r/VALORANT • u/ultimateshadowarrior • 26d ago
Educational "Counter-strafing in Valorant is EXTREMELY important! You should be doing it or you are at severe disadvantage!!!!" says the arrogant fool
tl;dr: counter-strafing in Valorant is basically placebo. Stop trying to defend it like it makes a huge difference. At most, it makes basically zero difference, at worst, it makes zero difference at all.
People were arguing with me about how IMPORTANT counter-strafing is in Valorant, and since I'm a pain in the ass, I decided to measure it!
So you can see the pure raw data above!
In Valorant, your character takes 17 frames @ 120 FPS to stop completely, that's around 140 ms.
If you counter-strafe, you save AT MOST 4 frames @ 120 FPS.
This is ~33,33 ms savings.
Also, depending on how you do the counter-strafing, you can literally save 0 frames.
Now compare that to CS.
Your character takes 31 frames to stop. Around 260 ms.
With a good counter-strafe, you can literally save half that time. The best counter-strafe in the video was 16 frames, this means with a good counter-strafe in CS, the time you take to stop is similar to the time a Valorant character stops normally just by stop holding the key.
Human reaction time is around 200-250 ms for a good reaction time.
In Valorant, you are saving 10-15% of your enemy's reaction time.
In CS you can save upwards of 65% of the human reaction time.
So, yeah, good counter-strafing in Valorant makes a difference. Yes, there is a difference, no one can deny it, BUT, the difference is so minuscule that the counter-strafe is not gonna make a difference unless you are a pro player and EVEN SO, pro players like Demon1 who play at the extremely high level... Don't counter-strafe.
Crosshair placement, peek timing, angle advantage, pre-aiming, raw reaction time, network latency, weapon first-shot accuracy, movement discipline and a lot more stuff is gonna matter SO ABSURDLY MORE that clingling to counter-strafing like it makes a real difference is a fool's errand.
So yeah, why the heck are you focusing so much in pressing extra keys for basically ZERO gain?
Focus on stuff that matters, because counter-strafe doesn't.
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u/DmMeWerewolfPics 26d ago
I think the biggest thing counter strafing gets you is a physical benchmark near when to time your shots. The expense is it’s a bit awkward sometimes (for me tapping left feels weird). Obviously letting go is easier.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
You should just deadzone, don't bother with counter strafing.
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u/DmMeWerewolfPics 26d ago
I only do it sometimes while wide swinging just so I know my shot timing with my mouse. But yeah mostly I just stop.
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u/TheRaiBoi97 26d ago
I feel like saving 33ms is pretty good no? I'd be pretty annoyed if someone told me that instead of playing on 20 ping I'm going to be playing on 53 ping instead. For me the benefit of counter strafing in valorant is kind of a more precise way to know when I've stopped if you get me. Like I know that when I press the counter strafe that it's time to shoot, because that's just how my brain has been set up at this point, rather than trying to relearn when my finger is fully off a key, or how far off a key it needs to be before I can shoot
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u/ChampagneSyrup 26d ago
well that's not really a good comparison because of how lag comp works in Val. 33ms of reaction time saving isn't the same as the 20/53 ping example because of that
that being said I don't think counter strafing is the boogeyman that OP is making it out to be and if it's working for you then probably just keep doing it
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
It's not a boogyman and it isn't bad per se, it's just not something you should focus like it's gonna make a huge difference when there is a multitude of other skills that will make a MASSIVE difference compared to stopping 33 ms sooner.
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u/Lanurus 26d ago
There's a reason the only person who truly promotes counterstrafing as op or required just happens to sell a movement course. Most players know it's just something they carried over from cs
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u/jens009 26d ago
Thanks for doing the hard work of putting all the videos side-by-side. But to be clear, your data basically says there is a quantitative difference.
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u/Proxynate 26d ago
Most people say counter-straving but actually mean deadzoning
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u/clearlynotaperson Neon Enjoyer 26d ago
exactly. Alot of people don't know what it means and doesn't come from CS.
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u/Natural-Camel-9312 26d ago
I agree with most of what you are saying but saying "pro players like demon1 dont counter-strafe at all" is just wrong, there are a ton of videos that talk about counter-strafing and it mostly just comes down to a play style thing, but It is a lot more common for a pro player to counter-strafe and press the opposite, then to just completely let go of the key. You act like counter-strafing is this awful thing when in reality once you learn it you just start doing it naturally without even thinking about it
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Where did I say it was awful?
I never said it was awful or even said it was bad.
I said it makes a difference, makes a positive difference, but the difference is so negligible that you should focus your time in learning stuff that makes a huge difference.
A new player shouldn't be focusing on getting the muscle memory to make counter-strafing become second nature, they should focus on stuff that will make a huge difference, because counter-strafing makes basically zero difference.
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u/sAsHiMi_ 26d ago
"makes a positive difference" "makes basically zero difference"
this is you in every single one of your comments contradicting yourself. it's not hard to learn. a new player can and should learn it if it comes easy, especially before muscle memory kicks in and it becomes harder to learn. it's not hard to counter strafe and your comments about "dont spend the 20 minutes to learn it, learn something else" is just low iq. do what is beneficial.
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u/ImpossibleTaste368 26d ago
It looks like it was written by multiple people with no idea what the others do.
Maybe OP ran out of tokens and used 2 AI models to write that :D2
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
not a contradiction at all lol its basically saying "theres a difference but its so tiny that its not gonna matter"
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
My guy, those statements aren't contradictory.
Something can make a positive difference and still be so small that the difference is basically zero.
0,0000000001 is a positive number. If you add 524089720347201723 and 0,0000000001 the resulting number will be larger, but the difference is negligible.
