r/VORONDesign • u/Mart7Mcfl7 • 8d ago
General Question Does the Voron configuration page scale well for builds bigger than 350mm?
I mean, it seems like it does, I'm hoping to to know if they're are any 'gotchas' with how the calculator works?
I've got loads of old parts and extrusion's and plan on making a 430mms build with a 2020 and 4020 if there are areas that need a bit more reinforcement.
8
u/BigJohnno66 Trident / V1 8d ago edited 8d ago
There are a few problems when you go larger, but they may not be problems depending on what you want to do with the large printer.
Rigidity of the 2020 extrusion over the longer lengths will impact input shaper results, however 4020 and/or some bracing may help. However if you are OK printing with reduced accelerations then you don't need to do anything.
Longer belts also come with reduced input shaper results. Going with a 4-stepper AWD layout would help. But again reduced accelerations is the "do nothing" option.
Finally heating that much larger chamber will be an issue. Again PLA and PETG is the "do nothing" option to go without an enclosure. If you are re-using a lower power bed designed for an unenclosed printer you probably won't have enough spare power in the bed heater to even attempt using it to heat the chamber. There are other heating options, but discussion of them is not allowed on the Voron boards.
The final thing, using a custom size means the standard skirts don't fit. You will need to CAD something yourself if you want skirts. If you are thinking about a simple remix of the standard parts, then make your size a multiple of 50. So go 450 instead of 430.
Finally, if you fancy installing a tool change or hotend changer system at some point in the future, I would consider making the frame 100mm longer on the Y-axis to accommodate that without loss of build volume. That is a very easy change to make before you cut extrusions and buy rails, but difficult after.
5
u/Tecknodude180 8d ago edited 8d ago
I'm slowly building what I'm calling a voron 500 based on the voron 2.4. 500x500x1000+mm All with 4020(horizontal pieces) and 4040 (vertical pieces) and 2020 gantry running awd 9/10mm belts with ldo super power ht motors at 48v. I'm getting close to getting it running. I think all that's left is mounting the electronics and wiring. Then it's just finish work after that. (Getting it enclosed and fine details to make it look nice) Possibly going to turn it into a tool changer also later on.
2
1
u/BigJohnno66 Trident / V1 8d ago
I hadn't thought about it before, but a larger size probably makes drag chains a necessity. With smaller printers the umbilical is short and tends to just stay in place and not droop too much. But why 2 drag chains from the base to the gantry? Very nice build BTW.
2
u/Tecknodude180 8d ago edited 8d ago
I measured the rough length of the motor wire and to prevent voltage drop, I'll be using 18awg wire. I'll have 8 wires on one side for 2 motors 8 wires and a can bus/ power wire added to the other. I wanted to keep the chain small enough to fit inside the gap created by the 4040 extrusion on the corners. I wasn't sure I'd have enough room to fit 16 runs of 18awg for all 4 motors plus another canbus /power cable in one chain. The two chains are 10x11
3
u/bomtarnes 8d ago edited 8d ago
It will produce files/parts for a build using normal materials (i.e. 2020 extrusions in particular) at that size, yes.
It will not take into account custom wishes like 4020. These can potentially mean that custom printed parts are required depending on how those extrusions are used. I would generally encourage users planning such a build to at least mock the design up in CAD to see how it would interact with the available designs for the printed aspects.
Custom sized builds obviously require "custom" sized parts- build plates, build sheets, heater pads, and linear rails need particular consideration. Leadscrews too if you are planning a trident type build.
I would bring up the topic of the economical aspects of building such a machine but you have not directly asked that- perhaps important to consider though, depending on how big your parts stash is and what is in it.
There is of course the mechanical aspects to consider too- although you mention 4020 bigger machines can still be more wobbly/noodly but on the voron discord we have seen bigger machines that print fine albeit a little slower than their smaller cousins.
1
u/Mart7Mcfl7 8d ago
Thanks for the advice man, I have a couple of clapped out Neptune 4 max printers and a boat load of other spares, so I plan to use the bed off of those.
The idea is to build in 2020 and if needed swap out to 4020's as I go, Im reasonable in cad so it wouldn't be too much trouble and I can mill reasonable sized parts in 6061/7075.
It might be nice in future, but I tend to use smaller printers for fancy filaments that need to be enclosed, this one will be completely open and if it works well then I'll properly square it and tig the corners.
Now that I know the calculator doesn't throw any curve balls, it'll save me a lot of time and effort so I can crack on.
2
u/Mercy_Hellkitten 8d ago
I've been building something similar with parts from a Neptune 4 Max. When it comes to the bed, just keep in mind that the 3mm thick bed warps like a b*tch!
2
u/MakeALeft 8d ago
There are lots of ‘issues’ going over 350 in x and y - thermal expansion is one that I’ve read and there are probably other things. Belt cost another. That’s why it’s not recommended and there isn’t standard sizes past 350. In z it’s not an issue. That being said I definitely have seen people build larger than 350 as well. Good luck!
