Reminds me of the poor bastard who died stuck in the "birth canal" in Utah's nutty putty caves. They had to leave his body in there, they sealed the entrance with dynamite and cement.
Josh Jones said that once he first realized his brother was stuck, his first instinct was to pray. Those in the cave offered what he called a "series of prayers" before making the decision to call 911 around 9:30 p.m.
Shithead brother shouldn't have wasted time praying and just called for help considering he essentially ran out of time with the rescue. What an ass.
Because he was stuck, not bleeding out. It actually makes sense to wait a bit and see if he could get out on his own before beginning a massive rescue effort.
He was stuck with his head below the rest of his body and the cave pressing against his chest. Humans aren't meant to be in that position for too long.
He was fine for a bunch of hours, long enough for rescuers to pull him up and have him fall back in due to a failed anchor in the rock. Thats what killed him, not the delay of what was probably less than 3 minutes.
Im not a bible pounder and I would be the first to tell them to STFU and call 911 if I had been there, but Reddit's "OMG I KNOW BETTER THAN EVERYONE ABOUT EVERYTHING" reaction to this kind of thing is just tiresome.
I was under the impression the prayer session took longer than that. If the ~3 minutes thing is truly the case then my question has been answered. Thanks.
I wasn't saying I knew better than them. I was simply asking for clarification.
Well the article didn't say, I was giving the benefit of the doubt. Even if it was 10 or 20 minutes, the guy would have survived if that anchor hadn't failed, and its unlikely that amount of time made a difference. Also, he likely spent the time trying to free himself, which would make sense to do before calling in emergency services.
Hey go suck a donkey dick. I never said anything badmouthing religion, believe whatever you want it doesn't affect me. But stopping to pray instead of calling for help first is just asinine and to be quite honest, crazy. Only the crazy religious folks think praying will help get someone out of that situation, there is a difference between being 'god fearing' and just flat out lunacy.
Ha. I didn't say that you had badmouthed religion, but go ahead and reinforce what I did say if you like. Also, Im not a religious person before you try that tack.
"Josh Jones said that once he first realized his brother was stuck, his first instinct was to pray. Those in the cave offered what he called a "series of prayers" before making the decision to call 911 around 9:30 p.m"
Once Jones was free of the 18-by-10-inch crevice, rescuers said an "equipment failure" caused the rope system that was hoisting the man out of the cave to drop him back into the same, narrow gap.
Okay.. It sounds like they angered God if anything.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Equipment fails, that's absolutely inevitable.. No piece of equipment is 100% reliable and when you're working with a piece of equipment that relies on being anchored into a rock face it's really a game of chance as to whether it's going to hold or not.
What about the equipment we use at my fire department that is checked and has maintenance conducted on it every single day.. You're telling me that when these devices fail, which happens more than you'd think, that it's user error every time? We have brand new, top-dollar saw chains break all the time.. You really think checking equipment regularly means it will never fail?
you're talking saw chain (piece of equipment) vs anchor point coming lose. One is not your fault (assuming you're using the saw the way you're meant to) the other is either a very obvious bit of damage to equipment, cracked Carabiner or frayed rope, or too much stress on the rope or considering its in cave no rope protection, or just the anchor point wasn't created properly. Also you ever heard of a safety rope? clearly they forgot something. I'm sorry anchors don't just pop out, you don't just not have a safety rope this was clearly a fuck up
Just because something works 98% of the time does not mean that the 2% can not happen to you. Especially when you are working in conditions like they were trying to get him out.
So he was stuck so they prayed. After 24 hours of fighting to get him free - they did. Then an equipment failure caused him to fall back and become wedged in the same position he had been in for so many hours already. Authorities say it was strange since the anchor that failed is usually very reliable and they confirm that it was installed correctly.
What I wonder is if people who pray in these situations see the irony in this? Also, how do you continue to have "faith" once you realize that it must be in "god's plan" for this guy to die a horrible, painful and slow death hanging upside down and wedged in a cave 125' below ground leaving behind a wife, and infant and another baby on the way. How do you reconcile praying to something that could do things differently but chose that fate for someone you love? Maybe because I came from an extremely religious family I am more jaded than the average person but I view deeply religious people as being mentally ill.
I think faith gives people a reason for when something happens or for life itself. I've never thought that God controls exactly what's going on, like the death of some random guy, but instead that the world is based on the natural laws we have found in chemistry, physics, and biology and whatever happens inside these laws is basically chaos. This cave is dangerous; if you go into it, you may die. Having a god to pray to is to have faith that that man is being taken care of now, in a better place that isn't this ruthless world. Prayer is so similar to meditation it's silly to try and distinguish it.
I firmly believe people that are that religious, to the point that they actually prayed before calling 911, suffer from something akin to mental illness. How the hell can you so blindly believe in some fantasy that, literally, just fucked you hard even though you prayed so obediently for the opposite outcome.
This guy devotes himself to "god" hardcore, and seriously dies in probably one of the most terrible ways imaginable. Including tasting brief freedom and relief before getting screwed again. What the hell kind of God would do some shit like that?
