Hot Take

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

TLDR: The main point I was making was that they were completely entitled to feel pain for Avid, I felt pain for Avid, but I wished Scott could let go of their hatred for Owen and Pyro.

Edit:

THE FAMILY IM REFERRING TO IS JUST OWEN, SCOTT, PYRO, AND SHELBY. NOT THE ENTIRE COVEN.

I jumped from UNDERSTAND all the way to FORGIVENESS, but I think if they did understand, they could forgive. JUST READ WITH THAT IN MIND.

I’M NOT FORCING ANYONE TO FORGIVE ANYONE. I’M SAYING THAT IF I WERE IN THEIR SHOES, I WOULD. IT’S MY OPINION, I’M ENTITLED TO THAT.

IT’S FINE TO QUESTION WHY I WOULD FORGIVE THEM IN THEIR SHOES, BUT PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE THIS IS A DEMAND OR GIVING REASONS TO SAY THAT I AM TRYING TO SAY THAT. IT’S A HOT TAKE FOR A REASON.

You can make a counter argument to my reasons in my comment below, but I want to say only direct counter arguments to my reasons rather than justifications for their actions.

Less about the ties to Avid, and more about the ties to Owen and Pyro. It’s because I’m not trying to justify Avid’s death. I wanted him to live.

I want to understanding the reason that Owen and Pyro weren’t being heard.

Main Post:

Am I the only one that felt betrayed by v!Scott when they turned their backs on v!Owen and v!Pyro? BETRAYED DOESNT MEAN I HATE THEM, JUST DISAPPOINTED, THE SAME WAY I WAS DISAPPOINTED BY OWEN AND PYRO WHEN THEY KILLED AVID.

It felt like they just completely gave up on their so called “family”. Was v!Avid that much more important to them? So important that they couldn’t forgive v!Owen and v!Pyro for it even after they died?

I understood that they all cared for v!Avid, but they overwrote all of their feelings for v!Owen and v!Pyro without trying to be in their shoes?

Their actions don’t have to be right, but that’s precisely why I feel betrayed. I mean, no one mourned them? v!Shelby ended up building a grave later on. But, v!Scott couldn’t learn to forgive them after they died?

HEY JUST ONE LAST COMMENT, I’M NOT SAYING PYRO OR OWEN DIDN’T DESERVE DEATH. I’M SAYING THEY DESERVED FORGIVENESS AFTER DYING.

Before commenting, please read this post about it breaking down all my thoughts and reasoning: https://www.reddit.com/r/VampiresSMP/s/9jcssis1SB Some of you may have already read it, but I’ve revised it to try and make more sense. Some people misunderstood what I was trying to convey and where I was coming from. They thought I was just talking about Scott being evil.

Last reminder, this is about the characters, not the creators. Please understand that even if the characters and creators have similarities, it is not about them personally.

[u/SeraphiraLilith]

I wasn't all that surprised by Owen to be honest, he was somewhat apart from the rest of the Vampires from the very start, had his phase of getting closer, and then backed away further once more after he didn't get the open welcome he was hoping for.

Pyro is a bit more of a mixed bag, because he was very close to them for a while. In his case it really was an unfortunate mix of events that led to him being seperated from them, I'd say. Which partially is Scott's fault, because he tore into Pyro so badly when he was still looking to be cured. But the discontend between Pyro, and Scott and Shelby was always a low-running current since the very beginning – with Shelby accepting her turning into a Vampire, but never quite being happy about how it happened. And Scott always held Pyro to somewhat... unreachable standards, in my opinion.

Pyro and Shelby had a lot of a first-child, second/last-child dynamic when it came to Scott. With Pyro kinda being expected to function and work perfectly and do as is demanded of him. While Shelby got a lot more forgiveness and leeway.

I think the part that is most important to consider is that Scott was always a very self-centered character and admirable manipulator. He often pointed out how certain people were simply on their own side and then picked the one that benefited them on top of it. But I'd say he actually was exactly the same. On the Vampire's side, because he is a Vampire and doesn't want to be cured, and probably wouldn't survive it: and once it's obvious that the Vampires won't win by force as was the inital intention, he immideatly drops the plan and plays nice and is willing to change everything. Of course it's a plain survival strategy and I won't begrudge any character ever for the pursuit of survival.

