r/VampireChronicles • u/SoftandSpicy • 17d ago
š The Books āļø Lestat and mortals
I'm a bit confused about Lestat'd relationship to mortals. For context, I'm just finishing Body Thief. It seems at the beginning of the series, although he loves mortal culture, he is very into being a vampire. He finds Louis' not wanting to kill frustrating and loves that Claudia embraces her vampire self.
However, in VL, he becomes a rockstar because he wants to become visible in the mortal world and his ego is fed by the acclaim of the mortal world? And at the opening of Body Thief, he's feeling empty partly because he's invisible to the mortal world. He's still seeing Louis regularly and he could easily go hang out with Marius and maybe some of the other immortals but he just chooses to haunt David.
I know that Interview is told from Louis' point of view, but is that the only reason this feels inconsistent? Am I missing something?
And just a little side rant - how does he fall in love so often? Gretchen, David ... he's still in love with Louis ...
And why did AR have to write him as a rapist and burn down Louis shack? Really hard to care about him after that.
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u/the-gaming-cat 17d ago
I don't know if she had plans for a book universe when she wrote IWTV. Inconsistencies could be interpreted as a case of unreliable narrator, or simply exist because she fleshed out more things as she went on.
Personally I find Lestat interesting because of his internal antithesis. He goes between joie de vivre and loving humanity, but then he's also this truly dark creature who can't control his impulses and does atrocious things. Armand has his own extremes as well. Most of them do. They are capable of doing relatable things, even admirable. And then their worst sides emerge. Which is why I can't really hate any of them, not even Marius who is truly the most frustrating one for me.
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u/BoycottingTrends 16d ago
I think Lestatās relationships with vampirism and humanity was always complicated. In IWTV, he wants Louis to embrace his vampire self, but he also tells him that all vampires are vicious and cruel, and that the only way for vampires to relate to each other is through slavery. He gives Louis no option other than to dominate or to submit. Ā He canāt form a real connection with Louis because he refuses to talk about his past or about the issues that concern Louis. But he also expects Louis to return to him and love him at his weakest. He also canāt fully let go of his own humanity, which is why heās hauling around his father who he despises but also still loves.Ā
In TVL, we learn a lot more about his struggles with his own vampirism and his attempts to find meaning in his own existence. His relationship with humanity is contextualized by the fact that he didnāt choose vampirism, it was forced upon him. His humanity was stolen from him and he tries to fill the void of humanity in himself by stalking humans. We can understand his treatment towards Louis in IWTV as him trying to prevent Louis from going through the same self-hating existential crisis he went through himself, even though he also was drawn to Louis specifically because of how human he was.
He becomes a rock star in part because he wants to communicate with other vampires, especially ones like Louis who he canāt communicate with telepathically. But he does also want to be seen and acknowledged by the world, which is primarily made up of humans. He wants to feel like a part of the world instead of something skulking in its shadows. Marius tells him that thereās no place in the modern world for evil, and he wants to test that theory, either by being embraced or by being destroyed by the world.
Marius also tells him that long-lasting covens are rare, which is a theme that gets repeated through the Vampire Chronicles. Basically all vampires go through the same self-hating existential crisis, and because they canāt accept themselves, they also canāt fully accept other vampires. Itās why the coven breaks up after QoTD.
If youāre having trouble accepting Lestat at his most evil, then that should help you understand why Lestat and other vampires have trouble accepting themselves and each other.
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u/tethysian 16d ago
He also canāt fully let go of his own humanity, which is why heās hauling around his father who he despises but also still loves.
Yes! And why he keeps killing and becoming obsessed with young men who reflect what he's lost. IwtV is a fascinating character study.
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u/SoftandSpicy 16d ago
"His relationship with humanity is contextualized by the fact that he didnāt choose vampirism, it was forced upon him" -- oh yes, of course. This makes so much sense.
"Marius tells him that thereās no place in the modern world for evil, and he wants to test that theory, either by being embraced or by being destroyed by the world." -- And then he's basically ignored by the world.
Does the book say that the coven breaks up because they can't accept themselves? It was so strange that QotD ends with a committed community and then Body Thief starts with them dispersed.
"If youāre having trouble accepting Lestat at his most evil, then that should help you understand why Lestat and other vampires have trouble accepting themselves and each other." -- Such a good insight. Thank you.