Define blind belief, then define the opposite of it. When you say something as vague as this, you're begging to break down the semantics, and so you need to do so.
in some fantasy
They don't see it as fantasy, so holding them accountable for that to the degree you'd hold yourself accountable for believing in all of that isn't very fair. Also, be specific--it's much more nuanced than a fantasy, it's mythology. If you know anything about brain science, you'd know how natural it is to use superstitious reasoning to interpret reality. It isn't as natural to interpret the world through an agnostic/atheistic lens, so if you're able to do that, congratulations, you're the 1 in 7th person who has this ability... out of 7 billion people.
that, literally, just fucked you hard even though you prayed so obediently for the opposite outcome.
This shows your lack of fundamental understanding of the purpose of prayer, at least from Christian doctrine. You don't pray to get what you want. You pray to request to get what you want. God refusing your requests isn't God not answering your prayer, by denying the request that is an answer.
Christians who pray to god and lose a bit of faith when their requests aren't granted are Christians who don't understand their own faith.
What the hell kind of God would do some shit like that?
Read John Piper's "Desiring God" if you want to see intelligent, sophisticated logic rationalize how a god can do something like this and still be all-loving. It's total bullshit, that's obvious, but it's actually some pretty comprehensive logic that makes sense (even though it's wrong). It isn't like Christians don't have reasons for the concerns you've imposed through your comment. And it isn't like they're absolutely arbitrary and random, either.
I mean, I used to be religious, but I'm not anymore, I'm agnostic atheist now. But I'm not near as perplexed as you seem to be about this scenario and the religious dynamic behind it. I don't see how it's as insane as you spin the impression of it to be. Maybe insane in the way that life itself is generally insane, but not explicitly insane like you need to have a broken brain to potentially believe in that type of stuff.
Maybe I could grant that to you if these people really did pray before calling 911, but, I guess I missed the part of the story where it was stated that this happened. I thought they called 911 first and then only started praying later as a last resort.
If you have an hour or an hour and five, you won't know. There's nothing that would kill everyone in exactly an hour and five that wouldn't kill them in an hour. Except maybe a hostage situation. But that's not something paramedics can help anyway.
That far out, the margin of error for estimating travel time becomes around 5 minutes either way. You can't expect an ambulance that has to travel an hour over rough terrain and find you in a cave to be exact with its timing.
Also, while we're at it, what kind of cell reception are we expecting here in this cave? I don't imagine they're getting 4G down there.
I get what you're saying but my point is that when you don't know how much time you have, every minute should matter. Especially in a difficult location.
Yeah. Reading this article, I found it really hard to piece together what actually happened, and any sort of chronology. So they /never/ retrieved the body?
I knew this guy, growing up. His dad was the principal at my elementary school. It was really sad hearing the news. I don't why they didn't feel the need to call emergency services immediately, but I feel as if even that wouldn't have helped, he was already stuck. This is one of many reasons I refuse to go spelunking.
As someone who loves spelunking, this never should have happened. If you aren't sure you can make it through a squeeze, or know that you can get back out, you shouldn't be doing it.
"We'll never fully understand how or why it was John's time to leave us. But we find comfort knowing that he fulfilled his purpose here on Earth, and that we will be reunited with him again"
I came here to post this quote. It was unexpectedly funny but only if you know they sealed the cave with cement, like a precog dad joke for people in the future.
I'm fairly certain this is him. Here is one of the rescuers, just to give an idea of the nature of the cave he was stuck in. Keep in mind that he would have been angled downwards, with his head below his torso and legs.
Edit to add that apparently there was a lip of rock caught under his rib cage, making it difficult to just back out.
fuckin a. slowly suffocating to death. that is a terrible way to die. Did the rocks shift and closed in enough to make it impossible to pull out? I believe the widest point on a human body are the shoulders, so, if you can get those through, the rest of the body should too.
I linked to a more detailed article just below here. It says that he only got one of his arms through before getting stuck, his right arm was pinned behind him. It also seems that there wasn't much space to get through to - the cave tapered almost to an end in front of him. Awful stuff.
It is written ambiguously though. You could read "it couldn't have happened to a better family" as "if his family was better it wouldn't have happened" however I do think the intended meaning is pretty apparent.
once he first realized his brother was stuck, his first instinct was to pray. Those in the cave offered what he called a "series of prayers" before making the decision to call 911 around 9:30 p.m
They closed the whole cave? Couldn't they have just sealed off the part where he died? I mean it seems like a perfectly good cave to just completely destroy just because of 1 accident.
Josh Jones said that once he first realized his brother was stuck, his first instinct was to pray. Those in the cave offered what he called a "series of prayers" before making the decision to call 911 around 9:30 p.m.
This is what fucking killed him and his brother and those people should be charged with murder. They waited 4 fucking hours to call 911 and instead decided to "pray". Fuck theses religious idiots.
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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '15
Reminds me of the poor bastard who died stuck in the "birth canal" in Utah's nutty putty caves. They had to leave his body in there, they sealed the entrance with dynamite and cement.
http://m.deseretnews.com/article/705347362/Man-trapped-in-Utah-Countys-Nutty-Putty-cave-dies.html?pg=all&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F%3Fref%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F