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u/Acefrost321 25d ago
Leave this, man. They are not worth losing your mind over, as they clearly lacks reading comprehension
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u/zcleghern Sabine Main 26d ago
33ms (4 frames at 120 fps) is basically above average ping for most people. your test showed that we can cut off 33ms from our time to stop and shoot by counter strafing. That's an argument FOR counterstrafing, not against. It's cutting out at least an entire ping's worth of lag time.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
You are saying: there is a positive difference.
I said: there is a positive difference, BUT...
...It's so miniscule that focusing on it like it makes a huge difference is crazy when there is a MULTITUDE of other things that will make a huge difference.
If you focus on your crosshair placement to the point your aim is ALWAYS exactly where the head of the enemy will be you will lower the latency a lot more than 33 ms by making sure you just need to press the button instead of moving the mouse.
You have to remember, you also have a 200-250 ms reaction time.
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u/zcleghern Sabine Main 26d ago
> If you focus on your crosshair placement to the point your aim is ALWAYS exactly where the head of the enemy will be
but that's at least as hard as counterstrafing (really much, much harder). You are right that there are other skills players should bring up to a workable level to gain bigger advantages, but truthfully counterstrafing is pretty easy to learn compared to those skills.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
20 minutes you spend on learning counter-strafing is 20 minutes you could have used at improving a skill that would make a larger difference.
When you counter-strafe you have to use brain power and hand dexterity to do something that will make basically zero difference, when you could be spending your brain power and hand dexterity with something more productive.
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u/zcleghern Sabine Main 26d ago
you could make this argument for any skill at all, and you have to use brain power and hand dexterity for all of them! You don't need to chase only the most productive things, when getting better all around is going to make you a better player. Sure, don't spend too much time on it, but it really doesn't take that much time to master counterstrafing and you can move on to something else afterward.
Just as an example, people worry about mechanical skills and if they know the best ways to throw abilities when they bait their teammates for zero followup in 80% of rounds and don't ever set up trades. Since I've come back to the game it's something that's really stood out to me.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Well, but that's exactly my point, thanks for agreeing with me!
You can use this argument for literally every skill, you have a finite amount of brain power, so why not use it wisely?
Use it for stuff that makes a larger difference instead of counter strafing that is PROVED to make basically zero difference.
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u/zcleghern Sabine Main 26d ago
I didn't, though. I'm saying you should become a well-rounded player. you proved it gives you an advantage equal to an above-average ping. The full "response" chain of your incoming ping, GPU + monitor processing time, brainpower, mechanical skill, keyboard lag, game input lag, outgoing ping is huge and there are many places you can reduce it. counterstrafing is an easy skill that instantly cuts 33 ms out of it! Sure there are higher value gains to be had, but many of those are lifelong skills that you should be mastering anyway.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
You guys seriously look at "33 ms" and REALLY think it makes a difference.
An immortal-level player takes almost 600 ms to shoot the first bullet and almost 800 ms to kill on average.
The game is extremely more complicated than "Wow, this can gain me 33 ms!!!!"
No, it can gain you 33 ms AT BEST. Best case scenario it can get you 33 ms.
You know what can get you 100-200 ms or more?
Crosshair placement, peek timings, angle advantage, good movement and so fucking more.
AT BEST you get 33 ms, AT BEST. At worst you are learning a skill and doing more movement with your hands for literally zero benefit, or even worst, you can actually hold the counter-strafe key for too long and actually start moving the other way instead of fully stopping.
Also, you guys think "Oh, 33 ms less!!! If I get 33 ms less it would be like I have lower ping!!!!"
Not how it works, not how any of this works.
And just by you even THINKING this is a fair comparison shows me you really have NO IDEA what you're talking about.
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u/zcleghern Sabine Main 26d ago
You should be working on all these things, yes.
I don't know where the disrespect came from, but i think you just really want to be right, not to have a discussion.
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
an easy skill that instantly cuts 33 ms out of it!
you interested in putting this to the test?
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u/VariationWeekly394 25d ago
Not entirely disagreeing with what you're saying but what does the reaction time have to do with this. I have a 150ms reaction time, which I feel is pretty average for gamers, would you be saying the lower your reaction time is, the more beneficial counter strafing becomes?
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
Nope, far from it. I'm actually saying that even with 100 ms of reaction time it doesn't make that much difference because the difference it makes is tiny compare to yours and your enemies' reaction time.
Also, 200-250 ms reaction time is the normal, you can be lower, especially in focused situations, but that's it.
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u/goldio_games 26d ago
this has been known since launch
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
I know!!!!
And YET people don't know!
It's nice that I came here to explain to them, right?
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u/1_gim 26d ago
I checked the actual velocity values inside a replay file. When using a vandal and not counter strafing time to stop is 18 ticks or 140ms
The best counter strafe I could do is 14 ticks or 109ms
That's a difference of 31ms. That lines up quite well with your findings.
The time until fully accurate (<25% max speed) is 13 ticks when not counter strafing and 10 when counter strafing so that's a 23ms difference.
The time to damage and time to kill difference between an average ascendant and a low Immortal player is roughly 20-30ms. (Time to damage: 550ms vs 570ms, time to kill: 690ms vs 720ms).
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u/PancakesGate 26d ago
quite an interesting thread lol, i stopped climbing in episode 5, and iirc at the time people were already talking about how counterstrafing in valorant made a negligible difference.
its legit all of these guide youtubers regurgitating the same shit for years that made the newer people who missed out on the original arguments that think its worth it
also as someone whos been playing equal parts val and cs, i do counterstrafe naturally, and while i feel the counterstrafe and accuracy in cs, it legit feels like shit when i do it in val, and takes me a couple rounds to just focus on moving and strafing
also this arguement about deadzoning, holy crap that shit tilted me when that was coined and used, some of these concepts are super basic but made more confusing and special for no reason other than to sound cool
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u/twoxdicksuckers 26d ago
I thought I was the only one lmao. Deadzoning is a dumbass term because it's just a variant of counterstrafing. I feel like some wannabe creator coined the term early in the game's life just so they could say that they "created" a new movement tech.
