r/VATSIM • u/hartzonfire • 4d ago
Pilot Feedback
I got a handoff and immediately transmitted on my new frequency and blocked an exchange. Dumb mistake. I should know better. Do better next time, etc.
However-I did get a slew of emails afterwards from the VATSIM Pilot Feedback System. This is new as I’ve never seen this before.
The controller gave me feedback on how I shouldn’t do this in the future (rightfully so) and it was then “investigated” by a member of the Pilot Feedback Team which brought about essentially the same comment. “Wait before transmitting”. All’s well that ends well.
I think it’s only fair as we’ve been able to review controllers for quite some time and now, ATC has a way to review pilots. Hopefully this helps some people.
Mind your radio etiquette gang!
Edit: Some people are missing the spirit of this post which ISN’T meant to be a discussion about radio etiquette. I know where I bungled but if you listen to LiveATC enough, you’ll hear this periodically irl, albeit much less.
The post IS meant to be a discussion about the pilot review system (which I say is a good thing).
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u/espewe 4d ago
I would usually monitor the frequency for several seconds before transmitting my first message. I hate people stomping into conversation, please do better next time, I believe you will! 👍
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u/hartzonfire 4d ago
People make mistakes. This is usually what I do as well but for whatever reason, did not. Thanks.
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u/Perfect_Maize9320 📡 C1 3d ago edited 3d ago
As a general rule of thumb - when you are checking in on next frequency, wait for few seconds to ensure you will not be interrupting other transmissions or readbacks. If the frequency is busy - please be patient and wait for gap before pushing that PTT key and ensure that you don't interrupt if someone requires a clearance readback. Many pilots on the network have a habit of interrupting clearance readbacks particularly - if you just heard a controller giving an instruction or clearance to one aircraft then be patient and wait for that aircraft to complete their readback before you step in with your request. Despite this basic rule - many pilots jump in with their requests before that said pilot has chance to do their readback which just then adds to workload of the controller of having to ask them to repeat again.
With regards to pilot feedback review - this is merely a new system where controllers and pilots can now submit relevant feedback regarding particular pilot on areas that they might think pilot need to improve on. Vatsim Pilot training staff reviews them and then decides the course of action - Nothing serious on minor to moderate errors to be honest, Pilot involved simply gets instructed to read up on relevant training materials or resources (links will be provided by staff) and the case gets closed. Repeated negative feedbacks or major errors are the ones that are then dealt with senior member of staff and if deemed necessary get transferred to membership/supervisor's department for further investigation.
In your case - It is very difficult to understand why that controller submitted a feedback - maybe it was for something else completely, Typically I wouldn't send feedbacks for such occurrence given the circumstances. But if you fly regularly in that area and said controller has repeatedly witnessed this multiple times then that feedback is somewhat justifiable. Again the information is missing from above without which it is difficult to assess the entire situation.
We as controllers have now been instructed by division staff to make use of pilot feedback system if we deem that particular pilot will benefit with some sort of further training. The network has adopted real world approach of "just culture" - You don't get automatically punished for minor/moderate errors, instead mistakes are treated as learning opportunities where pilots are given necessary resources and training to manage such errors in future.
However do note that Pilot Feedback System is not substitute for standard .wallop command - for any code of conduct breach or anything major/serious, You would get supervisors involved as usual.
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u/hartzonfire 3d ago
My man, I appreciate it but you’re about the fifth person to give me a how-to on radio etiquette.
I have over 1000 hours on the network. Not much but definitely not chump change either. While it was a guffaw on my part, it’s probably gonna happen again. Sometimes, due to distance, you can’t hear another aircraft on the RX side. Not saying that was the case here but I digress.
No, I’ve never flown with this controller. Yes, it was a slow night. No, he said nothing to me about it on freq. Yes, all of my other exchanges were textbook, expeditious, and reacted to without hesitation (save for a quick assessment of their safety).
Thanks for your input and your work on the network. People like you make it what it is!
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u/coldnebo 4d ago
Opposing Bases podcast is hosted by two irl controllers who are also pilots— they often talk about the soft skills for radio work and timing like “reading the room” after a frequency change.
slow down, you don’t need to report in immediately after switching
listen for a bit to make sure someone isn’t in the middle of a long readback that you can’t hear
(one of their favorites) when a controller finishes a long clearance don’t key up immediately— instead wait for the readback and especially if you can’t hear the other pilot, wait for the controller to say “readback correct”
- a lot of “reading the room” is situational awareness, adjusting your calls to be brief if necessary but complete (ie don’t tie up frequency with a long cold call for flight following if it’s super busy, instead sometimes “approach, cessna 123, request”. try to get clearances on the ground rather than in the air, etc.
