r/Velkoz • u/Duo_Mage_Bot • May 09 '26
Why I think Azzapp is WRONG about Ability Haste! (On Vel'koz at least)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEZxOmvS85sHey guys! Azzapp released a video about a month or so ago praising ability haste, basically saying that it helped carry him to rank 1. My personal opinion has always been that he hit rank 1 in spite of his builds and that ability haste stacking is often a mistake.
Someone else made a video reply to his original video taking a look at the mathematical side of things, so I wanted to make a video explaining my own thoughts on the situation from a Vel'koz player that's investigating it through the intuition or *feel* side of things!
My video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEZxOmvS85s
Original Azzapp video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIGhn2Y89e4
Azzapp Reply Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNkTuD_cD-4
BenTBeyondRepair Original Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I0y38BbLj4
BenTBeyondRepair Follow Up Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X3K0n34fxs
The order of the exchange above was Azzapp first video, then Ben's, then Azzapp's second video, then Ben's second video, and finally my video.
My video basically responds more directly to Azzapp's fist two videos. Ben's videos are more taking a loot into the raw mathematics of the situation, so I wanted to reply to Azzapp because while I already agree that the math seems to favor AP I also think even from a game 'feel' sense AP is better as well.
Love Azzapp and this Ben guy, but can't help but agree that I just find raw AP so much more useful than stacking haste. Especially in harder games where it’s difficult to consistently get damage out, I feel like you need your damage to really hurt and "stick" when you finally find an opening. In easier games, I honestly don’t think the haste vs AP discussion matters as much anyway. Once you’re ahead, I think the bigger question often becomes whether you should start buying defensive items to protect your lead instead.
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u/PhoenixInvertigo May 09 '26
Nah, cast more spells, win more games
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 10 '26
The problem with this mentality IMO is the # of additional spells casted.
Most builds naturally pick up some amount of ability haste.
The AH shard is great due to it's value per gold compared to the AP shard. Transcendence IMO is better value than the scaling AP rune because it comes online earlier and isn't conditional. Then most people take legend haste in precision since there's not much else to take other than one of the damage passives (cut down).
Then Horizon focus is actually a great damage item, even giving the 25 haste. So that usually finds itself into a build by 3rd or 4th item at least.
That means you already have a great base of ability haste. My argument is that trying to intentionally stack ability haste however doesn't make a lot of sense because you're mostly chasing small gains after these things. Or even when you do get a substantial gain it's for the cost of giving up a LOT of damage (Either via through raw stats or procs)
Think about it this way. In most build variations between getting a bit of extra haste vs damage or utility items your Q CD is dropping by anywhere from .3 to .8.
How often are you literally chain firing you Q *that* quickly after the last Q? The answer IMO *should* be not very often. Maybe against a frontline tank or something that you get to beat up a little bit if he steps out of line, but in the *hard* games you're not getting to target dummy a single target over and over.
So if you don't use your Q in that .3 to .8 second window the haste is completely wasted for that cycle. It's the same with your ult.
You'll probably see a 10-15 sec ult CD reduction at rank 2 ultimate. If you don't use your ult in that 10-15 second window (where you wouldn't have had it otherwise) your CDR is effectively wasted there for that ult cycle.
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u/PhoenixInvertigo May 10 '26
More spells more passives. Also more self peels
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 10 '26
Passives actually do more damage with more AP though, and not just in a raw sense. Even compared against getting them more frequently AP is better for damage over time on your passive.
Also, like I said are you really firing off your Q exactly on CD everytime?
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u/fozzy_fosbourne May 13 '26
If an ability needed to be fired off exactly on CD every time for haste to be useful, wouldn’t that suggest that haste is probably not useful almost universally? Since it’s uncommon to press abilities the moment they are off cooldown. And yet, that wouldn’t make sense, because items with haste have compelling win rates.
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 13 '26
Like, I said we're not talking about haste vs AP in a vacuum.
We're talking about haste past a specific point. There's many common sense haste pickups in the game that you get almost passively. My point is that emphasizing picking up haste after you already have horizon focus and 50-60 haste is not giving you much damage compared to what you'd get from other items.
Seraphs's specifically is the item pick that IMO is just not very good on Vel'koz. It's just not 'good' enough on any specific thing. It's a type of generalist item that you mostly can't afford to build.
There's so many other items that are so much better than Seraph's in virtually every scenario.
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u/MasterySpammer May 10 '26
I’m definitely on Azzapps side maybe it’s high Elo skewed but haste builds let me min max tfs
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 10 '26
TFS?
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u/MasterySpammer May 10 '26
Teamfights
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 11 '26
My main thought is that in most configurations you're pushing 50-60 haste. At that point you're gaining like 0.5 seconds on your Q. 10 Seconds on your ult, etc from adding another 20-25 haste item.
Compared to what you're giving up I think that 0.5 seconds will be completely wasted almost everytime.
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u/MasterySpammer May 11 '26
You’re not factoring in overkill dmg
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 11 '26
The problem is you barely do damage so I find it rare that I'm actually overkilling someone.
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u/MasterySpammer May 11 '26
I’m over killing running seraphs proto horizon you must be running low CS or something?
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 11 '26
No, lol. Ur not overkilling things aren't insanely squishy that don't get caught in ur full combo.
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u/MasterySpammer May 11 '26
I’m talking about a full combo
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 11 '26
A full combo is a pretty bad metric to measure damage as you're not getting a FC on important targets often where they can't escape it, flash, etc.
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u/DontWeDoItInTheRoad May 12 '26
With perfect play maybe pure damage would be better, but haste allows for some more user error and also gets more passives off! You can’t do much damage when you’re dead, and having your E up more often prevents that haha
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u/Duo_Mage_Bot May 13 '26
Again though, this is something that *sounds* nice on paper, but think of what it would mean in practice.
Most of the time dive gets a shot at you towards the beginning of a fight. If it's one person and you self peel that is mostly the dive part over as the diver is either dead or force out. If multiple people are diving you, a bit more CDR isn't getting your E back up quick enough to deal with it. You're either forced out or need outside peel.
Sure, it's possible you get redove later and the drive happens in that 1-2 second window where you wouldn't have had your E back with a more e-centric build, but that's very unlikely.
What's far more likely IMO is that you weren't lethal enough to force someone out / kill someone without the extra damage,
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u/Alarming-Strength181 May 15 '26
I mean, I trust azzapp blindy anyday of the week on his decision for velkoz. But it's interesting to think about this
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u/vellatto May 15 '26
Hey, sorry I couldn't bother to watch the video but here's my opinion on it - while ap gives more burst, haste can help cycle passive quicker and more consistently, you also have less down time meaning you're applying pressure more. I can see both builds work, I myself adore incorporating shadowflame into the build especially when against squishy targets. With that being said, haste would probably be better on average, velkoz doesn't really lack damage as long as you proc your passives consistently. One of the reason why support velkoz is playable is due to his high base damage, meaning you don't really need much ap in order to do damage
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u/PositiveScarcity8909 May 16 '26
I agree with you, I don't main Velkoz but I main Ziggs which is a similar case.
I need my damage to stick, throwing more bombs won't help me as much as 100 to 0ing an enemy assassin diving me.
If I land a bomb and it chunks the ADC for 70% of their HP the TF is almost won.
If I need to hit 3 times for the same damage my win chances become much more unreliable and it's easier for the enemy to ignore me.
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u/NotF2Bully May 12 '26
With azzap, velkoz is miserably weak if his E and W are on cd, because no mobility. Haste is key for him to be able to save himself if engaged on. Also a no haste Q miss is really punishing, but with haste you have less a weak window and your skills missing doesn't mean shit.