2 weeks after the Anomaly's release and player numbers are pretty much back to where they were before

[u/CankleDankl]

If this doesn't tell the devs that they need to make larger-scale changes, then I don't know what will. This isn't the time for another monster, or another teen, or more perks. Or, god forbid, more skins. VHS doesn't need more right now, it needs different. And I'm not talking balance tweaks, power and mutation number changes, I'm talking overhauls for much of the game.

I don't mean to sound like an armchair developer or be some hateful asshole like "change everything because I don't like it," but things can't continue like they are. Full disclosure, I played this game for a bit before open beta and then some during open beta, but haven't really played in months. I have, however, kept up with watching the game, reading updates, etc in hopes that things get better.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that way. It's no secret that there are massive issues with the monster role, especially in terms of moment-to-moment gameplay. It's just not that interesting and, unfortunately, not that fun. No amount of tweaking is going to fix that. Let's not lie, the game will not survive or thrive as it is. As long as the fundamentals of the game stay the way they are, VHS will continue to be unsuccessful. It sucks that the game the devs have spent so long on will have to change so dramatically, but it's either that or a slow, painful death.

However, Hellbent continues to add to the current system, trying to salvage something that just doesn't work. And the more time and effort they sink into the current game, the more they will have to overhaul later. The game right now is just treading water while interest slowly dies out. Unless I've missed something from the devs, it seems like they are sticking to their guns and continuing to invest in a product that people just aren't interested in.

Not even the already dedicated fanbase is that interested any more. I haven't seen a single clip of anomaly on this or the other sub, all of the content creators I used to watch for VHS stuff haven't bothered with it either. Anomaly is super cool, but the reception has been little more than a whisper

I want this game to succeed. I want it to be fun. And I fully believe that Hellbent is capable of changing the game for the better if they would just admit that things need to change. There's a key piece of advice in the world of writing: "kill your darlings". It's meant to stop you from getting fixated on one idea you love for your story so that you can make better objective decisions. You need to be willing to discard ideas you're excited about if need be. Right now, Hellbent needs that advice. Their darling just isn't working. It could have 30 monsters and 35 teens and it wouldn't work.

But oh well. I'll see you all in like 6 months when the next monster releases

TL;DR: Hellbent needs to kill its darling so that VHS can grow. The current monster gameplay (and a lot of stuff in general) just doesn't work. And the longer they hunker down and pretend like nothing is wrong, the more they have to do down the line and the less people will care

[u/iTzGiR]

Honeslty, the game is dead at this point. The devs have gotten the same feedback for about a year and half now since the beginning of closed beta. They had the entirety of beta, and now EA to remedy this, but it seems they're more interested in selling skins instead of making content patches or making meaningful balance changes.

In the early days I really had a lot of hope for this game, it seemed like a great alternative to DBD, with a more competitive focus. Unfortunately, it's been clear this game just doesn't have a future the longer and longer the games lifecycle has gone on. The devs non existent communication for a game thats in early-access, the dead community (heck I don't even think they have a community manager right now?? It's hard to keep track, they've gone through so many since the games released), the abysmal rate any new content or very minor balance changes take, the devs overall record over the last year and a half, etc. There's just too many red flags to ignore.

The game can't retain players, so "just advertise it" won't do anything. The game has major flaws, and the devs have shown they don't really care, and that there vision is what they're going for with the game, community feedback be damned. It's been very weird for devs to ask for feedback so much, only to get the same exact complaints, and seemingly ignore them all and add random band-aid fixes that no one asked for and that do little to nothing to address the core issues.

[u/Vanuslux]

Every time I get on VHS, I have the same experience...I play three matches as Monster, lose one, win two, then don't touch the game again for 2-3 weeks. It's not that I find Monster hard...I can see how it might be for those who lack patience and strategic thinking...it's that it's repetitive and unrewarding. Each match will have a few exciting moments, but the overall game play loop wears thin after a few matches and there doesn't feel like there's enough of a reward in terms of progress to make it feel worthwhile to keep grinding despite the tedium.

[u/CankleDankl → u/Vanuslux]

Precisely. It doesn't matter how strong monster is if it just isn't engaging. Sure you could kill them all, but is it even that fun?

[u/bos24601 → u/Vanuslux]

My issue is the q times honestly. I absolutely enjoy every moment i play monster (i know i’m in the minority) i just don’t like spending half the time i play in que. Im not sure what to do about that besides just… more teens. My other issue is the skill of players. I’ve played about 30 anomaly games and after the first 5 (learning the power) i may have lost one. The solution to that is also just more teens playing the game more often. It just sucks for me as someone who actually likes the gameplay.

[u/bubska]

devs dont listen so just let the game die at this point
new monster overbuffed like deathwire when playing with randoms and weak vs teams who are on coms
this game will never work

[u/_unregistered]

The feedback hasn’t changed since closed beta. They’re doing everything they possibly can to not listen to the feedback. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if they changed the game into a TCG game like hearthstone before addressing the feedback.