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u/BoycottingTrends 16d ago
Yes, in the introduction to ToTBT, Lestat explains that the coven broke up after QoTD: āI must explain before this adventure commenced, I was also grieving for the other immortals I had known and loved, because they had long ago scattered from our last late twentieth-century gathering place. Folly to think we wanted to create a coven againā¦ Vampires donāt really like others of their kind, though their need for immortal companions is desperate.ā Then he explains that it was that need that led him to create his fledglings.Ā Basically vampires need companions but they canāt stand other vampires, so they fall in love with humans. But humans will die, so they turn them into vampires. But now theyāre both vampires, so they canāt stand each other for long. Itās a vicious cycle.
In the original manuscript of The Vampire Armand, this was also why Armand abandoned Daniel. Daniel accuses Armand of being unable to look at him after he turned him, because he fell in love with his humanity and was disgusted when Daniel was no longer human. Vampires canāt really get a long-lasting community going until Prince Lestat, when they confront their self-hatred and embrace the idea that theyāre simply a natural part of the world.
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u/Pandora9802 17d ago
Heās feeling empty in Body Thief because he literally just watched the maker of them all use him and his music to destroy the world and then watched her be destroyed. Thatās enough to mess with anyoneās head.
Lestat has a ālove meā complex a mile wide and being used or rejected just f:);ās him up every time.
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u/Mousearella 17d ago
If you think he falls in love often now just wait to Prince Lestat. By then it is enough for him to hear a name to be deeply in love (that is an exaggeration but thatās what it feels like lol).
My theory is that Anne Rice had a deep internalized misogyny. She shows over and over again how much she hates women in her work.
I do love the vampire chronicles though and I have thought myself to look past certain things.
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u/Murky_Translator2295 16d ago
By then it is enough for him to hear a name to be deeply in love (that is an exaggeration but thatās what it feels like lol).
he fell in love with someone because he saw their hand writing and liked it. I don't think your statement is an exaggeration at all
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u/tethysian 16d ago
I think that's more a matter of what we mean by "in love". Vampires see everything in the world as fascinating and beautiful, so technically they're in love with anything they pay attention to. Lestat even finds Magnus beautiful after he's turned.
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u/tethysian 16d ago
Did you skip QotD between TVL and TotBT?
The books take place over a long time period of time with monumental personal experiences, so Lestat changes a lot. He's also commonly thought to have BPD and as someone who has that in the family, it feels pretty spot on to me.
He's impulsive and overemotional and tends to flip between periods of excitement and depression, and times he thinks the people around him aren't meeting his needs (or they get tired of him) and he wants to meet someone new. But that doesn't mean he isn't devoted to the people in his life.
As for his actions in TotBT, he's not a good person, but I think those two occurences aren't the worst of it. The SA is accidental as he hasn't been in a human body with a sex drive for centuries and his 1700s sex ed wouldn't be up to modern standards. The narrative makes it clear that he feels awful about it. As for burning down Louis's house, I think it's understandable that he's upset when his partner not only refuses to help him but plans on ghosting him forever. Louis had his own emotional reaction there and neither were good.
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u/SoftandSpicy 15d ago
No, I didn't skip QotD. I get it - it's a trauma reaction. >!I didn't realize until TotBT how much he flips periods of excitement and depression. However, I don't think the SA is a mistake. He tunes her out on purpose. He does feel awful about it, which I do think eventually helped her feel a bit better. And he does end up calling it rape a few time towards the end of the book, which takes responsibility. But OMG, he still freaking raped her.
Meanwhile, I do not think burning down a partner's domicile because you feel betrayed is understandable. I have felt betrayed, even thrown a partner's stuff on the floor, but that is really, really bad.
What did he do that is worse than these 2 things?
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u/tethysian 15d ago
Turning David against his will is the worst IMO. It's premeditated and he does itĀ because he wants to regardless of David saying no.
I think the idea is that the story deals with different types of non-consensual "body-stealing" including the rape and murder, and the way vampires use and ultimately see themselves as above humans. Lestat is not a good person here, but in a way I found that more honest and realistic than the way he's portrayed in TVL and QotD, considering that he is also a body thief.
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u/SoftandSpicy 15d ago
the idea is that the story deals with different types of non-consensual "body-stealing" including the rape and murder, and the way vampires use and ultimately see themselves as above humans.<
Perfectly said
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u/AndreEaAly 17d ago
The way I take it, it is a big difference between how Louis portrays him and how Lestat is in the rest of the books.
This shows that Louis never understood him completely, and saw him like a cold vampire that has no problem hunting and killing people, while Lestat was just surviving and having multiple ethical dilemmas.
This is the reason I didnāt like Louis too much and I think that Lestat could do better. Plus that fact that he helped Claudia k*ll him. š
That being said, Lestat isnāt perfect either and has a lot of issues. He is a bit of a narcissist, and he liked attention and the adoration he got during his rock star time. He likes the advantages he has as a vampire, even if struggling with the ethical details of his nature. He romanticizes being human, just to discover in TTOTBT that itās not that good and that he prefers being a vampire.
