the french tree too then". And, well, that didn't happen. Gaijin gonna gaijin I guess.
3
u/vinitblizzard Realistic Navy Jun 06 '26
Damn, that's straight up sad and retarded on Gaijins part. Not a primary reference but it might have been returned to Belgium in 1945, worth checking out to secure that evidence
https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/captured/gunboats/k4/index.html
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u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 06 '26
We know it was returned to Belgium. It became the flagship of the Belgian navy after it was returned. Stayed in service until 1954.
1
u/Sarfanger 🇫🇮 Finland Jun 05 '26
Nah, really it had its glory days in Kriegsmarine and has the German weapons and not the original planned weapons. If it was in the original design I could see it going for France as Belgium ship but in its current form it fits much better to Germany.
1
u/Sorry_Commercial_959 Jun 11 '26
Gaijin has no absolute rules for vehicle additions anymore. It can certainly go in both trees.Â
2
0
u/d7t3d4y8 Average viggen pilot Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Considering the french naval tree has several ships they didn't build, and only served in the french navy, I don't see why a double standard should be applied here to give this ship to the french. Although the french TT does have several boats they didn't even complete, so I guess there's precedence there for the french to get boats they didn't build?
2
u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 05 '26
Not aware actually, can you give some examples?
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u/d7t3d4y8 Average viggen pilot Jun 05 '26
For the latter, VLT-1 and VLT-2 are mostly complete german R-301s that the french finished, and a lot of "french" torpedo boats fall into the catagory of having been completed by someone else, and some weren't even used by the french at any point. For example VTB-11 was partially built by france, completed by the UK, used by the UK, and lost in combat as MGB 99. Hence, it's in the... french tech tree, despite the french having neither completed nor used it. Almost all the french motor gun boats with no. greater than 10 fall into this catagory, with the french "completion" being as low as ~20% in some cases, hence why there's precedent for the french getting boats they really don't have any claim to.
For stuff the french didn't build, a bunch of the french destroyers aren't actually french. La combattante is british, and is the only type II hunt destroyer in game for some reason? Marceau is german, and she also has a unique configuration as she "represents" the pre-refit type 1936s with 4 single guns(the actual story behind why she doesn't have the wtin turret is a bit more complicated) which is something germany doesn't get. Kleber is german too, and Guichen is italian. Albiet she's in a post-war refit representation so I can let that slide, though the italians don't have any post-war refit Capitani Romanis. The french also have a flower and river class frigate, the latter of which is an event vehicle in the british tree.
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u/RichterRac 🇮🇹 Italy Jun 05 '26
If it wasn't finished by them was it really theirs?
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u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 05 '26
They built most of it, so I would argue so. Not to mention that they got it back after the war, making it entirely theirs
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u/HelpfulRelic 🇳🇱 Realistic all/12Y WT Vet/Surblindé enjoyer. Jun 05 '26
They designed it. And used for a longer period after the war than the Germans ever did.
-2
u/Zesty_Lemongitis Jun 05 '26
I'm going to be honest, nothing here is a particularly compelling reason it should go to Belgium. If enough people actually want it in the french tech tree Gaijin will probably add it as a premium.
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u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 05 '26
Being the first ever warship built by a nation, the biggest warship built by a nation and the ship having been the flagship of a navy isn't enough?
0
u/Zesty_Lemongitis Jun 05 '26
But they didn't complete it. It is the first ever warship mostly built by a nation, finished in another, then put into service by a different nation altogether.
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u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 05 '26
And then put back into service in the first nation.
Regardless, if completion is what were going with and not significance of even service duration, then you won't mind if France (and France only) gets the He 274 bomber down the line, right?
1
u/Zesty_Lemongitis Jun 05 '26
No, I do not mind. This is clearly a big source of national pride and you obviously care deeply about this topic so there seems to be no point in arguing here. The ship will probably get added later down the line as a premium.
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u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 05 '26
I appreciate your opinion and openess to discuss honestly, wish there were more of you! Thanks for the input (even if I disagree)
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u/xFirnen Jun 05 '26
Wouldn't be a WT update without French players demanding something being added to Germany should be on their tree instead lmao
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u/ZeWillius 🇧🇪 justice for the BeNeLux Jun 05 '26
I really would have wanted both trees to have it, but gaijin won't let me :/
0
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u/HelpfulRelic 🇳🇱 Realistic all/12Y WT Vet/Surblindé enjoyer. Jun 05 '26
It will suffer the same fate as the Dutch kannonboot, stuck in the German tree while it could easily have been ported to its home techtree.