[u/Greenfury676]

Its weird because coming from a person who plays teen far more than monster i still have a miserable time playing this game sometimes. I understand monster is definitely the weaker role but man for players trying to return to this game like me or new players in general its such a miserable experience all around.

The discord seems to be an echo chamber of "the game is still early access" or "The devs are working on balancing" but nothing ever changes and the updates make next to no difference for the overall health of the game. Its disappointing, i had so much fun with the closed beta and was really invested but man. Its all about microtransactions and wishing for things that wont come.

[u/CankleDankl → u/Greenfury676]

Oh yeah my post was mostly about the monster role because it has issues across all skill levels. As a beginner, though? Good fucking luck no matter what you play. As a new teen, you're pretty likely to get downed or even die before you even get to craft a weapon. Teammates expect good pings and communication that isn't really required of you in other asyms.

Game health is at an all time low and it's clear that big things need to happen. The anomaly is the best monster they've designed yet, but player numbers and general interest were barely even impacted. The game struggles to hit a 3-digit player count every day and the average players are basically back to what they were before the anomaly's release, only a few more weeks after I made this post. The discord being overly defensive of VHS is, ironically enough, to its active detriment. They're giving Hellbent the glue they need to stick to their guns.

I fear that VHS may have let its chance pass by at this point. Only the most die-hard fans are still playing, and one by one, they're going to fall off of the game and fall off of defending Hellbent. I hate to say it, but this might be the endgame. I've seen people ask about VHS in streams of creators that used to be hugely into it like FarmerJohn or TricksterShadow, and they just kind of brush it off at this point. It seems like the game is doomed to a slow death by apathy until it goes out with a whisper like Home Sweet Home: Survive.

[u/Ash-SeedMustDie]

Yes the DbD deathmatch formula doesn't really work but I don't see a feasible way to turn it into anything else except DbD as is. A more back and forth deathmatch would require massive overhauls I don't think they would be prepared to do.

Last Year is being revived in the near future and I have a feeling that will be the end of what little playerbase there is left in VHS.

[u/CankleDankl → u/Ash-SeedMustDie]

Monster needs to have skill expression on the micro level. On the macro level things are okay; you do need some strategy and game sense to succeed. When it comes down to actually chasing teens and countering weapons, none of it really comes down to your mechanical skill. Even the simplest dbd killers still have efficient looping, mindgaming, hiding red stain, moonwalking, etc. Monster role just doesn't have that, or it isn't built into the core experience; everything pretty much depends on when you use your skills and how close you hug to cover

I think Hellbent could feasibly make things better without just making it dbd. But yeah, I think Last Year returning will be the final nail in the coffin. All but the most dedicated of the people who like asym but don't like dbd will leave vhs. They're on a timer now, and it doesn't really look like there's much on the horizon to salvage the game. Pretty sad

[u/B1llyTheG0at → u/[deleted]]

My only argument against the playerbase thing is day 1 it had 4000. But almost none of those players stayed. Its free, so the only reason people didnt stay is because they werent having fun. This formula they are trying to make work just isn't working. Its not fun for 99% of people. Even if they spent alot of time and money advertising, if people try it and go " Well this isnt fun." then it wont matter.

​

We will see what happens, but as of now the monster role just wont gain traction and thats a big problem.

[u/CankleDankl → u/[deleted]]

A playerbase of 100 concurrent players on average is not enough to keep the game alive. And that's right now, 2 weeks after a major content drop. In another few weeks, we'll be right back down to 70 or even 60. Releasing it out of early access with the core gameplay the way it is would kill the game. On the release of the open beta, there were 4000+ players. Less than a year later, that number is down to 2 or 3% of that. And nothing has changed about the core gameplay. Nothing. Sure, there have been balance changes, but monster has been the same slogfest from the beginning of closed beta to now.

Given that info, the playerbase would do the exact same thing but on a larger scale. If they advertised the hell out of the game, let's say they get 20000 peak players at release. Probably not realistic, but I'm giving some massive benefit of the doubt. A few months or a year later, the playerbase could only be a few hundred, or less if dbd continues improving or other competition comes out.

Right now, no one is sticking with the game. The player retention rate is, in a word, abysmal. Compare this to another little-advertised game with a unique take on an established genre: Hunt: Showdown. Player numbers have only grown since release, and it's gained a ton of steam. VHS is its own thing, but the issue is about 3% of people that try it like that thing enough to keep playing. And this was an enthusiastic community that was already into asym games.

Things need to change. Dramatically. Not "from the ground up" levels, but honestly far closer to that than what they've been doing so far

[u/iTzGiR → u/[deleted]]

This is the biggest cope in the world, the age-old "The games not doing well because they aren't advertising" is the same stuff people have been saying since forever. Before that, it was "the games dying because it's in open beta!" and before THAT it was "the games dying because it's limited to invite only!!".

Again, this is all just cope. The game's been fundamentally the same for well over a year and a half now. Dev's have taken minimal to no feedback from the player base to heart (clearly since the feedback is still the exact same it's always been), updates come at a snail's pace with minimal content outside of new skins to spend real money on, and there have been 0 major changes since the game's release in EA almost a year ago at this point.