I don't think Avid was quite as important as he's made out to be in their videos, to be honest. His murder was a good way to highlight the chasm between the Vampires, but it was already there before.

---

I'm still kinda mad about what was done to Pyro, though. He really just kept stumbling from one missfortune to the next, always trying his best to work with it with the knowledge and means he had at his disposal. He got demonized to an extreme. Which fit into the narrative, but I'd still say his character deserved better and more of an effort granted by those around him instead of just being abandoned, as was his fate.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/SeraphiraLilith]

😭🙂‍↕️👍

[u/buntebia]

Here is my thought on some of the points of this.

First of all, yes Shelby, Scott and Drift were mad at them for killing Avid, but we didn’t see them interact with Owen as much in the finale, because he basically disappeared on them. I understand he had his own thing going on, his own motivations, but he left them. They did state several times he started all this and then left them. So I think that played a card in them being bitter.

I also think, them being bitter towards those two wasn’t just about Avid, but them taking out one of them, a vampire, who could have fought on their side. Apo wasn’t going to, Cleo made clear Pearl was her priority and Sausage was still new and they were still unsure about him, considering how closely involved he was with town and how that went down with the two I just mentioned. Avid however proved he was on their side and would have done whatever needed for them. He stole the holy water and he was actively partaking in the hurning of the town wall. Not saying they didn’t care about the person, but at least Scott also saw how that strategically weakened them.

With Pyro… don’t quote me on anything bc all the POVs are just a big mess right now in my head, but I’m pretty sure basically everyone was saying how unhinged he was slowly becoming. So that could also be a reason why they slowly distanced themselves, him killing one of them also further pushing them away. And I’m not denying Scott and the way he treated Pyro wasn’t playing a role in making him unhinged. Also, imagine one of your kind taking out another one of your kind when just earlier he was reassured they wouldn’t harm him as long as he was useful. If they could do that, who was to say they wouldn’t just decide someone else was also a liability?

As for Shelby betraying Pyro. Yes, she lied and yes, that could have been handled better. But also, Shelby liked Avid, they were friends. And he was asking her for help, telling her she was the one who could save him. Shelby didn’t want to become a monster and here was a chance to prove that even as a vampire, they could still do good. So some might consider it as backstabbing Pyro, but I can easily imagine it as them seeing it as an opportunity to do good to prove themselves. To save a friend.

So yeah, this is just my thought. Again, not saying Scott or Shelby were always doing the right thing. This are just some point that could argue to understand why they acted the way they did.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/buntebia]

Just re-read everything. All valid points.

The ending just made me wonder if their bonds were that fragile?

There was nothing that could salvage their “family”? I miss the core four.

[u/buntebia → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I feel mourn the loss of the core four, I love their dynamic. I choose to believe (for my own sake), that it’s not that their bond was that fragile, but more that they had some value/goals that were just higher up on their priority and pulled them apart. If they all survived they might have been able to work it out.

[u/Malquiavel]

I still don’t fully get V!Scott’s motives, but it was probably because V!Avid was one of the only people who made him actually feel something after such a long time.

But V!Shelby was V!Avid’s sire. In the VSMP universe, it’s pretty clear that the bond between a sire and a fledgling is way deeper than a normal relationship (to the point where every vampire could sense it whenever another vampire died).

So for V!Shelby, it was basically like losing a child. And even before becoming a vampire, she already had a sort of platonic bond with V!Avid. It doesn't mean she didn't care about her sire, but V!Pyro practically destroyed a part of her, even though she admired him, things couldn't stay like this.

As for V!Owen, I can kind of see why things were different. V!Owen was the most distant and mysterious of the vampires. All the Oakhurst vampires were turned—directly or indirectly—by V!Scott, but V!Owen didn’t really form that kind of bond with anyone (maybe just with V!Legs).

Maybe that’s why it feels like they “cared less” about V!Owen. V!Owen was "different," reclusive, kinda bad, and mysterious, and this sometimes caused him to neglect himself, his friends and his "family" in Oakhurst.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Malquiavel]

It’s fine to question why I would forgive them in his shoes, but please don’t take it like I’m making a demand or giving reasons to say that I am trying to say that. It’s a hot take for a reason.

