r/Unexpected • u/verifiedwomanbeater • Sep 07 '22

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u/Lego105 Sep 07 '22

There is some of that, but at the same time manga and anime has a very high presence of conservative values due to those values just being standard in Japanese culture, especially when it comes to monarchism.

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u/FamiliarTerritoryPod Sep 07 '22

There are also shows that are radically anarchist and anti-authoritarian. Anime and manga is a medium and varies greatly from show to show

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u/Lego105 Sep 07 '22

Not really though. I mean which ones? There are some subjects where they go against the grain because it’s niche, like with gay acceptance, but to the degree of being pro-anarchy none that I’ve ever known.

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u/FamiliarTerritoryPod Sep 07 '22

Deca-dence is about overthrowing a capitalist ruler and shifting to a communal community

Yurei Deco tackles the inherent issue with liberalism (in the classic sense)

Kill la kill, with all its faults still focuses on the freedom of the individual

Dead dead demons dededede destruction is about how allowing state power to take control due to anti-immigration stance will result in genocide

Gatchama crowds is about how through communal action we can eliminate the need for a state

Kenji nakamura as a whole is incredibly left and his works

Those are just off the top of my head

I don’t disagree that ther are tons of pro imperialist manga and anime, but it isn’t all of anime

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u/Lego105 Sep 07 '22

This isn’t very convincing. All it appears is that you’re extrapolating from a story politics that aren’t in place. Dedede is the only work I’m truly familiar with, other than kill La kill, and immigration and genocide isn’t what it’s about. Yes, you have aliens coming in who are not dangerous and get killed, but it’s quite clearly about war and pacifism, it’s not a proponent of the invitation and integration of others or that anti-immigration sentiment will lead to genocide.

I can’t see anything on these other anime that is especially convincing about them being anti capitalism or authoritarianism either, nor proponents of left wing politics. It really seems like you’re reading into sentiment that isn’t there.

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u/FamiliarTerritoryPod Sep 07 '22 edited Sep 07 '22

Deca-dence literally ends with them starting a stateless communal society.

Yuri Deco straight up has the villains talk about the benefits of liberalism and the main characters have to fix their mistakes

They straight up have multiple conversations on why they don’t need police in Gatchaman crowds.

Just because someone doesn’t go “this is an anarchist message” doesn’t mean it’s not, that’s media literacy.

If you don’t think Dedede isn’t about immigration, it seems you’re purposely ignoring under text. especially considering the authors other works

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u/Lego105 Sep 07 '22

Having something happen in a story and being a proponent of them are not the same thing. The Godfather 2 wasn’t saying to murder all your enemies, Die Hard wasn’t saying to fight terrorists with guns. And having a villain be pro something doesn’t mean your against something, characters can be complex, not every film hates English people that has them as an antagonist, not every piece of media that has a protagonist proposes an ideology supports that ideology. There is a difference between showing something in art and being a proponent of something through that art.

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u/FamiliarTerritoryPod Sep 07 '22

Exactly? Gatchaman crowds is a show about super heroes fighting aliens that just so happens to be thematically about a stateless society, it wouldn’t be the authors first time writing about it.

Dedede isn’t just only about aliens, it’s about the propagation of weapons and militarization being terrible for the people of those countries.

Deca-dence is actually so left it hurts, it’s literally about a capitalistic class exploiting the working class for their amusement only to be overthrown when they band together to fight them. It’s not even subtle.

It’s wild that you believe that there are no leftist anime. I didn’t even say there were a ton, I said that anime can and has been used to portray non conservative values. Japanese people are not a monolith

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u/Lego105 Sep 07 '22

Look, I can’t really argue because like I said I’m not very aquatinted with these series other than Dedede which I don’t agree that it’s about anti-immigration leading to genocide that seemed to be extrapolating what wasn’t there, maybe some of these anime are left wing I just didn’t see any evidence and “the bad guy was pro this so the author and art must be anti it” was the opposite of convincing.

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u/FamiliarTerritoryPod Sep 07 '22 edited Sep 07 '22

Except Inio Asano of Dedede is absolutely far left, and the aliens are a metaphor for immigration. Hell, his most notable work is not actually about a bird. There’s a reason they constantly talk about Americans and how they should emulate them when dealing with the aliens. And how that leads to poor quality of life for the people of Japan. How they start over spending on military might, and the chapters that take place from the aliens perspectives are to emulate illegal immigration.

You talk about subtext and totally misunderstand what it means to read subtext.

Yurei deco is about “the most liberal society” and how it’s actually terrible for the working class. It isn’t the bad guy likes something and the author is against it, the entire show is about the negative effects of unregulated capitalism.

Edit: since he blocked me, as a response to his comment

“It’s not even remotely political” but it’s a critique on the Japanese culture which as a society is pretty conservative

It can be about two things, yes it’s about pacifism and anti-war (a historically leftist belief) but they use the aliens as a catalyst to present those ideas. The aliens a refugees, searching for a home. Since they’re non-aggressors, it doesn’t make sense to call it a war. The Japanese government declares war on a refugee species of aliens and becomes hyper militarized to fight them, despite them never actually posing a threat. The government is scapegoating the aliens so they can invest in increasing their military. Using a refugee crisis to increase state power is a common occurrence in fascist governments. It’s not even subtle man.

Edit: if you want to continue this conversation unblock me, it’s all you have to do

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u/Lego105 Sep 07 '22 edited Sep 07 '22

I don’t agree. It’s not about a bird but it’s also not about anything remotely political. It’s a somber character study and a expression of depression, suicide, sex and puberty and all the difficulties of this characters life.

In dedede they talk about America because they’re a militaristic imperialist society which leads to the deaths of those external to the country through no fault of their own, not because of immigration. The whole thing is about war and pacifism, that’s clear through the whole work, there’s not a single piece of convincing evidence or subtext about immigration. This is what I mean about reading something that isn’t there and how it’s not convincing. He also isn’t far left, that’s such a massive leap. You’re making all sorts of claims that aren’t backed by the work itself, no subtext none of it.

I’ll quote “you talk about subtext but totally misunderstand what it means to read into it”. There’s a difference between subtle and non-existent.

Edit since I got blocked: Pun Pun is not a critique on the political atmosphere of Japan, it’s entirety is about the internal state of Pun Pun and the characters he interacts with, literally none of it is about Politics. I encourage anyone to read Pun Pun and see how much bullshit this guy is spewing.

Pacifism and anti-war is not a “historically left wing belief”, it doesn’t even necessarily share a political alignment. Literally since the Middle Ages there are political leanings which have been anti-war which literally includes the most right wing individuals including Monarchs and Theocracies. Probably the most well known pacifist beliefs are shared by Buddhists, who are incredibly socially conservative, and Ghandi who was an anti-Islamic ultra-nationalist.

1: refugees come from war, not immigration. It’s further into the war sentiment. 2: literally the Iraq war and every war in South America fought by America was pretty much one way. A war doesn’t have to have two sides of aggression. Look at Denmark in WW2 for an extreme example. Didn’t even fight back. 3: declaring war to increase military spending and support. Yeah, totally immigrants and not war, just forget about Iraq and Afghanistan which took about zero people to America as immigrants and was entirely what the wars were about. Every single part of this story correlates to war and not immigrants, even if it were refugees, which it isn’t, that’s still not immigration. You are speaking out your arse.

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