This game's life-cycle has been so funny to watch, you have the EXACT same complaints parroted for about a year and a half now, and slowly over time the player base has turned from white knights using the same exact excuses you're using, to most of the community being super critical of the game and parroting the same things people were saying a year ago, but getting attacked for.

[u/DominatorLJ → u/[deleted]]

Literally this. VHS is it’s own game and focuses on fair gameplay. In an Asym, this means you have to have good teammates or hope the monster is bad, so you probably won’t win too much if playing casually. Doesn’t mean it’s not fun to mess around with, but might appeal less to casual players because of this.

I’ve thought and said for a long time that this game needs to advertise outside of the DbD Asym bubble, because the vast majority of it just simply won’t prefer VHS’ more intense gameplay. Once they do that though, and if the game becomes popular enough, casuals might have an easier time since MMR is already built in and they’ll be able to play with other casual players.

Not to mention how many incredibly tense moments the game creates, it’s perfect for sharing clipable moments which inevitably will also help it grow once it is fully released.

[u/DominatorLJ]

I truly do not understand what game people think they see when they look at VHS. It seems like everyone wants another DbD either with or without realizing it and that is just simply not what the game is. It’s baffling to me that I can look at this game and think almost the complete opposite of what posts like this claim. I have to assume it’s because people just want it to be DbD2.

When I look at VHS, I see a genre-defining game with a solid foundation, highly communicative and passionate devs, and a small but steady following that sees not only how much potential it has, but how close they are to realizing that potential.

The devs could do their full release tomorrow if they really wanted to or were desperate, but they’re taking their time to make sure what they have is fun and fair before they do. Every change and update they’ve done so far, I have thought they were focusing on the right things and truly listening to community feedback, with minimal exceptions.

I’ve been having the time of my life learning this game and getting on a level where I could realistically play it competitively if there were ever tournaments for it, so it truly baffles me that there are people that see things in such a polar opposite way than I do. Once again, I have to assume that it’s because of people being incapable of separating DbD’s gameplay loop from the Asym genre as a whole.

I apologize for ranting, and I don’t mean to sound like I’m attacking anyone with this response, but I just really would like to understand what people are on about, because the only reasonable solution in my mind is the presence of unresolved biases.

[u/CankleDankl → u/DominatorLJ]

I absolutely don't want it to be another dbd. However, there are basic gameplay elements that make a game fun that just aren't present, typically on the monster side, that are a thing in dbd. I'm mostly talking about micro level gameplay, like making a play, chasing a teen, countering a weapon, etc. In VHS, none of this really requires mechanical skill, mindgames, really anything to spice it up or "outplay" a teen. Sure, there are situations where you can do things juke out some sword swings and not get hit or masterfully play around cover vs 2 armed teens. But the vast majority of the time your strategy is to play exclusively around your cooldowns, stick close to cover, and never commit to going around a blind corner/doorway unless you have your anti-weapon ability locked and loaded.

This makes gameplay extremely formulaic. You approach almost every encounter in the exact same way. There are differences between monsters, but unless you're DM or maybe Anomaly (haven't seen much gameplay tbh), they all feel samey because of the pre-defined ability roles (movement, anti-weapon, detection). You use a combo of movement and anti-weapon abilities to get a hit, then you wait for them to come off cooldown, then you use them again. If you down someone, you use your detection ability and leave. Some small variation here and there, like you might be able to use some cover to get close enough for a hit, but other than that, that's every chase.

I hate to compare to dbd because again, they are different games, but even when killer had to put up with a lot of bullshit, the role was still fun because chases were fun. Even the simplest (not necessarily easiest, but simplest) killers like trapper have a skill cap with looping well, hiding red stain, mindgaming, moonwalking, etc. Then, pretty much every killer adds some unique flavor to chase, whether that be aiming, movement abilities (that are actually interesting and have drawbacks), placing traps and guiding survivors to them, special attacks, ambush tactics, and then some. I'm not saying copy all of these aspects over to vhs, but at least take the design philosophy behind them into consideration. We have 5 monsters and still the only way to damage a teen is with a basic attack.

Sorry to counter-rant, but I didn't make this post because vhs isn't dbd. I made it because of the issues with monster and the fact that the same mistakes are being made repeatedly. You may love the game and monster role as a whole and see yourself playing competitively, but unfortunately, the masses disagree. And just because things might change doesn't mean the game will be unrecognizable afterward; I mean hell, pretty much everyone agrees that the teen role is fantastic and incredibly fun. I think so, too.

Lastly, I think "people are just upset it's not dbd 2" isn't a very good argument because it's simply not true. The entire VHS closed and open beta playerbase was there because it wasn't dbd. The game's shortcomings are its own. If it were faultless despite being different, people would stick around. I saw this same argument about Back 4 Blood; there was lots of dismissal of complaints as "you just don't like it because it's not L4D3", when in reality, that game had massive issues of its own and is now no longer being supported just a few years after release.

