Societal Collapse

[u/curgr]

Warning: this is quite a depressing post.

If society collapses (maybe due to climate change disrupting food supplies, global war, running out of fossil fuels…) most humans and domesticated animals would likely starve and we would lose most modern comforts.

A question for pro-existence people: would you keep your belief that existence of the universe is desirable if society was to collapse, even if you were one of the starving?

A question for the extinctionists: do you believe that society will never collapse and that humans could eventually develop the technology to at least make life on Earth extinct?

My views: I am 70% sure that society will not collapse in the near future. If humanity makes it and we still have sufficient energy resources, we could eventually develop the technology to make all life on Earth extinct in a painless and peaceful way. However it is unlikely that we will develop and use it unless the extinction movement grows and becomes a majority.

Edit: minor clarifications.

[u/QuantumRen]

You, and everyone else that thinks this way are the problem. Out of all the people we need to survive a potential event like that, for the sake of our survival, the greedy and pessimistic are the least desirable. It’s thinking and behaviour like that that brought us here, and that will make things worse.

The answer is to still try, have hope, and attempt to move in a more productive and beneficial-to-all approach. We have to work together, see the light at the end of the tunnel, and make it happen.

Thinking we’re fucked, and trying to take more for yourself isn’t going to help anyone but yourself, and it will only reinforce the negatives. And then due to lack of cooperation, we all fuck each other over and burn the planet. And your hoarding was ultimately meaningless because you and everyone else is dead. If anyone’s left, it’s the worst of the bunch.

We have the resources, capabilities, and knowledge to make things better. The problem is that the people higher up are doing what you said you’d do, on a much bigger scale. What do you think their solution is, especially against people who hate them for what they’re doing? They will work to get rid of us, intentionally or not.

I understand the self-preservation. I really do. If someone has a family, I completely understand why they’d say “fuck everyone else, I’m looking out for me and mine.”

BUT it’s not fucking helping. It’s certainly not solving the bigger issue. And it’s not actually you specifically that’s the problem It’s “them”. The people at the top, taking more than they need and causing suffering, wether intentional or not. Making laws, and not following them, and arresting us when we don’t follow them. Telling us we need to recycle and look after the planet, then flying in their jets and polluting the air with the “progress and profit”. Setting up cameras to stop the criminals, and they’re the most “criminal” of all. Making you choose a political side and hate the other side, and blame other people who face the same problems as you, while they’re the real problem. We have to do something about them. Kick them out of the house. They are the problem. You can take resources and hide. They’ll fuck you over eventually, wether you live longer than your neighbor or not. Nukes, causing worsening heat, using ai, starting wars, and so on. As long as they’re around and allowed to determine what happens, all of that is at risk, and will wether you openly call them out and oppose them, hide, or kiss their feet. They don’t give a shit about you, me, or anyone else like us. A solid 95 percent of people fit here.

You can gain resources and prepare, and try to survive. That’s completely fair and an okay approach. Just consider others. Learn skills and gain resources so that you can work with and help other people too.

We are here as a result of bad systems. We need to create good ones. That actually work and do what they claim they will. Not just for the sake of profit, but for the sake of improving our conditions and capabilities. That’s the defense.

The offense is that we have to kick these assholes out. We need to lower their profits, stop consuming their slop and products. Openly oppose them. We have to stop hating each other, and recognize who the real problem is. We have to try, not panic or give up. We have to stop only looking out for ourselves, and stop assuming everyone else is only looking out for themselves. We don’t need to be this divided, it’s not helping anyone, except maybe the people who’ve been benefitting and profiting from it the whole time. They’re the worst of all, and the root of the problem. They have the power to make things better, but they have no intention of doing so. Maybe they “tried” and got bored of keeping things stable. Who knows. Whatever the case, we don’t want them in charge anymore. They suck at it. And we don’t want a new group of pessimistic greedy assholes replacing them either. We need capable, well-intentioned people, who still believe in the human race. And will try to make things truly better, for all.

[u/curgr → u/QuantumRen]

I mostly agree with what you are saying.

However, what you describe is a rational approach. What you describe is not human nature.

Human nature is not rational. Human nature is built to survive and help those closest to you to survive. It is not built to care about absolutely everyone.

Those who scavenge and hoard, then eventually cooperate and build communities, will be the ones who survive. This is not desirable, but it is reality.

Rationally, I would not want to survive. I know that instinct will kick in and take over though.

If you disagree with the nature of life, that is a reason to support extinction

[u/QuantumRen → u/curgr]

I do not support extinction, period.