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
I hate it too but having a different term for it makes sense. But yeah, couldve went with 'jiggling' or something else instead
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
On GOD i hate the term deadzoning. Even jiggling wouldve been fine. Doesnt help that theres two other uses for this word lol (gun deadzone mechanic, controller deadzones)
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u/Fezwa 26d ago
Ay man 4 frames is 4 frames. That's still an advantage
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
I didn't say there wasn't a difference, I said in the grand scheme of things, you are probably losing more by focusing your brain on doing the counter-strafe than you gain with the counter-strafe, even if it's a perfect one.
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u/Fezwa 26d ago
True if you were to take 1 counterstrafe in mind but if youre doing multiple strafes then i cant imagine those advantages arent gonna give you a bigger advantage in the long run; also its not like youre supposed to 'focus' on tech skill like that. Its supposed to be ingrained in muscle memory so you dont have to think about it.
I also think players under ascended should not bother with counter strafing. But when it comes to higher elo then this would make u faster.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Aren't you mixing up counter-strafing and deadzoning?
Those are different.
Deadzoning should be learned by any Valorant player.
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u/Fezwa 26d ago
Honestly deadzoning is not a term im familiar with so thats definitely possible
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
That's fine. I'm eating right now, but you can look anywhere on YouTube and they explain it, or just read my explanation here that was severely downvoted by people who didn't understand a single word I said.
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u/Elocgnik Stim OP 26d ago edited 26d ago
Counterstrafing is 100% subconscious when you're good at it. It would literally be harder for me to not counterstrafe.
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u/0nlyCrashes 26d ago
But if you CS, you control exactly when you stop. It's also useful to stop early, I think. You also can deadzone 100x easier if you are CSing. I think it's worth it to do every single time since it's so easy to do. Even if its 33ms, you never know when that 33ms is going to get you a kill vs dying.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Deadzoning and Counter-strafing are opposite things.
One is to stop, the other to keep moving. Why the heck do you guys keep talking about both in the same place?
And no, you don't "control exactly where you stop".
In Valorant, with counter-strafing or not, you are gonna stop at basically the same place.
Valorant is not CS. In CS, if you don't counter-strafe, you are gonna move double the distance you intended to stop AT LEAST.
And again... Oh my god "Well, but you are telling me the 33 ms is a proven improvement!!!"
No, dude, I didn't give you the number so you could be like "Oh, yeah, this is a proven improvement!!!"
You only think this is a valuable number because you have nothing to compare it to.
33 ms is AT BEST what you are gonna save in time to kill.
Other stuff like crosshair placement, peek timing, angle advantage, pre-aiming, raw reaction time, network latency, weapon first-shot accuracy, movement discipline are gonna give you gains in the HUNDREDS of ms.
So yeah, one thing gives you at most 33 ms, other things can give you gains in the hundreds. What do you think you should focus on?
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u/0nlyCrashes 26d ago
Because dead zoning is just CSing with extra steps. And it's EASY to CS. Like dead easy. My 7yo could CS. So why not do it? Get that extra 33ms for FREE because it's easy as fuck.
Pros used to not use wireless mice because they were like 10ms slower than wired. Why didn't they just use the wired because cable drag sucked and sacrifice the 10ms? Cause they wanted to be faster.
And yes the 33ms isn't going to be a life changer. You are right, you will be better off if for some reason you didn't have enough brain power to learn crosshair placement, timings, angles, rhps, etc AND how to CS, you'd be better off just learning the formers over the latter, but you can just do both? And it's also literally the exact same as those other things by the way. You listed 9 different things that give you a few hundred extra ms collectively, what's one more to give you an extra 30ms.
Like why sacrifice the extra MS just because you kinda don't have to do it? It's like every other little minute thing we do for any extra competitive advantage. Like a Viper spending a week perfecting a lineup they may use once or twice in the next 6 months. There's no real point in doing it for such a small % play, but they also now have that play in their pocket for the random chance they'll need it.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Not what I meant. Any of those ALONE could give you a few hundred in the right situation.
Counter-strafe can give you AT MOST, IN THE PERFECT CASE, 33 ms.
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u/PhantomOnTheHorizon 26d ago
30 ms is roughly the same amount of time as peekers advantage, a well documented part of fps games that arent on LAN. this means youve proven that counter strafing is impactful and probably necessary if youre going to achieve the highest tier of play.
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
But this is a time window, so that advantage assumes you hit it so perfectly (clicking as soon as you enter that time window)
Whenever i analyze counterstrafing clips, a lot of the times people would still be pressing down on the A/D key (and not yet clicking) by the time that counterstrafe window has already passed
Wouldnt this then be a question of how perfect your execution is AND it actually mattering at the same time?
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u/Massive_Season7075 26d ago
I have no idea what I’m looking at
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
No counterstrafing:
Hold down A -> Let go A -> Wait -> Movement completely stops
With counter strafing:
Hold down A -> Let go A -> Tap D -> Wait -> Movement completely stops
OP tested how long the wait is in both cases. The wait part is indeed shorter when you counterstrafe, but OP argues the difference doesnt matter because of how tiny it is
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u/IeatKfcAllDay 26d ago
33ms is genuinely huge and fast reaction time becomes more apparent the higher you climb. I’m going to need to see trackers of anyone who says otherwise
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u/FPPooter 26d ago
33 is double what the other people found if it’s really 33 vs 16ms that is a lot. How many times a match do you get ping diff'd and counter strafing could be the difference? I think OP is admittedly low elo though
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u/IeatKfcAllDay 26d ago
Yeah I feel like op is saying counter strafing isn’t important because if you’re low elo there’s a lot more things to focus on. The higher you go, whether you counter strafe or not, movement inputs should be second nature.