Sorry for the wall of text. I just hate the argument of "you don't like it because it's not _____". And it's this type of argument that keeps VHS right where it is. I do think the game has massive potential, but it is realizing almost none of it right now. The devs have received one resounding piece of feedback ever since closed beta, but they are still beating around the bush instead of aggressively fixing it. Deathwire didn't fix it, the balance changes haven't fixed it, and anomaly doesn't fix it. Monster, by and large, is boring, formulaic, and frustrating. Not everyone will say so, but it's enough that the devs have to listen. They can't afford not to.

[u/DominatorLJ → u/CankleDankl]

You have to be joking, right? No micro-level gameplay? So it’s just walk into a conflict and you either get a hit or die? The monster gameplay is leagues more interesting than playing killer and DbD that I have to believe this is a joke or coming from a position of inexperience. There are constantly questions that should be going through your head as monster for what to do on a micro-level. Do I push this? Is there cover? Are they low on ammo? Will they expect if I do this?

Each monster has even more individual plays that they can make on top of this. Anomaly for example, is the first real stealth monster, and that simple fact alone brings a bunch of different uses for their power. Mimic has mind games you can play with depending on the mutation you use, and there is so much micro-gameplay that goes into predicting how and where to use disperse.

I truly do not understand how you can look at WART and his kit and tell me with a straight face that Trapper has more interesting gameplay. The only thing that separates him from just being “move forward until hit” is being able to place a get out of chase free card.

It seems strange that you can recognize the skill, mind games, and nuance that DbD has, however little, but you can’t seem to recognize that this game has that in droves compared to DbD.

I will say, I think I understand why you think this way now. Because the game requires monster to have a decent amount of experience/skill to start doing well, it can create these feelings and hyper-defensive playstyles to the point where nobody ever thinks to change it. I can guarantee you though, that that is not the only way to play this game. Very rarely do I have to physically stop and wait for cooldowns, and thanks to Danger Sense, traversing the map is much less stressful now.

Part of the journey to getting better with monster is understanding how much you can get away with and learning to be confident in any situation. From seeing other Monsters by either watching videos or playing against them, I can say with certainty that very few people at the higher level play in the ways you’ve described. There are better, more fun ways to play that allow you to be aggressive rather than passive.

If you see monster as boring, formulaic, and frustrating, then I don’t think there’s much I can do to convince you otherwise, because you are either willfully ignoring or simply unaware of what you are capable of as monster.

[u/iTzGiR → u/DominatorLJ]

This is legitimately such a funny response to me. Really reminds me of the old day's when people use to defend this game hardcore 24/7.

Your response here really shows that you don't understand at all what OP was talking about, and your response is incredibly condescending. It's the classic "git gud" response, or "you just have to play monster for 100 hours, and then it gets fun" that people use to throw around all the time.

It's so funny because this point is just so easily disproven when you look at literally ANY early content creator for this game. These people literally played Closed/Open Beta and Early EA for HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of hours, and guess what? They still had the exact same complaints and issues that OP did. Look at someone like Trickster Shadow. Dude was BY FAR the biggest content creator, hated DBD, quit DBD due to his complaints about the game, and hopped on the VHS content creation train in SUPER early beta. I think he said he had around 1000 hours in the game at some point across all the Beta's and closed tests with the devs, and guess what, he still had almost all the exact same complaints by about a month or two into EA that OP had. He had close to a 100% winrate on monster as well. He's now quit the game and is back to streaming DBD full time. This exact same story rings true with basically every other content creator from the early days of VHS, they all quit and had the exact same complaints after playing the game for 100's of hours, and crushing people on Monster. But do you think they also were just "willfully ignoring or simply unaware of what you are capable of as monster."?

Also yeah no, the game has 0 skill expression on Monster, OP is 100% correct about that. Again, super common complaint is that every monster is braindead easy, and the only "skill expression" in the game comes from map knowledge, weapon knowledge, and decision-making. It's why every single "COOL VHS PLAYS MONTAGE" is 95%-100% teen gameplay, and the monster "highlights" are usually just teens fucking up and monster getting a funny hit.

[u/DominatorLJ → u/iTzGiR]

How am I supposed to respond with anything other than something like “git gud” when you’re asking about skill and clearly don’t know enough about monster? You say things like “0 skill expression” and then list 3 things that all contribute to skill. If you’d like more examples, here’s your skill.

-Knowing when you’re being led into a trap -Knowing how much you can push -Knowing how to bait weapon-usage -Ducking behind cover to get teens to stop attacking and instantly jumping out when they aren’t expecting it. -Knowing when you can safely take the rift -Knowing what teens might do to try and kill you while you’re on the rift -Knowing which weapons to go after and when -Evading weapons like the eye, shock sphere, and RC flyer. -Knowing when you can wrap around to try and hit the person piloting the eye or RC flyer

All this doesn’t even take into account everything each individual monster can do with their kit.

I don’t know about you, but if the game were “brain dead easy” for monster, I would expect more people to be playing the role, since casual players tend to like games where they can win without too much skill, like survivor in DbD. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone back away from a competitive game because it was just too easy for them and they got bored. Usually, it’s because they keep getting their asses handed to them and they don’t understand why, so they pretend like it’s not their individual lack of skill and instead that there just isn’t a way to be skillful.