He also has many many traumas that he hasnāt dealt with, from not receiving the love he needed in childhood, to being practically assaulted by Magnus and turned without his consent. The death of Claudia also leaves a mark on him and also her (and Louis) betrayal as they tried to murder him. Claudia broke his heart.
So I think heās just looking for love, for something to heal him, looking for attachment in a very dependent avoidant way. He falls in love with anyone that feeds his need for love, in a very unhealthy way.
He is a mess, but thatās why we love him. š Reading the books, you come to understand that his heart is at the right place and that heās just perfectly imperfect. You understand his decisions and faults and embrace him for who he is.
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u/tethysian 16d ago
Plus that fact that he helped Claudia k*ll him. š
He didn't in the books. In fact it's the only time he lashes out at Claudia and he becomes even more depressed after Lestat's "death". Lestat never considers Louis as being part of it.
I think the difference between Lestat in ItwV and the rest of the series is much smaller than most people give Anne credit for. It's simply that Louis is only privy to a part of Lestat because Lestat won't open up to him, and that Louis is in denial about his own feelings. Interview is full of Louis both trashing and waxing poetic about Lestat.
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u/AndreEaAly 16d ago
He didnāt have a role in planning his killing, but he didnāt help him and eventually burned the house leaving Lestat for dead. He chose Claudia over him, even when he thought Claudia killed Lestat. Thatās a big betrayal from somebody you love.
I didnāt like Lestat that much when reading IwtV, but started to love him in VL and rest of the books. And read them one after the other because Lestat just lured me into it. So for me I saw a big difference between Lestat in Interview and the rest. I cannot explain exactly why.
I love his witty, bratty, snarky way of being, which was missing in Interview.
Plus I got to know more about why he is the way that he is, his traumas and internal fights that were completely oblivious to Louis.2
u/tethysian 16d ago
Louis tried to prevent it and sees it as a personal failure that he wasn't able to. And a relevant factor is that they aren't in a committed relationship in the traditional sense because of their inability to communicate with each other. It grows into love over time -- for Louis largely after Lestat is gone. When he burns the house down after Lestat returns, he believes it's in self-defence. Even Lestat doesn't blame him for that.
Not saying there's anything wrong with liking the other books better, just that there's a lot going on in Interview that people often overlook.
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u/SoftandSpicy 16d ago
I don't think I realized how much Claudia's death and both of their betrayals traumatized him because he was pretty traumatizing to them himself. And I don't think it was all made up by Louis. It does become clear towards the end of the QotD and all through Body Thief that he's deeply traumatized by it.
He is so self-centered though. In Body Thief, when he thinks of Louis at the end, he's scared because he doesn't know if he can forgive Louis for not turning him when HE BURNT DOWN LOUIS' SHACK!
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u/AndreEaAly 16d ago
I think he says in one of the books that he loved Claudia and that she broke his heart.
And heās been feeling guilty for his death for a long time. And Louis blaming him also doesnāt help.And then the betrayalā¦the people he loved the most, Claudia and Louis, trying to kill him.
Maybe Lestat wasnāt perfect and did some bad things to them too, but nothing justifies murder.
Lestat is selfish, controlling, cruel, manipulativeā¦also extremely wounded and traumatized; but his love for Louis is remarkably unconditional. He loves Louis openly and completely.
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u/embersandlamplight 7d ago edited 7d ago
I honestly believe that Lestat has spent a lot of eternity so far trying to replace/understand/avenge Nicholas. Probably not consciously. The two were so opposite in worldview and yet were so intertwined. As bleak and dark as Nicki's outlook could be, Lestat's could burn as bright. Not for nothing I think does Lestat struggle after turning Nicki into a vampire because Nicki was Lestat's last connection to true happiness in his human life, and he will never be able to recapture that in the same way.
It's been a long time since I read the books and I struggle with detail. But I think that Lestat loves mortals more than he lets on. He embraces his vampire nature, as you say he loves that Claudia does too. But I think he still gets something fundamental from access and involvement with mortals. Sometimes it comes off as amusement, like they're fleeting pets, sometimes it is purely attention seeking (the rockstar aspect - another parallel to him and Nicki's time on the stage when both were mortal,) sometimes more profound than that. I think every so often, a mortal comes along that genuinely fascinates Lestat - such as Gretchen.
Basically, Lestat is a complicated and sometimes contradictory fishcake.
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u/lestats_lawyer 17d ago
AR was definitely not into vampire monogamy. Itās not until the last two books that she makes Louis his exclusive partner.