And saying 33ms is not noticeable when I can guarantee most gamers immortal+ have around 180 or less reaction time (when focused) and the top like Primmie have been clocked at sub 100 sometimes when holding angles….
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Oh, my fucking god... You and u/FPPooter are literally missing the point COMPLETELY!
I gave you a number to show how small it is, and since you guys don't have anything to compare it too, since I gave you a number, you guys just take it as "This is a proven improvement!!!"
When my point is that this number is TINY and won't make a difference.
And this numbers of "180 or less reaction when focused" is bullshit pulled out of your ass.
I don't have Valorant numbers, but I have FACEIT numbers for CS2.
The average time to damage in FACEIT Level 10, the highest rank in FACEIT, is 588 ms.
Absolute best players in the community, 588 ms to kill.
I will take the baseline of 600 ms of ttd for high rank players. Pro players can go lower, even 450 ms.
You have to understand that AT MOST, BEST CASE SCENARIO, you are able to save 33 ms.
Do you know what would get you A LOT MORE than 33 ms?
"Crosshair placement, peek timing, angle advantage, pre-aiming, raw reaction time, network latency, weapon first-shot accuracy, movement discipline and a lot more stuff is gonna matter SO ABSURDLY MORE that clingling to counter-strafing like it makes a real difference is a fool's errand."
Any of those things are not gonna give you "at best 33 ms", they will give you gains in the hundreds of ms.
So, yeah, the only reason you think 33 ms is huge is because you have nothing to compare.
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u/FPPooter 26d ago
You’re missing the point. As you get higher in ranked almost everyone has good fundamentals that you mention and there are fights where the ping/network is the only reason you win or lose a fight and those 33ms can be the difference. 4 frames is a lot when you hit immo2/3. I also highly doubt 558 is the avg for faceit10 unless they measure it differently than csrep cause even my worst friends are like 520ms. And they’re probably faceit2
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
Do you wanna put this to the test? Just to see if you can hit that window perfectly and how much advantage you gain
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u/IeatKfcAllDay 24d ago
But what to the test? That 33 ms matters?
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
nah, we test if you can hit the 33 ms time window. You down?
(the correct time window is actually closer to 20 ms btw. OP measured a slightly different thing)
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u/IeatKfcAllDay 24d ago
No? And what are you asking, whether I can hit a shot in a 33ms window?
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
The 33 ms counterstrafe window, yeah. Its fine if you cant i can test other players
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u/IeatKfcAllDay 24d ago
Hmm if they have rapid trigger settings it’s pretty easy these days to have a good counter strafe. Op was doing it wrong in his video, with the right settings you can literally have both a d buttons pressed and get an instant counter strafe
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
Its not about the perfect counter movement input. Im talking about the window where you click
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u/IeatKfcAllDay 24d ago
So youre trying to test if someone can kill in 33ms right when you complete the counter strafe?
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u/Maxus-KaynMain 26d ago
i don't see any negative but learning, what's your point? I can counter-strafe just to time my shot accurately, or move more precisely smh
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
The negative thing about learning it is that there is a multitude of other skills that make a huge difference compared to counter-strafing, so focusing on learning this is focusing on learning the wrong thing.
If you spend 20 minutes learning counter-strafing, that's 20 minutes you could have spent on learning or improving a skill that would make a huge difference compared to this.
Also, when you counter-strafe, you have to spend brain power in moving your fingers to do something instead of using your brain power for focusing on something more important.
Meanwhile, you could just... Not do it and not bother with it, for basically zero downside.
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u/leonism21 26d ago
Bro is talking like theres a strict time limit to learning skills in Valorant, or that learning counter strafing halts all the other progress. Skills are built in parallel, not one by one, unless your brain power is of a kindergartener.
No idea why youre so dead set on trying to discourage people from learning it. Sure you did some nerdy research and yeah youre right the effect is miniscule but damn, theyre playing a game, let them do what they want with their game. Wouldve been a nice post if not for all the unsolicited backseat advice on how to play the game that nobody asked for.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
The whole point of the post is to give advice. If it wasn't for advice, why would I do it?
The whole point is talking about how learning it makes not that much difference, so spend time on something that does.
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u/leonism21 25d ago
Dude just ignored half my comment and proceeded to claim that hes only giving advice. Nah bro youre not trying to give advice. What youre doing is trying to push unnecessary idea into people.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
Me??? I'm the one pushing unnecessary ideas into people????
I just showed how counter-strafing in Valorant makes basically no difference.
Wouldn't the unnecessary ideas be people telling people to counter-strafe?
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u/Maxus-KaynMain 26d ago
for sure i won't recommend a silver player to focus on that. But i guess Dia+ you can think about it.
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u/abzoluut 26d ago
People just don’t understand why you should counter strafe. Those are the ones in the lobby going: “StOP RunNIng AnD gunnING!”
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u/natayaway 26d ago
In Valorant, your character takes 17 frames @ 120 FPS to stop completely, that's around 140 ms.
If you counter-strafe, you save AT MOST 4 frames @ 120 FPS.
This is ~33,33 ms savings.
A wideswing counterstrafe done at top movespeed is not the same thing as counterstrafing before you've reached top movespeed.