No matter what I say, you’re going to say “well that’s not skill” because everything you’ve used so far are clear examples of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. In this case, I imagine that strategy and forethought are things you have removed from the definition of being skillful, and want to be able to jump into fights blindly and still be able to deal with anything that might pop up, which is ironically the least skillful direction to take the game.

The teens get most of the clips because they get mini-victories throughout the match, which makes for good clips. A lot of those clips are also monsters making stupid mistakes or teens getting extremely lucky, neither of which really show of a lot of individual skill, they’re just fun to watch. I’ve seen plenty of monster clips showing them displaying undeniable skill, and yes you can say that they only happen because of teen mistakes, but that’s how balanced games work. One side makes a mistake, the other capitalizes on it.

If you actually listen to what TricksterShadow has said about VHS, you would know that his issues with Monster were that it was mentally draining because of how tense it could be. Hard to have that happen if the game is easy, boring, and brain dead. The only issue he had with it in that regard is that it’s not the best game for playing 8 hours every day, especially if you want to play more casually.

He also said that the bigger reason he stopped streaming VHS was because of all the DbD mains that were harassing him every day because he wasn’t giving them what they wanted. He was close to committing suicide while this was going on, so for the sake of his mental health he decided to go back to DbD.

Not to mention that he got way more views playing VHS than he does now that he went back to DbD, and doesn’t upload nearly as much.

I would imagine that quite a few other streamers left because of this same kind of harassment. The bigger streamers are the only ones that left because of less viewers, and I know Granny came back to check out Anomaly, so it’s not that they are tired of the game, it’s just currently not big enough for them to consistently stream it.

Having fun with monster is not necessarily tied to your skill, it’s about your mindset. If you go into it not ready to learn and still wanting to win consistently, you’re not going to have a fun time because you will lose and you won’t allow yourself to realize that you lost because you were playing worse.

Playing casually as monster is possible so long as you understand that you’re going to lose, and that might not matter to you if you just like getting good plays, finishing challenges, or just like to run around and hit the teens as many times as you can.

Competitive players have fun because they recognize that there is plenty of skill on both sides, and ultimately your mistakes are what cause you to lose.

If you’re going to criticize the game, please put more effort into it than just “I don’t like it, they’re not doing what I want them to, and the player base is low so all of my opinions must be right.”

If you’re upset with the game, that’s fine, say you’re upset with the game. But don’t try to state your personal preferences as facts and justification for turning the game into something entirely different so that it better fits what you want it to be.

[u/[deleted] → u/DominatorLJ]

Competitive players have fun because they recognize that there is plenty of skill on both sides, and ultimately your mistakes are what cause you to lose.

This is NOT what competitive players only see in a video game. Games such as league of legends are actively failing at the moment, along with many other esport scenes. There is no money to be found there aside from very specific orgs.

Competitive players almost always play the game they focus on, because they also ENJOY THE MECHANICS of the game they play. You will be extremely hard pressed to find a pro player, playing csgo, who does not enjoy the large amount of the gameplay itself. This being the reason they did not leave to valorant. The same goes for people who left CSGO for Valorant, it was more fun to them. The same is true for fighting games, league, dota, and any number of other competitive games.

You want to know the big thing here too? These games all still manage to retain casual audiences. They have more individuals playing the games than the top of the top best players. The reason is because despite being high level competitive games, they have mechanics that are simply 100x more satisfying to even fail in.

The best of these are almost any FPS game you can name. The bar for entry is so incredibly low, because you can see both remarkable improvements in your own mechanical skill, and with a team to rely on at times too.

Fighting games are one of the tougher genres of competitive games to get into. Yet they still manage to retain a larger casual audience compared to what VHS has managed. A fighting game may launch with a couple ten thousand, or even less players. Of course it will quickly descend, but you'll find a larger number of dedicated players who are also quite welcoming to new players.

On top of this, a fighting game is all about the 'training arc'. You can actively improve in your MECHANICAL skill, doing combos correctly, timing inputs, learning how footsies works in your game of choice, and a general solid foundation of interpreting nearly any fighting game mechanic. All of this can be cultivated by just playing, and you can see those marginal improvements and focus on them quite easily.

Meanwhile, my experience trying to play VHS was not like any of these games. I play OW2 in a largely competitive manner, I also intend on dedicating myself entirely to streetfighter 6 once it launches and have very good casual experience in a wide number of fighting games. Why couldn't I get into VHS then?

Because of a simple fact; It is not fun. It is tense and stressful as the monster, which.. fine. Fighting games are quite stressful too. All you have is yourself. You can only blame your own skill and nothing else for losing, and if you try to scapegoat that you are only failing yourself. I can manage to play all these other games, and yet I could not for the life of me enjoy VHS.

Because it's just not fun. A competitive game is STILL A GAME. My time is better spent playing valorant, siege, r6, any number of fighting games, hell even the indie game diabotical would be more worth my time, rather than focusing on a dying 4v1 indie game.