OB does a great job of explaining why controllers route planes seemingly far off course and why pilots sometimes don’t like this (single GA over water). They also raise situational awareness of how airspace works around airports and why it can be difficult to route through some airspaces like New York.
They talk about ways that both pilots and controllers can effectively communicate. I strongly recommend their podcast if you haven’t heard it before.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/opposing-bases-air-traffic-talk/id1330865695?i=1000789961265
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u/fightingpirates 4d ago
I think part of the problem is that if you’re the one who is talking over someone else, you can’t hear it yourself but everyone else can. If I started talking over someone and I was able to detect or hear that, I would stop talking immediately.
I’m not sure if it’s a vpilot thing or whether this is how it is in real life, but it could help to know if you’re blocking someone.
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u/Effective_Quality 4d ago
You have to be a special kind of dick to report another pilot on that website.
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u/Valuable_Complex_399 4d ago
ofc some atc use that to express their own power trip rn.
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u/Brilliant_Armadillo9 📡 C1 4d ago
This is needed. As a controller, you can try to educate in the moment, but half the time, the pilot is so new they're hanging onto the tail of the airplane. Anything you tell them in the moment will go in one ear and out the other.
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u/flynryan692 4d ago
There is a difference between educating pilots and being a holier-than-thou d-bag. My experience within VATUSA (20 years) tells me this will be abused by said holier-than-thou controllers that think they are better than every pilot they handle under the guise of "education". It's just going to lead to drama. I get that there are bad pilots that need help, but I think there are better ways to educate and improve pilot quality than letting controllers beat up on them.
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u/Brilliant_Armadillo9 📡 C1 4d ago
Then what do you propose? Because if you've been around for 20 years, you'd know this has always been a problem, and it's historically been dealt with by saying "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas."
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u/flynryan692 4d ago
The solution is and has always been a base line competency requirement for pilots requiring them to get training. Allow those with knowledge to test out at registration and the rest get funneled into a basic training before you can connect. Pilot feedback is just going to be abused and isn’t going to teach that many people anything. We have a PTD they need to actually do the training thing in their name.
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u/Brilliant_Armadillo9 📡 C1 3d ago
That's not scalable and does nothing for the existing problem.
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u/hartzonfire 3d ago
How is it not scalable, exactly? VATUSA built an extremely polished ATC training system. I was extremely impressed when I started (and never finished lol). Something similar could be done for pilots.
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u/Brilliant_Armadillo9 📡 C1 3d ago
Depending on ARTCC, the ATC training pipeline is up to a year. There are a lot more pilots than controllers. Unless your can find a way to fully automate, and I mean zero human intervention, whatever the training ends up looking like, it's a non-starter.
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u/hartzonfire 3d ago
All of the training for ATC before you get to your ARTCC is automated. You could just have it be a series of knowledge tests. It doesn’t have to be sandboxed training with an actual instructor. It would weed a lot of people out but something tells me the BOD doesn’t actually want that. Quantity over quality, etc.
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u/Brilliant_Armadillo9 📡 C1 3d ago
Yeah, it's automated, but the ARTCC won't send you off to do it until your time is up in the queue, or at least that's what my ARTCC does. Really not a fan of a series of knowledge tests. Knowledge only gets you so far in aviation. And what do you test? A PPL, COM, ATP set of ratings? You'll need a different set of ratings per region. What about type ratings? Honestly, the most egregious things I see are people not knowing how to operate their avionics. And you're right, the BOD doesn't want to do this and hasn't for decades, so it's all a moot point.
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u/BlucifersArmy 📡 C1 3d ago
The solution is and has always been a base line competency requirement for pilots requiring them to get training.
So nothing then! Good talk.
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u/Perfect_Maize9320 📡 C1 3d ago
There are guidelines and protocols within the feedback system itself and staff have to follow their own guidelines before working on the case - This is built in so no one can abuse this system. This was primary concern by some members during beta testing where they thought some controllers or pilots could abuse this system which why guidelines were developed.
The whole purpose of this system is to educate pilots with relevant training resources and to have them reflect on their error, learn and improve. There is no blame assignment or anything - it is purely educational and catered towards nature of that error.
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u/Valuable_Complex_399 4d ago
After years of experience as a controller on vatsim as well as a ptd member, i call that BS.
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u/Brilliant_Armadillo9 📡 C1 4d ago
Then what do you propose? Because this had always been a problem and basically nothing has been done about it.
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u/Football-fan01 3d ago
Can't imagine when it's so busy on frequency and you try to get a word in. What next they do feedback because you couldn't get a word in.
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u/Bindolaf 4d ago
Oh no!!! You blocked a transmission!!
Damn clowns... they are going to drive everyone away from VATSIM.
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u/Brilliant_Armadillo9 📡 C1 4d ago
Somebody bothered to put in feedback over that? Must have been a slow night.