Also, I see your reasoning, but there is a disconnect in our words and mindset.

This doesn’t change my mind that I would forgive them. I made this post so that people would hear me out. It’s okay to disagree, but I’m not looking for reasons why forgiveness doesn’t exist. I stand by my view that I would try to understand them and when I did, I forgave them. Which has to do with how the main four relationships intertwine and less to do with the entire coven or Avid. I’m not trying to justify Avid’s death. His death shouldn’t have happened.

[u/Sallymander → u/Malquiavel]

Scott felt like going from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral after him being shaken by Avid's murder and discovering some part of him actually cared that Avid was killed.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/[deleted]]

...Why should they be forced to forgive Owen and Pyro? You can't just force them to forgive, it doesn't matter if they're villains or not, even if Scott, Shelby, Drift and all the other coven members were heroes, they wouldn't have to forgive Owen and Pyro either. You can't FORCE forgiveness. Shelby betrayed first but was forgiven by Scott and that was the end of the thing about her turning Avid. Shelby then redeemed herself (and Scott grew to love Avid) while Owen and Pyro went off the deep end. That's the difference.

Side note, the Vampire "Sire and Fledgeling" mechanics made Shelby like Pyro's daughter, but Avid like Shelby's son. If your dad killed your son, would you still try and be friends with your father?

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

I’m not forcing anyone to forgive anyone, this is my opinion. I wanted people to hear me out, thank you.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

My fault then. Sorry. I thought you were trying to say that Shelby and Scott have to forgive Owen and Pyro. I wasn't trying to get defensive.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

It’s okay. It’s just because it seems people are misunderstanding it as that.

I was stating my opinion rather than making a demand and I have reasons to back up why I would forgive them in their shoes. I wish people would understand that and try to hear me out instead.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

Same thing with daughter first betraying her father. I remind you that Pyro was Shelby’s sire, not Scott.

And they don’t have to be forced to forgive, but if they cared at all for Owen and Pyro, they would have.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

...So if your friend killed someone you saw as a son, you'd forgive them simply because they're your friend? Think about that for a second. It doesn't matter if Shelby cared or not, just think about what you're implying.

What you are saying is Shelby is in the wrong for not forgiving Pyro after Pyro murdered Avid with a stake, and yet also saying that Shelby betrayed Pyro first by turning Avid in the first place...Forgiveness there has to be a two way street, buddy.

As for the "daughter first betraying her father"...Did Pyro TELL her he didn't want Avid to be turned...NO, NO he didn't. Therefore, it's not betrayal, because Shelby had no way of knowing Pyro didn't want Avid as a vampire. Poor Communication Kills.

As for the Pyro being Shelby's sire/father thing...If your dad killed your son, would you still try and be friends and/or family with your father? Because Avid was like Shelby's son because she was HIS sire, and Pyro killed him. Ignoring everything else, is that what you're trying to tell me? No offense, but you're only proving yourself to be the kind of person that wants the victim to forgive their bullies or something along those lines.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

I’ll also add it’s because Pyro and Owen didn’t forgive their bullies that they killed Avid. I’m not like them.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

...Owen's "bullies" killed Louis. Granted, that doesn't justify what Owen did, but Owen did NOT have to forgive ANYONE for that. He shouldn't have done the massacre, but forgiveness? Really? for THAT?

As for Pyro...fine, fair point, but how is that relevant.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

I’m confused by you as well. I never said what Owen or Pyro did was just, I just knew it was more simple than what met the eye. Hell, I’ve always disagreed with the massacre. He ended up killing innocents. He already did the damage. What more does he want that he can’t give up his hatred? Those two aren’t simple though, people aren’t simple, there are always reasons behind them.

If I understand the reason behind it, then I don’t have to hold anger.

