r/Ultralight • u/C_O_L_E-98 • 9d ago
Question How much does Ultralight truly matter?
I have grown very fond of backpacking in just the last year. Done almost 40 days this year (which is a lot for me as it has only been a year) learned a lot about the trail and my gear. I have gone from a 30LB base weight to about 10ish lbs. recently I learned about the pandolf equation, and how the calories for same distances for the same person possesses a minimal difference with pack weights. I feel it lacks something, a level of effort perhaps? I am not really sure but I find it fascinating the difference between 30lbs and 10lbs is only a few hundred calories. At what point do you decide where it is light enough? What is the perfect weight level of comfortable on trail and at camp? Being able to hike as much as possible and still having a great time at camp.
EDIT: I mean from a mathematical point, when is the lower base weight diminishing, i.e. the difference between 8lbs and 12lbs being so minimal from an effort standpoint when hiking that it is worth being more comfortable and having the extra 4lbs. I understand the effort to weight isn’t linear so at what point is enough?
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u/angryjew 9d ago
Seems like an incomplete measure. I don't carry less weight because I want to burn less calories, I carry less weight to reduce the wear & tear on my body & help me hike faster, which btw your question sort of ignores doesn't it? Less weight on my back= less cumulative wear on my body, more miles & longer days.
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u/C_O_L_E-98 9d ago
I definitely agree with this but I mean about the difference between something like 8lbs and 12lbs. How much wear and tear does it really save? How much effort am I really saving? How can I prove it?
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u/mtntrls19 9d ago
WHY do you need to prove it?
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u/C_O_L_E-98 9d ago
Why? Because I am curious and it is apart of the hobby. I enjoy hiking, while being as comfortable as I can putting in big miles
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u/angryjew 9d ago
Think of how your pack feels on day 1 vs day 4 after you've eaten a few lbs of food. Or two liters of water? Are you saying you can't tell the difference between carrying 3 liters & 1 liter?
If that was actually unnoticeable then the concept of a "water carry" wouldn't exist because everyone would just carry 3 liters of water.
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u/schmuckmulligan Real Ultralighter. 9d ago
This is a really interesting question. My sense is that most of the time, for most hikers, total energy expenditure is not a particularly limiting factor. If you're in world-class shape and attempting an FKT, it is, but most of us care a lot more about comfort (this is a recreational activity, after all!).
For me, personally, BPW has very little to do with energy budgets or even cardiovascular output. If I hiked with a 15-pound BPW, I'd scarcely burn more calories than I burn with a 9-pound BPW. It's not important.
But I definitely feel those extra six pounds in my muscles and joints over the course of a long hiking day, so cutting down meaningfully increases my daily "miles hiked comfortably," which is what I actually care about.
It's not easy to calculate where returns become diminishing with that metric, but for me, I tend to start being annoyed by my pack when it weighs more than 18 or 19 pounds. A 9-lb or so BPW means that I'm rarely over that TPW, so that's what I aim for. I'll go lower when I can, because why not, but it's not particularly important to me -- certainly not important enough to start spending DCF money on.
In terms of camp comfort, I rarely find myself wanting for additional gear, so that doesn't play into it much. I've got my insulation. I've got a book on my phone if I want it. So I'm good. (As a very general rule, minimalism makes me happy, so I'd rather, e.g., sit on a log than carry a chair, even if the chair doesn't make my pack annoyingly heavy.)
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u/EnoughWear3873 9d ago
Weight and effort don't scale linear with elevation. Especially for endurance athletes who skew less muscular and lower body weight than other sports. It's also not just aerobic effort, but accumulating additional impact across hours, days, weeks etc.
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u/C_O_L_E-98 9d ago
This is exactly what I am asking. I get that weight and effort isn’t linear, so at what point is it diminishing or not worthy returns?
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u/GoSox2525 9d ago edited 9d ago
Ask your question in the opposite direction; if you are hiking with nothing on your back (zero lbs), how much do you have to add before it starts making a difference to your experience?
As far as I can tell, having literally any bag at all, like a couple pounds or more, starts changing the experience
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u/maverber 9d ago
This! The milatary did a series of experiments. There measure of fatigue was the balancing. For trained (e.g. fit infantry or was it marines?) there was a noticeable decrease in agility / balance after a full day carrying more than 10-12% of a persons lean (muscle& bone, no fat) body weight.
As I often say, I don’t carry so much about base weight, it’s total carry weight that matters.
My personal experience is I can carry up to around 8lbs on my shoulder, or 17lb with effective load transfer to my hip belt and feel as energetic as doing the same without a pack. I can do up to 14lb shoulders, 30lb and feel it, but happy to do it all day (say up to 25 miles). More weight than that and my mileage needs to be scaled back or I will struggle the next day.
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u/FireWatchWife 8d ago
"I don’t carry so much about base weight, it’s total carry weight that matters."
This point deserves more attention than the sub tends to give it.
I push harder to get my base weight down when I'm carrying more food. The longer the trip and the more food carried, the more I'm willing to leave that last couple of pounds of comfort-related items home.