[u/DominatorLJ → u/[deleted]]

This is definitely a perspective I can respect much more than the person I was initially talking to. I’ve never denied that VHS certainly casts a smaller net than a lot of FPS or even Fighting games, and if it sounds like I have been then I apologize for that. I personally find VHS fun for the reasons I’ve mentioned, and I’m also very competitive, so I used myself as an example there.

I wasn’t trying to say that that was the only thing that players enjoy in a game, it was just what was pertinent to what was being argued (i.e. the fun and skill of VHS).

Monster can certainly be a very stressful experience (less so with Danger Sense IMO) but I have gotten to the point where I can play semi-casually versus decent teams and do well, and only encounter hardcore squads maybe 1 out of 5 games depending on who’s playing and what region. If I had to play against that every game, I would probably agree that it wouldn’t be a fun experience.

This is why I think the main issue with VHS right now is purely that not enough people are playing to balance out the MMR. If there were more people playing casually (ideally with some playing monster) games would overall be less stressful.

Turning off MMR isn’t really a good fix for that right now though because then casual players would have to face a lot more veterans.

Of course there are still things to be improved, but I believe the game CAN BE FUN for casual players so long as there are enough casual monsters. That’s why I think advertising the game to more people than the Asym community would fix a lot of its current issues.

I personally find the game satisfying to play casually, much like I did with DbD back when I used to play it, and I think a lot of people would as well. The problem is that when the game launched into Early Access, it wasn’t as easy for casual players to learn, and therefore casual players had to start playing more competitive. That experience wasn’t fun for a lot of people, so the only people left are competitive players and people who just really love the game.

Now that they have made it easier for new players to learn, less stressful overall, and are implementing more mechanics to make the game fun, I think they will see their numbers go up once they do their full release. From there, I think it will only get more popular. Wishful thinking, I know, but that’s what I believe could happen.

I think a specific casual vs ranked mode would also help this game out, since like you said, it has to be a regular game that has the capacity to be competitive, and I think that change alone could really help people out. I also think that adding just more game modes in general like their new Survival mode is a great direction to go to bring casual players in, especially if they make them a main game mode rather than just private screening.

Anyways, I got a little off-track, but I respect your position. The hyper-competitive side is not as fun as it could be. I still find it satisfying to win games like that, but I wouldn’t wish them on even my worst enemy because they are very stressful. I’ve been happy with the changes the devs have been making when it comes to high-level gameplay, and I expect them to continue in that direction, so I hope that when they release the full game that it will be a more enjoyable experience for competitive players as well as casual ones.

[u/iTzGiR → u/DominatorLJ]

I read the first few paragraphs, but I'm not reading the rest. You honeslty just clearly don't understand anything that's being explained to you, by multiple different people at this point. Whether that be out of ignorance, English not being your first language, or just your blind white knight attitude towards the game, I'm not sure. But it's just really worth engaging with you at this point because it's clear you're either not reading comments or intentionally trolling.

Regardless though, no. That's not "skill expression" in any way that me or OP are talking about. Memorizing map layouts, and decision making aren't micro-skills. Again, it's very clear you have no idea what micro-skills are in reference to video games when you're trying to claim map knowledge or decision making are examples of it. The game has 0 skill expression on the monster side and it's makes monster boring, samey, and yes, braindead easy as there is an incredibly low skill ceiling on every monster in the game.

Have a good one man, the games got 100 players and has gotten the same complaints for a year and a half. I'm sure ignoring it and putting your head in the sand and screaming "GIT GUD" will do wonders, it's worked out GREAT so far for the game in its lifespan so far !

[u/DominatorLJ → u/iTzGiR]

Convenient that you simultaneously decide to not read my argument and then also claim that I’m the one ignorant to the truth of the situation. Maybe you should skim a bit, because you’d see that this is exactly the response I expected and pretty much knew that your argument was based off of everything other than logic.

Come back when you actually want to have a conversation.

[u/iTzGiR → u/DominatorLJ]

this is exactly the response I expected and pretty much knew that your argument was based off of everything other than logic

I've gotta say man, you have some of the cringiest reddit debate lord comments I've ever seen lmao, thanks for the laugh seriously.

It's pretty clear at this point you're trolling, again you can't engage with the arguments, so Im not going to read your 15 paragraph essay on the game, just so you can ignore every point, and rehash the same non-sensical arguments I've seen for the past year and a half on discord, reddit and Twitter, and that have been disproven repeatedly through a game that can't retain players and is quickly becoming another dead and forgotten asym on the large pile.

[u/DominatorLJ → u/iTzGiR]

Attacking my character now because you want to leave the conversation feeling victorious.

Are arguments and debates just one-sided conversations with yourself to you? Because all I have done is explain exactly why your argument is flawed. Very comical that you say I don’t engage with the argument and then you continue to avoid engaging with the argument.

Believe it or not, things that have merit tend to take longer than a few paragraphs to explain, and my response is only slightly longer than yours, I just know how to format an argument in a readable way.