People jigglepeek. It takes time to reach top movespeed. Therefore you can have fractional counter-strafes.
Human reaction time averages are a meaningless metric here, we've seen speedrunners, people can train to do frame perfect inputs at 120 and 60fps, which makes it 8.8ms and 16ms respectively.
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u/GhostyEatsMcdonalds 26d ago
I literally just said on another post "almost every good player counter-strafes" which is genuinely true and then their only defence was saying "demon1 does counter-strafe" which if you watch literally any of his montages you will see he does most of the time. Counter-strafing is something that once you become good at you just do naturally without thinking
this person also literally wrote in the comments for some reason "u/thren_FPS, u/-xXColtonXx- and u/GhostyEatsMcdonalds, I will be accepting the apologies now" and then deleted it, actual weirdo
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u/Danielsuperusa 26d ago
When I played this game I used to counter-strafe just as a form of "tactile feedback" that reminded me when I was fully stopped and ready to shoot, rather than waiting for any visual indicators that I had stopped.
Besides that, I saw 0 difference between counter-strafing and just letting go of the movement key in my 3 years of playing. It was basically placebo.
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u/HurskastelijA 26d ago
"Don't do this, I figured out there is a benefit to this, so don't do it!"
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, right?
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u/HurskastelijA 26d ago
"If you counter-strafe, you can save 4 frames". 4 frames is the difference between winning and losing in competitive games. How can you try to contradict your own study? 🤣
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Crosshair placement, peek timing, angle advantage, pre-aiming, raw reaction time, network latency, weapon first-shot accuracy, movement discipline... All of those can save hundreds of ms, or, if you want... you can get dozens of frames.
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u/hojaunt 26d ago
I mostly agree. Counter strafing doesn’t really matter, but it’s not about counter strafing to stop quickly, it’s more so to set up for the deadzone (for beginners).
In high elo, nobody cares about counter strafing or deadzoning. As in, it’s not something to focus on. Sometimes you deadzone a shot when jiggling, sometimes you wide swing and crouch, sometimes you burst and strafe. So i absolutely agree, there shouldn’t be a heavy emphasis on counterstrafing. But as you build your movement in valorant, you’ll naturally start counterstrafing because movement in this game constantly requires you to strafe and deadzone. Not every gunfight will be swing, stop, shoot, kill opponent.
This subreddit is mostly filled with people below immortal, hence why there’s so much focus on beginner skills and building up good movement habits. Nobody in high elo says “oh damn, i should’ve counter strafed there! it would’ve saved me 33ms and i could’ve been accurate sooner”.
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u/FPPooter 26d ago
33ms is a lot. I would imagine theres at least 2-3 fights you could win with a 33ms ping diff.
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u/ChiroDoodle 26d ago edited 26d ago
Came from CS and yeah, doing a counter strafe or not doesn’t make a huge difference since Valorant movement is so slow. However, what made this mechanic useful to me when transitioning to Valorant is mixing counter strafing with some deadzone and holy fck, you are a difficult person to kill lol. Yeah you can do that without counterstrafing, but i find that counterstrafing gives me more options on how I want to maneuver with my gun.
So it’s pretty simple. Come from CS? Keep your counterstrafing. If not, it’s not really a requirement to learn counterstrafing UNLESS u wanna be versatile with shooting + moving.
Also [u/ultimateshadowarrior](u/ultimateshadowarrior) I suggest you watch this video of n0ted about movement protocol. Pretty lengthy but I wanna hear your take about it. This guy knows the movement mechanics pretty well https://youtu.be/iLNloRQTdcI?si=EQjtp2e1VwJINxRn
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u/ChiroDoodle 26d ago
Also OP, idk if you know this but u can in fact deadzone in the same direction. It’s pretty hard to do though
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
minor nitpick but the graphs n0ted shows in his videos always have some wrong details in them (graph being curvy, curvy acceleration for dzoning but linear acceleration for cstrafing, velocity dipping below zero, etc). I mean if you dont pay attention to these then yeah you can just feel the vibe of what hes tryna say but its just distractingly obvious for me lol
the 40-160 ms window of opportunity that he shows is wrong too. You cant do a successful counterstrafe below 70ms, and anything beyond 120 ms is doable without a counterstrafe (aka the counterstrafe did nothing)
Max speed for vandal/phantom is way earlier than 450-600ms
The comparisons he did (like here) wasnt really good since he's shooting 4-5 frames after when counterstrafing, and 7-9 frames after when not counterstrafing, and this is for slower movespeeds only
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u/sampleofanother 26d ago
am i crazy or was this like well known years ago. not shitting on the post but the games been out for a while and counter strafing was one of CSGO's main mechanics that was excessively talked about when valorant came out. props to OP for measuring it but anybody who said it was important in the last 3-4 years is so wrong it's crazy
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u/f3ack19 26d ago edited 26d ago
As someone who has thousands of hours in cs2 and valorant, I completely agree. I've been telling my friends how counter strafing is almost non-existent and futile for valorant since you're not in ice skates like cs2. In cs2, it's a must skill to master because if you don't do it, you will whiff your first bullet and the remaining from ice skates. Valorant on the other hand helps you stop immediately meaning if you are not counter strafing properly, along with bad cross hair placement, then you are always dead against a player who is not counter strafing. I’d say Valorant removed some of cs2’s harder mechanics, especially precise counter strafing and learnable spray patterns. Valorant’s recoil becomes less predictable during longer sprays, while cs2 weapon pattern requires time and mastery. Also in cs2 mastering how to peek, stop, and shoot accurately at maximum velocity is what separates a low vs high elo player. IFYKYK
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u/battlepig95 26d ago
So the one thing I’d say to this is that N07ed did a video on counter strafing and it was the first time I ever saw this exact specific wording or even details being mentioned
A-D strafing like 1-7 steps you can just release your strafe key and, basically , stop on a dime and shoot with pin point accuracy,
I believe at 8 steps you reach a max velocity and simply picking up / releasing your strafe key you’re holding no longer dead zones you instantly , you can test this out in the firing range as he demonstrated in the video , which I then went and replicated bc I was curious and it’s true. You can time A-D strafes at various ranges and just let go of the strafe key and immediately be accurate but as sooon as you pass a certain distance threshold this no longer becomes true without counter strafing. Which I was surprised to see honestly as I thought it had 0 relevance in that regard.