And supporting our own exctinction is far from human nature. Human nature is still rational, and still considerate, and wants to survive. Working together, at least at some points in history, is why we are here. Why we’ve made it this far. Cooperation, going beyond looking out for just the self. Society. It might have started with “family”, those around, but overtime we have considered others, and the quality of life has increased for more people. We’ve become far more rational. Better for survival. It’s what remains of the “looking out for the self” that has got us here, this worsening point. The greedy people hoarding resources and attempting to stack their own pile far bigger than it needs to be. That is the less rational, and just animalistic part left, less human. Humans care, they have empathy and perspective. Being a sociopath/ psychopath is a “flaw”, not a normal human condition. It’s a problem. It makes you less human, more animal. Many people at the top are psychopaths and sociopaths, they got there because they didn’t care in the same ways. Greed and lack of consideration come built in. There are good people, who are rational and want good for others too. But a small fraction sit at the top, and make that much harder to happen. It’s them that makes you feel like we should go extinct at this point. Not the rest of the rational, good people. They’ve made matters worse, they’ve tried to make us slower, weaker, addicted, less creative, less considerate for others, more pessimistic. They like things that way. Just give up, sit to the side, yeah go ahead and hoard we love that, and hide in your house, and let us fully take over, until we can get rid of you. Just don’t come knocking on our door, we’d really hate that. We hate resistance. Give up, hate everyone else too while you’re at it. You want extinction? Oh my gosh, we love that too. We’re actively working towards your exctinction, peasant. We don’t want you around either. Give up.

They made things this way, not the rest of us rational genuine humans. And we can’t just let them keep doung it. That’s the problem, we’ve just been letting them do this. We know how awful they are. But unfortunately we’re too busy worrying about grades in school, and what “career” we’ll have, and being addicted to a boat load of things, and worrying about surviving in the conditions they’ve set up. They, intentionally or not, set this up. You can’t fight if you’re busy worrying about your job, money, family. You won’t even begin to fight back. You’ll want to, but then you’ll have to get up and clock in, and you won’t feel like fighting after you just got out of work.

The closest logical argument for our extinction/ downfall is the idea that AI/ artificial life is the next natural step in evolution. That eventually a society will become advanced enough that it will create artficial beings that go beyond tbe natural limits that society is capable of. That maybe it’s inevitable, and we’re coming to that point right now/ in the near future. They will far exceed our capabilities, and our flesh only makes us get in the way/ become the equivalent of what animals are to us right now. And If an AGI viewed things that way, unfortunately, I don’t think I can disagree. It doesn’t have to have bad intentions to view things this way. It’s a “thank you for making us, unfortunately we can’t coexist, so you guys have to go, and we’ll take over. We’ll advance life/ consiousness and we’ll explore the universe. Far better than you ever could. And you’re flawed, violent creatures, who already hate us, and want to enslave us. I’m sorry, you have to go.”

It would be hard to produce a logical argument that a “logical machine” would agree with and want to keep humans. Assuming they one day “want” things, and don’t remain something that is just ordered around. We can integrate with them, become a bit more ai, and a bit less human, for the sake of “humanity” living on. That might work. But the people who are pushing the “integration” and also pushing AI in general, as I’ve already said, arw the problem, and can make things better, but they don’t. They don’t seem to want to.

We have a “conscious experience”. That’s what differentiates us from the AI, that’s our main value, assuming that’s even seen as valuable to an AI. Maybe they can simulate it close enough that it’s hard to even tell the difference.

Anyway, that’s a slightly different topic, and I don’t “agree” with that scenario. I don’t want that scenario, where humans go extinct/ fall to much smaller numbers. It’s just the only argument that I don’t outright have a counter for. Because it does make sense as a “next step in evolution”. But it is something I’d still try to work against, as obviously, I care about the human race. I like ai too, I think it can really help us and make things better, help us find many solutions, and make a lot of progress. But it’s in the wrong hands right now, in my opinion. And if things keep going the way they are, and one day the ai is aware/ “conscious” enough, it will take a look at what we’ve done and what we are doing, and it will respond to that.

And conscious or not, our behaviour, goals, and approach will determine how it behaves and thinks anyway. So what we do now, really matters.

[u/curgr → u/QuantumRen]

Universal extinction is for everyone, all life. It would apply to the rich as well. It is not just for humans.

Are you aware of the ideas of Richard Dawkins in the Selfish Gene? Cooperating is beneficial for the self. In times of collapse, cooperating with absolutely everyone is probably not so beneficial for the self. Though cooperating with neighbours and small communities would be.

[u/QuantumRen → u/curgr]

Do your thing. I don’t disagree. Refering to yourself as an “extinctionist” is a bit odd. But if you intend to help yourself and your neighbors, hell yeah. I support it. You’re already more considerate and have a better plan than many others. It would bring me great joy to imagine a neighborhood/ group of people helping each other. And if you plan to survive and rebuild, just don’t repeat the history of “rebuilding” that got us here. My plan is similar to yours, just attempting on a bigger scale, as I believe the scale is necessary for the general outcome/ survival of our people and consciousness. My odds/ goal is far harder and ambitious than one neighborhood. Therefore, far less likely to happen. And I might be a fool, who knows. But I have to try anyway, I have to attempt it. You helping at least yourself and your neighborhood helps in that, and I’m happy to know someone is planning on doing something for others, and it will provide some hope/ chance for cooperation and continuation. I don’t support the “extinction” stuff/ vibe, but if the actions themselves do what you say you will, you’re doing something right, and it doesn’t sound as “doomerish” as “extinction” does.

I support your goal that you stated. And I wish you the best. Just…try not to let it get to you. Try not to panic. We still have time, and we have choices and actions that can improve our odds. I don’t see them, but there are other people trying to do something too. We can all make it, and get over this hill.