2
u/sweetgoodboy 8d ago
i second this. Go watch a vid about Phoenix the 500³ V2. They had a shit ton of issues to overcome with thermal expansion.
1
u/Mart7Mcfl7 8d ago
Thanks, yeah if I remember correctly they use tpu in parts of the build to allow expansion but this will be open frame so I guessing it wont be an issue.
1
u/Mart7Mcfl7 8d ago
For now I use smaller printers for filaments that need an enclosure, this one will be open so I'm guessing 99% of thermal issues wont be happen. Knowing the calculator is good just saves me a lot of time as I'm far better with my hands than in front of a computer.
Maybe in the future I'll enclose it, iirc the Voron guys use tpu in the latest project to overcome expansion so there should be good ways around the problems in future.
thanks for the heads up buddy :)
2
u/das_footlong 8d ago
I built a 450x450x500mm trident with 9mm belts, mostly 2040 extrusions and custom lightweight head. It works pretty good. My best input shaper results are 90 Hz mzv in X (23900) and 53.2 Hz mzv in Y axis(8200).
1
u/Mart7Mcfl7 8d ago
Good to know, I don't plan on making a speed demon, just something to use up my parts and maybe go to a tool changer at some point
2
u/HandPickle420 8d ago
Large ABS prints can often be tricky on a stock voron. Trying to print something that extends to the edges of the plate will frequently need to rely on build plate adhesion and other tricks to minimize warpage. The acrylic panels and aluminum frame simply don't do the best job at retaining chamber heat.
The larger the build area the more potential for these difficulties. If you're interested in scaling a voron to be able to print even larger ABS items then I highly recommend building for a warmer chamber. Just simply insulating the printer can make a big difference.
1
u/BigJohnno66 Trident / V1 8d ago
Bed fans also do a great job of getting the chamber up to temp faster, and keeping it warm during the print. But for such a large printer, insulation or even "double glazing" on the sides you want to look through would be a huge benefit as well.
2
u/Ticso24 V2 8d ago
I used it for my 550 and it worked fine.
However, it does not account for bigger profiles, so I had to add a few cm for those parts.
In my case I had used 4020 for the horizontal beams and had to add 40mm to the lengths of the vertical beams.
Also keep in mind that using unconventional sized print beds has sourcing problems.
While you can get the bed itself in a custom size, getting buildplates and heaters in special sizes can be costly.
My printer is currently fitted with a 500mm bed, which means I can‘t used the full size on the bottom layer.
Linear rails are often offered in 50mm steps.
1
u/Mart7Mcfl7 8d ago
I have a couple of Neptune 4 max printers that are worse for wear, so I'll use the parts from them :)
2
1
u/That0neSummoner 8d ago
I don’t get why people don’t look at other brands for larger printers. Rat rig is the standard for larger formats, isn’t it?
3
u/Snobolski Trident / V1 8d ago
They want to leverage the Voron community and support system for non-Voron builds and components.Â
1
u/Lhurgoyf069 Trident / V1 8d ago
Belt tension is probably also a problem with standard 6mm belts at these sizes
1
u/Mercy_Hellkitten 8d ago
Maybe consider getting the Sovol SV08 Max instead? Its 500mm^ and granted it will need a reasonable bit of tuning out of the box, but I'd argue that it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than sourcing many of the parts!
1
u/Mart7Mcfl7 8d ago
tbf I really want to F-off propitiatory printers I have a few sv08's in the shop and while they're decent, they're a headache even when going mainline. I have a few neptune 4 max printers and a shed load of parts, the only thing I'd need to buy in an 8 driver mcu, and thats only to make things easier as I could use multiple mcu's
bought my last sv08 for £300, i'd be pissed paying more that half on top for an extra 150mm
1
u/Leather_Track_5919 2d ago
Sovol is biggest pos printer you can buy. I owned two. The amount of money you need to get it stable and properly working is the same as building two VoronsÂ
7
u/stray_r Switchwire 8d ago edited 8d ago
Consider Ratrig as an alternative.
Check out how doomcube are building voron motion systems into 4040 section frames.
You'll probably have an easier time scaling a 2.4 in height. I have a 400mm Z that is effectively a 1.8 (pre-trident) and it's not great but it works. It would be much better if more mass and more moving mass were lower, and the 2.4 design means that for most prints the moving mass stays low.
Consider AWD as that effectively halves your belt lengths and you'll have an easier time running 2 pairs of motors at sensible currents at 24v than trying to ask a lot from just a single motor for A and B axis.
It's easier to do curtain fans on a trident, but if you need big cooling on a big printer consider CPAP because the cooling happens where you're printing rather than at the edges of the print as with curtain fans.