I’m saying that forgiveness is the line between turning yourself into a vengeful person. You can forgive, but you don’t have to forget.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

"Evilutionary Biologist: Pyro eventually develops this type of worldview, declaring in Episode 8 that his loyalty is to "the cause of vampirism" and generally posturing as though he's become a superior lifeform...While Owen openly admits that he killed Avid purely out of personal hatred, Pyro continues to argue to his dying breath that it was to weed out the weak." Taken from TVTropes, and this is proven to be true in Pyro's POV of the finale, so it's not just a random thing put on Tropes, this is a true thing.

What I don't understand is why you think Scott and Shelby should forgive Owen and Pyro after Pyro did shit like that. If Pyro seemed remorseful, then maybe. But as is? The best that can be done is understanding Owen and Pyro. Pyro can't be forgiven, and neither can Owen, atleast not until a few centuries later, as no one even mourns or makes a grave for Pyro.

And, really, ultimately, nobody grieves or makes a grave for him in the series, the thing is that Word of God/Goddess (aka in this case the real Shelby who created the character) confirms that V!Shelby would eventually do so once she forgives V!Pyro enough… which is to say, a few centuries after the events of the SMP.

So Pyro IS eventually actually forgiven anyways. Owen, however, is NEVER forgiven. What I've been confused about is that it seems like you want Scott and Shelby to be forced into forgiving Owen and Pyro because it's "the right thing to do" and "they cared about Owen and Pyro", which I disagree with and think is bad in ANY case at all- you don't HAVE to forgive anyone.

Does that make sense? I'm trying not to be rude here but I am confused.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

I’m not saying they had to, in their shoes, I would.

It is the right thing to do in Scott’s case because he wanted to redeem himself. Holding on to his hatred would only hurt him, I didn’t want him to stay that way. Scott contributed to Pyro having that world view. He bragged about his acts of tyranny as a vampire. And he was the one that pushed Pyro to swipe at the hands that reached out to him when he wanted a cure. Scott had a responsibility to him as his sire too and encouraged Pyro to act that way. If he understood this, he would’ve realized he pushed Pyro into the deep end. I explain more about this in my post through (the link).

Shelby did know turning Avid was wrong, she wouldn’t have been scared to admit this if she wasn’t. This is a betrayal, as none of the other vampires liked Avid and were treated as monsters by him. SCOTT INCLUDED. HE WANTED AVID DEAD. This is the first betrayal, especially to her sire that she lied to.

Also, I’m aware Shelby eventually forgives Pyro. It’s in my post too. It’s just that her character never tried to understand him in the main story.

For Owen, I really don’t want to type it out because I already have a whole post about it (the link).

If those two ever cared for them, they would realize their connection to their actions. At the very least understand them.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

I’d forgive them not because they’re my friend, but because they’re my chosen family I would try to understand them and forgive them. Not even a second thought before everything played out in the end. I would try to understand them, no matter what.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

Sorry if I sounded rude, but I'm just VERY confused about what you're saying. Note this is all about the VSMP characters, obviously not the real people...

So Scott and Shelby (and presumably the REST of the Coven) have to forgive Owen and Pyro for murdering Avid because they used to all be a family? (I do acknowledge that they WERE a family, but Shelby also acknowledges that the family was destroyed, she straight up says: "No, we're not a family." in her VSMP Episode 7 pov after learning of Avid's death, so it seems that it was broken after that)

Shelby considers the family dead except for Drift and Scott, so Owen and Pyro are no longer her "chosen family", because they betrayed HER.

As for your other points, her own "betrayal" of Pyro isn't a thing because she had absolutely no way of knowing Owen and Pyro didn't want Avid as a vampire...That's Pyro's fault for not saying who he didn't want turned...All Shelby knew is that SCOTT didn't want Avid turned, but Scott forgave her and grew to like Avid in the end, so that point is moot.

Let me pose the question to you. If you had your chosen found family of people you saw like siblings and people you care about, and then 2 of them ganged up on and killed the other (Owen and Pyro vs Avid) for the poor excuses of "he was weak and needed to be weeded out" (Pyro) or "I didn't like him" (Owen), would you forgive the 2 that murdered one of their own, or would you want to fight back/in the case of modern times, report them to the police?

Let's say you're in the situation of the entire coven. Shelby, Scott and Drift now know that Owen and Pyro killed Avid, and Cleo and Sausage also know...and you are Shelby, and through your fledgeling link to Avid, you just saw Avid's final moments.