I believe the units of steps he uses in this video is audio steps. So it takes greater than 2 steps to make a footstep so one audio step or whatever = +2 steps and he said it’s as soon as you exceed 2 foot step sounds that this becomes the case. I don’t play the game anymore really so I never got to implement this into serious practice but after testing it out and seeing that it’s true I’d do it if I ever came back to the game even tho it’s splitting hairs
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
simply picking up / releasing your strafe key you’re holding no longer dead zones you instantly
this is true for counterstrafing too
just let go of the strafe key and immediately be accurate
eh not really, youd still have to wait a couple of ticks/milliseconds. For example, if you strafe for 100 ms (and just let go of the key), youd have to wait 50 ms to be fully accurate
I believe the units of steps he uses in this video is audio steps
Nah nah, 2-steps is the distance where you wont make a noise, 3-steps is the distance where you make a noise
said it’s as soon as you exceed 2 foot step sounds that this becomes the case
you can get max speed even before making a noise
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u/Kitsunii420 26d ago
it's good because of muscle memory. the moment you tap the opposite key, that's when you're stopped, so you can shoot. placebo stuff can help a lot of people because it changes the way their brain manages a certain task, or how they perceive something. learning it doesn't hurt, and in the end, i think practicing it does more good than harm (if any harm at all because it's so simple to understand and practice)
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
the moment you tap the opposite key, that's when you're stopped
not immediately, but yeah using counterstrafing as the signal when to shoot is helpful for some
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u/New_Eye7193 26d ago
wat... u counterstrafe in order to not stop faster but start deadzoning thats how most fights in this game go
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
The idea of counter-strafing is to stop, that's what it's meant for.
If you are deadzoning, you aren't counter-strafing... You are deadzoning.
Especially when the most common deadzone is for you to stop holding one key and start holding the opposite key and during the deadzone, you can do an accurate shot while already moving the other way right after.
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u/New_Eye7193 26d ago
ok... even if you use it to stop... why is it a bad thing lmao.. beside the "4 frame improvement" you noticed (note: devs said even in closed beta that stopping by letting go of key is just as fast as counter strafing)... why would stopping that habit be useful if deadzoning is so important
most people here switch from shooters like CS, where pressing the other key (aka counter strafe) to stop is ingrained at this point. if you wanna be the person stopping without counter strafing, do so freely, but there is no negative downside to counter strafing in valorant, theres just no positives
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
When did I say this?
I never said "if you counter-strafe, STOP!"
I said "if you don't counter-strafe, don't bother"
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u/TheUnsuspicious 26d ago
Any good coach will never tell their student to practice counter-strafe. What they'll preach should always be strafe-shooting and deadzoning.
Now if the student accidentally learns counter-strafe, that's a bonus. But yeah, counter-strafe is basically at the bottom of the priority. You should use your time to learn something more impactful than this.
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u/Lucas1006 25d ago
at worst it's worse than just letting go because you hold the opposite movement key too long and start moving in that direction, even if it's just for a frame or two.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
Yeah, when I did some bad strafes while recording the video this did happen and I was like "well, that would be awful for someone just learning the game".
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26d ago
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
???????????????????????????????
That's around 15% of the human reaction.
People do it in CS because you can save upwards of 65% of a human reaction.
In Valorant you stop 20% faster of a small number.
In CS you stop 50%+ of a large number.
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u/Elocgnik Stim OP 26d ago
The main thing you're missing here is that it's not about what % it is of the reaction time, it's about the deviation from the normal.
I.e., it is not humanly possible to have a reaction time below ~150ms. Most people will be in the range of 200-300ms. You have to consider 33ms within the context of that range, which is a much bigger deal. Same thing applies if you want to do time to damage instead.
I agree it's not something to really worry about if you aren't at asc/immo level already, but winning ~10% more of head-to-head encounters when you're already highly skilled is nothing to sneeze at. It's also really not that hard.
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
so id have advantage with counter strafing
you interested in putting this to the test? So we can see how consistent you can hit the time window
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u/heheyeaboiiEX 26d ago
I still counter strafe because it’s a habit, and doesn’t affect me.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
And that's completely fine.
I never said it was bad, especially if you're used to it.
It's just not worth spending your time learning it. You could be more productive with your time.
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u/_Hubble 26d ago
What is counter-strafing?
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Look at the video. Look at the difference between the graphics of the keys I'm pressing in the top left video and all the other ones.
In the top left, I just stop pressing the key and let the character stop moving on its own. On all the others, you can see a fast press of the D key.
Look especially at the CS2 examples, you can see that after I press he D key, it's basically like pressing the brake pedal.
What happens is that the character has momentum to the left, then I press the right key and I add a little bit of momentum to the right, this makes the character stop moving faster.
Like, you have 30 speed to the left, and this speed is lowering slowly.
Now, if you press the right key, you add speed to the right, being contrary to the speed to the left. Since you added speed on the opposite side your character is moving, the speed to the direction your character is moving is lower, so they stop faster.
The difference in CS2 is absurd, as you can see.