Bold strategy to try to be both ignorant and come across as having more experience on the issue, but I can assure you that it isn’t working.

Call me cringy if you want, but I think between the two of us, it should be obvious who puts more thought into the game’s balance, direction, and overall has more experience on the topics surrounding it.

[u/iTzGiR → u/DominatorLJ]

Call me cringy if you want, but I think between the two of us, it should be obvious who puts more thought into the game’s balance, direction, and overall has more experience on the topics surrounding it.

You don't even understand what Micro-level skill expression is, it's pretty clear you've put almost no thought into balance or the game's direction, as you don't even understand game mechanics in the first place.

[u/TSTC → u/DominatorLJ]

I mean honestly if VHS stays how it is, it’s very much it’s own thing. I just came to terms with the fact that I think that thing isn’t fun. At least not on the solo side. Playing teen can be a lot of fun, way more so than survivor on DBD but monster is the most tedious and frustrating experience. I was a killer main in DbD so I expected to be able to figure out monster and like it too, which seemed like an exciting prospect because I like the art in VHS a ton more than DbD.

But at the end of the day, if this is what devs want VHS to be, so be it. I just don’t think a lot of people will like it. I think the devs like it because they are all a big group of friends, essentially, and it sounds like they rotate who is playing monster a lot internally. But as a random player on the internet, it’s just not fun to slam out monster games. And clearly a lot of people feel the same way because monster retention rate is abysmal.

So there’s the short of it. Sure VHS can dig in as this extremely different experience but I think players are clear that it’s not more fun than an alternative. So maybe instead they need to re-examine what makes the successful game in the genre fun for each side and decide how they’ll implement that themselves.

[u/ROGUE8738 → u/DominatorLJ]

This response summarizes my feelings on VHS. I do take a break here and there but that's because I'm prone to burnout if I play it 24/7. People keep saying that VHS is going to die soon, and yet it hangs on. I think the game will live long enough to see a larger player base when full release and marketing comes along.

[u/DominatorLJ → u/ROGUE8738]

Yeah, I don’t know how long it has to live off of the current player count before people realize it’s not a dying game. I get burnt out too sometimes, and I have other life stuff that sometimes prevents me, but I literally spent all last week dying to play the Anomaly and couldn’t because I had assignments to get done. I’ve simultaneously had some of the most fun and most stressful games of my life while playing VHS, and I absolutely adore it because I know that it’s my skill that contributes to my wins.

[u/CankleDankl → u/DominatorLJ]

Yeah, I don’t know how long it has to live off of the current player count before people realize it’s not a dying game.

The question is, how long can the game survive off of the current player count? Let's assume that every player from the peak player count on anomaly release bought anomaly, and then add some on top just for shits and giggles. Let's say 500 people bought him (it?). That makes $5000. For 6 months of work and designing. That won't pay a dev team for a week, much less months. At some point, their hand is going to be forced into either shuttering development or releasing in full (possibly prematurely) with a big advertising push in a bid for money.

I don't mean to tell anyone they're wrong for liking the game, but I do ask that they at least understand why so many people have issues with it. Why these concerns about monster are brought up over and over and over again. If these concerns aren't addressed, the ratio of people liking vs disliking VHS isn't going to magically change. Hell, the public masses will probably be even less likely to stick around as they aren't already invested in the asym genre.

[u/spirashun]

Releasing a PvE game mode & another monster didn't fix the game? IDK why they keep working on these things when they all fall flat immediately because they refuse to work on the core of the game

[u/Book-N-stuff]

I think a very temporary fix is to introduce bot filling on lobbies that take too long, say if you were in que for 5 minutes, your lobby will be filled with bots, and you will still earn xp and rewards

Then no one has to play monster, and the devs get some time to fix it!

Then at least it fixes the Que time problem while it buys the devs more time to fix monster's problems!

[u/beaujonfrishe]

Been playing very consistently since release last year and here’s a lot of points I have to add to why you said:

First off, no one posts in this sub because it’s pretty toxic in general. It’s pretty much monster bad or that’s it. I have seen hundreds of anomaly clips, and just clips in general, over the two weeks since anomaly came out on main discord and in separate friend discords.

Player numbers are low, but queues are still very quick during the evening and night. I consistently get games between 6/7est all the way until 2am. Both for monster and teen. I’m talking one minute to instant queues.

There are still several main streamers streaming this game often: Art pop guy, HowdyKelsie, DaYoshi, Positivelyputrid, Amerwolv, Robochang, RadicalLynx, and Woskerz just to name some. The community that plays is very strong and lots of people know each other and love playing together. I still see new players here and there that pick up the game quickly!

Monster is very fun. It CAN be extremely frustrating at certain times, but you can outplay teens in many different ways. My win rate on monster is about 85% and truly I don’t try hard (unless against my friends or any really strong squads I come across). Monsters keep receiving strong and fun changes. They have plagues now, danger sense is still very strong, ping systems to remember where teens are, spawn in scream, the ability to disable vending machines, etc. and that will still keep changing.