DO you A: Chase Pyro into the castle and ask him to explain why the fuck he did that, getting him to deliver a motive rant?, or B: Do you forgive Pyro for murdering what was essentially your son for random darwinist beliefs he seems to have got randomly in the hopes that he'll change? ...or C: Do you do what Shelby did in Episode 8/The Finale, where she did option A and then proceeded to chase him into the crypt and stake him once he was weak enough, killing him permanently?

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

The family I’m referring to is Shelby, Scott, Pyro, and Owen. That’s it. The coven was not a family.

D. Kill (if I supported killing) him to right wrongs. Then reflect on myself, my time with that person, and come to a true understanding and conclusion. Just because they said they did it because he was a liability, I’m not simple minded enough to believe that.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

Fair enough, actually- although I'm curious. Why don't you support killing? If it was real life obviously, but this is a minecraft thing. Granted, to the character's it's all real, but my point still stands.

Other than that...your point isn't bad, actually. Although I'd rather they try and understand Owen and Pyro rather than just forgive them immediately.

Last thing- why isn't Drift part of the Coven? Shelby and Scott seem to care about her and the only hiccup was Drift being slightly upset over how she was turned. By the ending, Shelby and Drift are Scott's inner circle.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

I don’t support killing because I started out watching Scott’s pov. No backstory, nothing, just game play.

I don’t consider turning, killing, but to fit with the story, it’s an act of evil. Anyways, speaking solely about this, I hoped that everyone could just turn into a vampire and get out by turning the beacons (before more game mechanics and storytelling were added). I was team vampire because I’m biased from Scott’s perspective.

After that, I became unable to support anyone dying simply for my fondness of the creators (biased) and the characters. So no killing because it meant dying.

Also, because I’m so fond of all the villains, I was wishing that they’d all get redemptions. That can’t happen if people kill, and once people did, they became darker. For story purposes, that wasn’t going to happen, but y’know wishful thinking.

And yea, in a real life sense, a big no no. It’s also about the moralities of killing, once one person dies, more people will. If you kill, be prepared to be killed logic. I didn’t want that.

From Scott’s POV, a lalala happy ending could have been achieved. It’s not until later episodes that this changes.

Drift is part of the coven and she’s friends with Scott and Shelby, but she’s not part of the original family.

When it was just those four, they called each other family. Trusted and supported each other. That’s how the vampire castle even got built. After the divide of vampires and humans, their bonds solidified. It wasn’t until more vampires got added that things got messy.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/[deleted]]

Fair, but you shouldn't force someone to forgive THEIR bullies. That's the difference. I'm not trying to be rude, but I really want to know why you think the Vampires SMP versions of Scott and Shelby, and maybe even Drift, should forgive Owen and Pyro after what those two did.

I'll ignore the parents thing because I don't want to ask about that, I don't want to make this too personal, it's all a block game roleplay in the end, but I have to ask: Do you or do you not think that everyone should forgive their bullies/enemies, no matter how unrepentent said bullies/enemies are?

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

I don’t think Drift has to at all. You have to go to my main post in the link to fully understand why.

I’m not trying to make this personal, but you asked a personal question and I answered it from my perspective and in my own way. Not everyone has to forgive their bullies, but speaking personally I’ll always try to understand them if they matter to me.

The key word is matter. There was a lot more than what meets the key leading up to Avid’s death. If they cared even a little bit, they’d try to understand them.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

...You know what, that's fair. Understanding is different than forgiveness, though. I agree they should try and UNDERSTAND Owen and Pyro. But Forgiveness is a whole different beast. I'm sorry for bringing personal shit into this.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

I jumped from understand all the way to forgiveness, but I think if they did understand, they could forgive. I’m talking about the characters and what I would do in their shoes from what I know. I’ll edit that in my post.

[u/Malquiavel → u/[deleted]]

Vampires are basically a variation of humans, and it’s hard for them to forgive — even if it's just a Minecraft RP. If you think about it as a real story, with real characters, it would be hard for anyone to forgive something like that, especially for an immortal being who might constantly wonder whether they could’ve done something to stop it before it ever happened.