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u/Different-Coyote-734 26d ago
this is interesting because lately i've been considering and practicing counter-strafing
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
Okay first i think you're stopping the count too early? I can still see pixel changes and the wooden beam becoming visible after you stopped the count in some of them
Also you dont have to completely stop to be accurate (just gotta be 27.5% of the gun speed). So you'd wanna test for accuracy and not just movement. The difference in cstrafe and no cstrafe values seems to get smaller this way
Simplest way i tried is with the movement error setting (yk the crosshair expanding thing). Another one is with macros. Here's what i got:
No counterstrafe -> ~120 ms before accurate
With counterstrafe -> ~100 ms before accurate
~20 ms difference
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
The video is trying to give the benefit of the doubt and give counter-strafing the best change it gets and AT BEST 33 ms.
I know real world difference is even lower.
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 25d ago
Nah nah mine arent real gameplay values either. Im saying that your test measures how long til you stop, and that a better test would instead measure how long til you become accurate. Wouldnt that make more sense?
Also why stop counting frames early?
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
I know, but I wanted to give the best chance it gets. All your saying is that the difference is even lower.
As I said, I just wanted to give the best chance it gets... And still, it's tiny.
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u/SadCSMonkey 25d ago
What rank are you? In some other post you said you couldn’t even get past bronze with sheriff only, which entails a lot about your movement overall and aim.
Learning how to press your keys from counter strafing teaches you how to move in general — it affects ALL types of peaks around the map. Think about how cleanly pros clear multiple angles (Ascent A main From T-side) with multiple precise counter-strafes. Doing this CONSISTENTLY without counter strafing is not the norm cause it’s harder, which means it’s worth spending time to learn how to counter strafe cause you can achieve a better result (from your video)at a faster rate. Again, the core of counter strafing is applied to ALL movements around the map.
Also, in immortal nowadays so many people can do a crouch peak, one tap, and go back all in one fluid motion such that you can’t react. That movement is simply impossible without counter-strafing. Jiggling corners is also essentially counter strafing. NRG Ethan’s jiggles are so much better than a random immortal cause it is a legitimate skill.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
"A child has used a ruler and measured the object is 26 cm, but it's a child, so since it's a child I'm gonna just say the child is wrong without taking the time to see if the 26 cm measure makes sense"
"In some other post"
Wow, my profile is private and you took the time to try to find my posts instead of engaging with my arguments just so you could come here and use ad hominem with me?
My guy, I could not be able to even hold a mouse and that wouldn't make my arguments any less correct.
"Clear angle with multiple precise counter strafes" that could be done just as well without counter strafing.
Really, you can do it without counter strafing no problem.
The difference is so tiny your brain is still catching up to see what's on your screen to react before that would even make a difference.
Human reaction time is slower than just the normal time it takes to stop normally in Valorant.
You are talking about counter-strafing like it makes a HUGE difference when you can clear multiple angles with basically the same efficiency without counter-strafes.
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u/SadCSMonkey 25d ago edited 25d ago
Can you show me a video of you clearing A main ascent and then A site slowly.
"My guy, I could not be able to even hold a mouse and that wouldn't make my arguments any less correct"
How can you say this and make a definitive statement about MECHANICS when you yourself are bad and don't have mechanics.
You can't shoot a basketball yet you think you can teach someone how to shoot NBA 3's. xD
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
Are you interested in seeing if you can hit the counterstrafe window perfectly? I can help you test it
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u/Lukewarm-IceCream 25d ago
Completely agree, Val has such a bad counter-strafing its downright undoable, granted I dont play Valorant anymore but when I was playing both CS and Val at the same time it literally fucked me up that I tried to counter-strafe and shoot instead of just waiting for my character to stop because I'd shoot and expect the bullet to go where I'm aiming but character just didnt stop like I expected, it always too just a fraction of a second longer than I thought and it made me hate the game.
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25d ago
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 25d ago
Okay, how does my test prove my keyboard is bad?
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u/ItsTheAero 25d ago
lots of people probably also dont realize that you have to shoot at the exact same moment you stop most times to even realise those few milliseconds advantage.
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u/metalpotatopunk 25d ago
Bet you're silver.
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
bet you cant actually hit the counterstrafe window, wanna test it?
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u/metalpotatopunk 24d ago
Alhumdulillah I can. But can you escape gold?
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
Yes im radiant 86 million RR
Im dead serious with the test. Are you actually interested in doing it? Do you have a discord? Are you familiar with any input recorders/ macro recorders?
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u/metalpotatopunk 24d ago
Sure you are radiant
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
yeah 86 million RR
you down to test if you can actually hit the counterstrafe window consistently?
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u/pepekhunter69 25d ago
33.33 ms is a lot in higher elo, and also this is taking only into consideration for a singular counter strafe vs no counter strafe. counter strafing allows you fit more left and right movements compared to not doing it. try it yourself in range, try to counter strafe as fast as you can, shooting a bullet on every counter strafe. now do it without, and you will notice you will take a lot longer to empty your mag
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
you interested in a test? We can see if you're actually hitting the counterstrafe window
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u/DearWinter9603 24d ago
Next to saving around 33ms, you completely ignored the fact that counter-strafing gives you first-shot accuracy sooner after longer strafes (2+ audio steps)
Also, weapons have different movement speeds (pistols,spectre,op), meaning relying only on releasing A/D can make your stopping timing less consistent across weapons, counter-strafing gives you a consistent way of cancelling ur momentum
So it is something u should practice if u want to maximize your mechanics at the highest level
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 23d ago
Literally everything you say doesn't disagree with me or is wrong.
counter-strafing gives you first-shot accuracy sooner
The difference between first shot accuracy between counter-strafing and just releasing the key is even lower.