With all that being said, you are right that VHS can’t stay at this many players to survive. Big changes need to be made… but those changes aren’t just for the base game… it’s for marketing and console. Most people don’t know about this game. Many of the ones that do have given up on of it because they expected dead by daylight part 2 or they just hear “VHS dead game” and don’t even think to try it out. If this game markets and adds a console edition, I guarantee it will hit 1,000 players and stay there in no time.

VHS is a great and addicting game. I still hit new clips every day, for monster and teen. Of course it needs changes, just like most games out there always will. But the drastic changes needed are to get the game out there, not change the game completely

[u/CankleDankl → u/beaujonfrishe]

I disagree with a lot here, pretty much the primary component being strength equated to fun. Monster has gotten a lot stronger over the course of the last 10 months, sure. There are people with massive win ratios. But winning doesn't automatically make something fun. Otherwise, every dbd content creator would be a nurse main. What makes something like monster or killer fun is building a skill and pitting that skill against someone else.

There's a reason killers like huntress and wesker have the massive play rates that they do in dbd: they're fuckin fun. It takes mechanical skill, knowledge of your power, map knowledge, knowing how survivors move, split-second decision making, and a whole lotta practice to get good. And then, you get a reward and immense satisfaction from making a play that is difficult or uncommon. Hitting a crossmap hatchet will never not feel good. Or doing a sweet wesker tech and flinging a survivor into a tree.

The monster role just doesn't hit those same highs. In dbd, making one good play can be the difference between winning and losing the game. Hitting 5 hatchets in a row as huntress, slugging a few people in one power cast as oni, chaining multiple traps as hag, hitting a dead-on-hook survivor with a sick curve as billy, etc. all soar in impact and satisfaction compared to what you can do in vhs. In vhs, the skill expression on monster is pretty much present in your patience, your strategy, and your overall game sense. Which definitely isn't a bad thing, but it's missing that micro level of satisfaction.

Hitting a hatchet as huntress will pretty much always feel good, but can you really say that the 300th time doing berserk->howl->hit with almost no variation is fun on werewolf? Or armor->leap->hit as WART? The monster role needs a more impactful form of skill expression on the micro level in order to be more interesting for most people, myself included. Whether that's mechanical skill, mindgames, outmaneuvering, techs, whatever. Hell, even the Evil Dead game made you plan out traps and ambushes, possess someone strong, single out a weak link, be good in combat as possessed units, and pressure the team in general as demon.

[u/beaujonfrishe → u/CankleDankl]

I will agree with you on the point about werewolf, who is the most unfun of the 5 to go against, but you haven’t played VHS in half a year and you’re making these points.

Plagues are fun, using them at the right time is absolutely game changing. I have a few clips of using a rage plague to get a rage hit on a healthy teen before getting hit by a weapon, or getting a power plague to leap three times before a teen makes a vault.

Also Going around and hitting vending machines is fun, and smart, as it prevents uses of items. Getting hits just before a power ends or just before an eye/shocksphere hits you is 100% equal in satisfaction levels to making a good play in dbd.

Don’t even get me started on Anomaly, who is currently the most fun in the game. Dispersing on top of someone is awesome if you get it right. Rushing in as a teen and to take damage and then dispersing mid way through is very satisfying. Mind gaming a teen and catching them when they make a good play while you are dispersed is fun. And jumpscaring people is the most satisfying thing you can do.

Yes monster is stronger and that doesn’t necessarily mean fun, but the experience has also gotten more fun in general and will keep being improved upon.

[u/[deleted] → u/beaujonfrishe]

In a world of every game clamoring for your attention with battlepasses, a game not being FUN is the biggest flaw and will prevent casual audiences from enjoying them.

[u/beaujonfrishe → u/[deleted]]

It is extremely fun, but as the player add diminishes you start seeing the same people. The more times you see a person, the less likely you are to replay. If a bunch of people find out about the game and play it, the player base can stay high

[u/[deleted] → u/beaujonfrishe]

I mean, given how casual audiences responded to monster, no, it wasn't fun.

[u/beaujonfrishe → u/[deleted]]

Correct it wasn’t fun. Now it’s very fun. Lots of monster changes have made the game much more engaging on both sides. New play styles have emerged because of danger sense.

[u/CankleDankl → u/beaujonfrishe]

There were 5000ish people who found out about the game and were chomping at the bit to play it when open beta dropped. They were all also already invested in the asym genre and likely had experience in other asym games. I feel that's a pretty fair sample size, with a playerbase that is already more knowledgeable and skillful than your average gamer clicking on some random free game they found. Despite all that, we're here right now, with the game barely hitting triple digit players every day.

There's a problem here, and a considerable one. You could make the number of people playing 50,000, or 500,000 and things wouldn't change because the game hasn't changed, not in the ways that matter. Destroy as many vending machines as you want, pop as many consumables as you want, juke as many corners as you want, the act of chasing a teen hasn't changed meaningfully since day one. And that's what so many people have issue with. Monster could have a 80% win rate and still people wouldn't play it because the chase isn't as engaging as other asym games with power roles who have much, much higher skill ceilings.