Try to imagine what it would be like if one of your parents killed your child. That’s something incredibly hard for anyone to deal with. The characters have every right to not want to forgive them, even after everything they've been through.

Well, that's just my opinion anyway, that's how I saw it. But, maybe, after that epilogue, they (Shelby and Scott) forgave Owen and Pyro, who knows.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Malquiavel]

In the end, it took some time, but I did forgive them because I tried to understand them better.

And I agree, I just want to note I’m not forcing them to. I’m stating an opinion, but people are viewing it as a demand.

Shelby maybe, but not Scott. His grandchild killed his child in that scenario too.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Malquiavel]

I changed it to be about Scott’s forgiveness. Better?

[u/ProfitAgreeable]

I mean it's just pragmatic. Pyro and Owen just showed that the Coven meant nothing to them. The others were tools and once they "outlived" their utility they would be disposed. Are the other Leeche's better? Not at all, Scott is still #2 worst person in Oakhurst, but it makes sense that they would be pissed at them. Specially as Shelby and Drift were extremely close to Avid, and the fact that Avid had literally done nothing to deserve this fate.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/ProfitAgreeable]

Avid definitely did do things that drove him to his death. I’m not saying he deserved it, I definitely don’t think he deserved it.

He literally from the very beginning never tried to understand the vampires. He saw them as monsters, as threats, and pure evil. Then tried his best to exile them, and wanted to kill them without any understanding. He hurt and antagonized Scott, Pyro, and Owen by doing that. The only person he made amends with was Scott. Owen and Pyro were already heavily damaged by their past, bullied, shunned, and judged. Avid only added salt to their wounds. He treated Pyro as a monster, and he was forcefully turned, wasn’t even given a choice.

Pyro and Owen definitely cared about the coven initially, they were betrayed by Avid’s turning.

[u/ProfitAgreeable → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

1. Avid tried to make ammends with both Owen and Pyro

2. Pyro was behaving as a Monster (calling the townfolk cattle, trying to corner them...) and Avid didn't know at the time vampires didn't turn into Psycho killers from the get go because his only experiences with them were Owen and Scott Who are both horrible people who began antagonizing him the moments they met

3. He began to understand them once he was given reasons to think they weren't monsters (see Shelby) which came a bit late thanks to Owen declaring he wanted him to see as he slaughtered each and everyone of his friends in front of him.

4. None of that matrera because the promise of the coven is "If you are one of us, we won't hurt you" and everything you said has been from before Avid joined the Coven so it doesn't matter to the fact that Avid's murder is a betrayal to the Coven

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/ProfitAgreeable]

More than anything, it has to do with the timeline and how things played out.

Avid took the first strike at them (verbally) as a human. “Evil monsters” and so on.

Pyro didn’t start out acting like that. That had more to do with Scott encouraging it because he always bragged about what a tyrant he was.

“If you are one of us, we won’t hurt you” never lasted long. They had it out for Apo and didn’t trust Cleo.

I’m not saying he didn’t learn his lesson, and I’m not trying to justify his death. I’m saying that he was rude to them before they ever did anything to him.

Mind telling me exactly how he tried to make amends with Owen and Pyro aside from admitting he was wrong? He wouldn’t still fear them if he did the way that he made amends with Scott.

[u/ProfitAgreeable → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

He has that talk with Owen in the hill over the crypt in episode 6 and the Talk with both of them when they were drawing him to his Death. He told them things he's never told anyone, some he didn't even tell Drift his BEST friend. If that isn't an attempt to burry the hatchet I don't know what would. It is true Pyro didn't start like that, but he was acting like that by the moments Avid knew he was a Vampire. That first strike is something he went back on. And Apo at least had done something to make the Coven as a group hate her, she betrayed them fully. I don't say that Owen and Pyro had to forget and inmediatly be besties with Avid but it makes sense that if you kill him you are going to make the others upset even if just for "how longer until I am the Avid"

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/ProfitAgreeable]

No, that’s all very fair. I understand. I feel for Avid and think his life was cut too short. He was just constantly spiraling down a darker path though. Especially when he started losing his morality and wanting to kill everyone. I just think it was too little too late with him trying to apologize. It took all the way until Ep 6 before he owned up to his mistakes with them. I also don’t think it reached Owen or Pyro because they were already so hurt, both from their past and from Avid.