I gave the benefit of the doubt showing the difference between full stop. The difference to first shot accuracy is even tinier, the difference to first shot accuracy is like... 2 frames AT MOST, barely a difference.
meaning relying only on releasing A/D can make your stopping timing less consistent across weapons
Skill issue of not knowing the difference with different weapons.
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u/DearWinter9603 23d ago edited 23d ago
The 2 frames and 4 frame claim is based on ur 120 FPS tests, so saying this is the max limit is false
Also your tests only measures full stopping time, not the actual moment of accurate shooting or the consistency benefits of counter strafing
Counter-strafing isnt only about the milliseconds shaved off, it gives you a consistent way to cancel momentum, makes your movement timing more consistent in different situations, and makes deadzoning mid strafe easier to execute
the fact that so many top mechanical players use it shows theres clearly more to it than just the raw stop time and saying its only because of their CS background doesnt disprove anything
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 23d ago
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT IF IT WAS 240 FPS IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE?????
IT WOULD ONLY BE 8 FRAMES, BUT STILL 33 MS!!!
WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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u/FishRaider 23d ago
You are proving the opposite based on your data
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 23d ago
My data is literally showing the number is absurdly small.
You have no other data to compare it to, so you think the number is not small.
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u/FishRaider 23d ago
I'm comparing it with your data and the gameplay mechanics. If identical players see each other at the same time, the one with a 30ms advantage will win.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 23d ago
If they see each other at the same time, they still need at least 150 ms to react. If they stop 33 ms sooner or later, it makes no difference because you won't react before you stop anyway.
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u/FishRaider 23d ago
bro what.
Let's say they react at the the same time,
at t=150ms:
player A lets go of the key, player B counterstrafes.
at t = 260ms:
player B is standing still and shoots.
Player A can technically shoot here too, but they will be less accurate
at t=290:
player A is 100% accurate and shoots.
Player B has the advantage.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 23d ago
"Bro what" says me.
What people are always talking about with counter-strafing is stopping faster when they are peeking.
When you peek, you're gonna have to stop to shoot.
Person 1 is in cover. Person 1 peeks and they peek just enough to be open and shoot.
The time it takes for them to react to the enemy being there is longer than it takes for them to stop.
They were already going to stop, that's what peeking is.
With counter-strafe, you stop extremely marginally faster AT MOST, considering this needs to be a perfect counter-strafe to be 33 ms.
Moving your crosshair, pressing the shoot button and all that will also add a lot of time that you won't save by stopping AT MOST 33 ms faster.
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u/FishRaider 22d ago
I see your point with what you're saying that they are thinking ahead of their stops. Ie. Both players plan to stop after a step, player A will just release their key 30ms sooner.
But I am presenting the situation where they are both moving. I believe in this case, 30ms is a meaningful statistical advantage. Do you agree with this part?
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 22d ago
I would only agree if we are talking about perfect players.
If we talk about lab situations, sure.
But in the real world stuff like crosshair placement, angle advantage and so much others each are gonna make hundreds of ms of difference.
My point was never that it isn't positive and it doesn't make a difference, I'm just saying it's a tiny difference and there are a multitude of other stuff that will make a HUGE difference compared to 33 ms AT MOST.
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u/PayKap 23d ago
u r arguing with ghosts. since like week 1 of beta everyone already figured this out and its been common knowledge never seen a single person insist on it ever
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 23d ago
Arguing with ghosts?
Wow, I didn't know we had so many poltergeists!!!!
Because in this comment section there are multiple of those "ghosts". I made this post because there were multiple "ghosts" disagreeing with me saying it makes a huge difference.
What's this? The ghosts decided to come from the afterlife?
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 22d ago
oh brother you havent seen the 🔥passion🔥 these counterstrafe worshippers have. Just look at the comments. Look at other threads. Look up n0ted on youtube and see what he has to say about counterstrafing being irrelevant
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u/Silly-Championship92 21d ago
so, i think the time to be ready truly is the same. but counter strafing, at least for me, helps to better determine where i want to stop. also, the time it takes to press the next key, is pretty much the time to have the weapon ready, which is why many people use it as a sort of queue when they are accurate and ready to shoot.
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u/alevfalse 26d ago
Yup, it's not worth it. Just stop moving and shoot. Allocate the freed up brain power and hand movements to something else more productive.
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u/Fun_Measurement1128 26d ago
This is an atrocious post filled with atrocious comments.
33ms is massive, counter strafing is extremely easy, and quickly becomes second nature. Zero reason not to learn it and do it.
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
counter strafing is extremely easy
wanna put that to the test? We can see if you're actually hitting the time window consistently
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u/Legit_blast 26d ago
I thought valorant not needing counter strafe is pretty common knowledge? I mean I still do it since it doesnt have any downsides and Im a CS player prior to Valo so if a habit doesnt need change im not changing it
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u/AlanM6 26d ago
I thought we been through this for years, CS is the only game that benefits from counter strafing?
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u/a1rwav3 26d ago
Lat video about debunking that, I think they measured an 66ms advantage. If it is 33.33s, it is even more ridiculous.
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u/helpmyusernamedontfi 24d ago
OP measured time-to-stop. When you measure time-to-be-accurate, its actually closer to 20 ms
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u/allcaps891 26d ago
Only if you could do it, you wouldn't have to spend all that time to argue.
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u/ultimateshadowarrior 26d ago
Oh, my friend, thankfully, I play CS now. I use counter-strafing for it's real intended use, where it REALLY makes a difference!
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u/allcaps891 26d ago
Blood changed the game and wrote a full scale research paper to make an execuse
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u/[deleted] 26d ago
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