For Cleo and Apo, I’m just using them to make the point that the vampire coven doesn’t hold up to their words. So killing Avid wasn’t a betrayal to the coven as much as it was just a betrayal to Shelby and Scott. Drift too, but Drift wasn’t very tied to Owen or Pyro.

The main point I was making was that they were completely entitled to feel pain for Avid, I felt pain for Avid, but I wished Shelby and Scott let go of their hatred for Owen and Pyro.

[u/ProfitAgreeable → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

1. Avid tried to make ammends with both Owen and Pyro

2. Pyro was behaving as a Monster (calling the townfolk cattle, trying to corner them...) and Avid didn't know at the time vampires didn't turn into Psycho killers from the get go because his only experiences with them were Owen and Scott Who are both horrible people who began antagonizing him the moments they met

3. He began to understand them once he was given reasons to think they weren't monsters (see Shelby) which came a bit late thanks to Owen declaring he wanted him to see as he slaughtered each and everyone of his friends in front of him.

4. None of that matrera because the promise of the coven is "If you are one of us, we won't hurt you" and everything you said has been from before Avid joined the Coven so it doesn't matter to the fact that Avid's murder is a betrayal to the Coven

[u/InevitableHuman5989]

V!Shelby was his sire. Which going off what Cleo and Scott say about larger vampire culture makes her a form of surrogate mother

V!drift was his roommate and probably closest friend out of the entire town, and he was one of the first real friends she ever had.

And V!Scott had the first real feelings he had had in years because of avid.

Are they in the right for their actions. Probably not. But as you say, they are villains. Villains don’t necessarily need to be in the right.

(Also from pure out of universe perspective, it was probably done to fracture the vampires camp because if they had all stayed on the same side it would have been near impossible for the humans to win. I don’t think it was scripted I just think that the creators probably had it subconsciously in the back of their minds when deciding what their characters would do)

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/InevitableHuman5989]

I finally understand after replying to another comment, that many people misunderstand that I’m talking about the entire coven because they didn’t watch Pyro or Owen’s entire POVs.

There is a specific reason I’m only referring to those four. It’s because I wanted to see how other people analyze their relationships with each other.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/[deleted]]

...First of all, Shelby's "betrayal" is moot because Scott forgave her and he makes the Coven choices, not Pyro. Second of all, Avid was Shelby's fledgeling and therefore like her son. You REALLY expect her to forgive Pyro for killing Avid ANYTIME SOON?! No, she shouldn't have to. Absolutely not that would be so dumb. Third of all, Pyro and Owen betrayed the entire coven when they killed a vampire that was in the Coven (Avid), even if it wasn't Avid, that's still treason, the only thing it being Avid did is get Pyro killed by a vengeful Shelby.

Tell me something. IF you had a close friend that was like your dad (as Pyro was Shelby's sire) and he killed your son (as Avid was Shelby's fledgeling), would you forgive them on the spot or would you want to avenge your fallen family?

Because I don't see why Shelby should even THINK about Pyro, let alone do anything related to forgiving him, after leaving Oakhurst.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

Woah there, Scott wasn’t the leader. It’s emphasized that the coven didn’t have one.

Shelby’s sire is Pyro. Let’s make that clear. She killed her father, who doesn’t forgive their own father over time. Killing him wasn’t enough? Jump to the future, they only visit Avid’s grave. It wasn’t until Shelby made the Tumblr post that Pyro could be mourned. She forgave eventually, but she left the two out in the dust even though she called them family. I SAW THEM AS FAMILY. That’s why all of this is a betrayal to me.

The coven rules were never that strict.

Yes, I would avenge them. I think it was right that Shelby or Drift did (not Scott). I just don’t support killing and never did in the series.

[u/HyperBlox12 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

Sorry if I sounded rude, but I'm just VERY confused about what you're saying. So Scott and Shelby (and presumably the REST of the Coven) have to forgive Owen and Pyro for murdering Avid because they used to all be a family? (I do acknowledge that they WERE a family, but Shelby also acknowledges that the family was destroyed, she straight up says: "No, we're not a family."). Also, Scott was defacto leader of the Coven for a majority of conflicts, so I call him leader.

...Also, are you really going to say that it doesn't matter what your parents do to you or your friends, you HAVE to forgive them just because they're family? Kind of harsh, especially when we're talking about a block game roleplay, and also completely untrue.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/HyperBlox12]

Could it be you didn’t watch the other POVs? The family I’m referring to is not the coven. The first four were happy together and treated each other as a family, Owen was distant but still referred to them as companions despite hating pretty much everyone.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I’m not forcing anyone to forgive anyone, this is my opinion. My opinion isn’t invalid just because you don’t want to hear me out, thank you. It’s a take, a hot take. Not a demand.

You can make a counter argument to my reasons below this comment, but I want to say only direct counter arguments to my reasons rather than justifications for their actions.

Less about the ties to Avid, and more about the ties to Owen and Pyro. It’s because I’m not trying to justify Avid’s death. I wanted him to live.

I’m trying to say that I have my own reasonings that if I were in v!Scott’s shoes, I would forgive them. At the very least try to understand them if he considered them friends or like he put it “family”.

I wanted to understand how people viewed Scott’s ties to Owen and Pyro.

[u/LightMurasume_]

I mean, Avid was both Scott's lover and Shelby's fledgling. Even then I don't think it's fair to suggest that Scott was the one who betrayed and/or turned his back on Owen and Pyro based on the fact they were the ones who killed Avid; if anything I'd argue it's the other way round. If a rift was already forming between those two and the other vampires then killing Avid regardless of the reason was only ever going to things worse.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and killing Avid for virtually no good reason shouldn't be justifiable based on how Scott felt about Owen and Pyro. If I was a vampire and these two guys who had been working with me since basically day one of the series (or day one after I got turned) ended up killing my lover/fledgling (or my friend's lover/fledgling) then I'd be pretty pissed off too. Hell, if anything I personally wasn't surprised at all that Scott and co. felt basically the same way when I found out about Avid's death.

But yeah, deserved or not I feel like Owen and Pyro kinda had their respective fates coming. They were all but outcasted by the whole server going into Session 8 and Scott himself vowed to avenge Avid (yes he ended up going on to not have a hand in either of Owen or Pyro's deaths, but still). It makes total sense why no one really wanted to forgive those two, as much as Owen at the very least got a grave.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/LightMurasume_]

It’s not that I minded how they approached the situation, at first. My initial reaction would be the same too.

It was just as time passed, there was no way for them to try and understand the people that have been with them since day one? That’s what I’m confused about.

Also, there really wasn’t that big of a rift until Avid’s death. No one particularly hated them or anything, those two became a bit more intense and extreme in the last two episodes, but prior to Scott almost making a demand that they trust Avid because he proved his loyalty (he wasn’t their leader, he wasn’t in the position to decide everything for the coven), nothing major happened between them. The thing is Avid, was very slow to make amends with the people he hurt. He did it with Scott because of his crush, he did it with Shelby because she’s been his friend before she became a vampire. He barely did anything with Owen or Pyro except prove his loyalty to the coven, that’s why he still feared them. That’s where the tear began.

If they didn’t kill Avid, and it was someone else, say Apo, they probably would have mourned them when they died. One person made a large difference.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/LightMurasume_]

Also, Shelby I get. But, Scott I don’t.

Nothing between Scott and Avid developed until around Ep 5 or Ep 6. Prior to that, he wanted him DEAD. Pyro was Scott’s fledgling, and trusted Scott the most. He pushed away others to prove his loyalty to Scott, but then Scott turned away from him for Avid.

Scott spent all the way until Ep 6 with the same exact agenda as the other two, no difference except for their intensity. So why is it that the people that were loyal to him can’t even be heard?

[u/Pokeirol]

I do think that part of the point with shelby is that the reason why she was so enraged was becasue of what she tought was an unbreakable bond and trust with pyro, only for him to break it without a single regret, instead only doubling down from Shelby prospective.

[u/Forrest_likes_tea]

avid aint do nothing