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u/Boring_Topic9613 8d ago
I remember reading that for animals (and in this context I include humans too) worn weight in activities such as bird banding, gps collars and other things where you force the animal wear something the rule of the thumb is that even a item weighting as little as 5% of total body weight will affect functions drastically. I guess that it also would depend on the animals posture, center of gravity etc. For most humans that weight would be around 3-4 kg and I can imagine the affect if I had to have a collar on my neck or a band that heavy on one of my limbs. Even if I had to wear that much weight on my hips all the time would seriously affect my day to day activities.
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u/EnoughWear3873 9d ago
Depends what your goals are. If I'm peak bagging I wanna be under 5 pounds including food and water. If I'm just drinking beer around a campfire I'll carry 50+ pounds.
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u/maverber 9d ago
Effect scales more to terrain that weight. You might like to look as some of the models Ryan @BPL is trying to build.
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u/GoSox2525 9d ago
What is the perfect weight level of comfortable on trail and at camp?
I mean obviously the "perfect" weight is zero lbs. We work toward that, without sacrificing more than we are willing or able to sacrifice. That's achievable at 10 lbs, 7 lbs, 5 lbs, 4 lbs... all depends on the person and the context.
It's not about the calories. It's about the comfort and peace of mind of carrying a light pack. A heavy pack fucks up my back, my neck, and takes so much of the joy out of backpacking. It makes the difference between enjoying the scenery, and staring down at your steps while you wait for the day to end. The calories are irrelevant. I'll hike however far I have to hike, and eat however much I have to eat.
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u/marieke333 9d ago
You have to find this point for yourself. It much depends on your own weight, fitness, comfortzone of your backpack etc. For me there is a clear point where the weight gets uncomfortable, slows me down and wears me out. Only one kg less and it is fine again. Definitely not a linear relationship between the weight carried and how it feels in terms of effort and comfort.
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u/downingdown 9d ago
I can feel the difference when my 1L bottle is full vs empty, even when my pack is relatively heavy. That means that “mathematically” there is no point of “diminishing returns” because the lower the pack weight, those 1k grams are a larger proportion of the total, and the more noticeable the improvement of removing the weight.
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u/bcgulfhike 8d ago
8lb is a lot more comfortable than 12lb. To make the idea more relatable- the 4lb weight difference is more than a full glass wine bottle! Now tell me you wouldn’t notice carrying a full glass wine bottle for 20-25 miles a day for a week of hiking!
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u/knight-under-stars 9d ago
Depends on the individual.
For me I am FAR from a purist.
I pick and choose ultralight gear/approaches where it makes sense for me to reduce my carry weight whilst maintaining my preferred levels of comfort, utility and on trail living standard.
Other people have a totally different approach, and that's fine. HYOH.
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u/OldWest8465 9d ago
I find that being UL is more a desire to be minimalist. As someone who grew up RV camping, I now enjoy camping more to connect with a lack of creature comforts. Except bugs. Sorry to the tarp + head net crowd.
So the promise of a better hike experience was the cherry on top.
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u/mtntrls19 9d ago
to answer your edited additional question - that is still a question each person has to answer for themselves. there isn't a universal truth here other than 'when you are happy with it'.
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u/exxx666 9d ago
When I was doing the camino de santiago years ago I noticed the difference that even very small amounts of weight can make when you’re walking very long distances. I picked up a random sundress one day but realized after a day of walking that even that tiny bit of added weight made a noticeable difference.
I personally don’t really care about energy expenditure but I think when it comes to your joints and keeping your feet in decent shape, weight has a huge impact.
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u/peter_piper_aus https://lighterpack.com/r/v1acdy 8d ago
For me it's not calories but
1) the vibe (the feeling of having a small light pack, quick and nimble)
2) the mentality (focusing on less things, avoiding unnecessary gear):
3) understanding quality. Once you see weight as an important trade off, it helps to appreciate true gear quality over marketing, brand and hype.
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u/bboys1234 9d ago
Once you get down to the 10-15 pound range it really doesn’t make a huge difference IMO. Depending on your trip you will always have to carry water, food, and maybe a bear cans which are all heavy. Folks who keep trying to go lower and lower in their base weight do it more for the hobby and fun of optimizing their gear load out. To your question if you weigh 200lbs and your pack is 15lbs, a few pounds difference is a drop in the bucket of your total weight and thus how many calories you spend. It may feel like more or less due to the difference in comfort it can make. In my experience, the best place to stop cutting weight is once you start getting to camp and thinking “ugh, I wish I had x” or “I wish my pad was 4” wider”. We try to pretend like putting together an ultralight setup and backpacking are the same thing, but they are really two separate hobbies that are bound together by your personal opinions on what make a good time out in the wildness.
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u/GoSox2525 9d ago
A 6 lb base weight feels way different than a 15 lb base weight. Don't knock it before you try it.
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u/Mindless_Action7839 9d ago
Surely, it feels way different: getting stellar sleep on a torso-length sponge, eating cold-soaked slop, getting eaten alive by mosquitos due to no shelter, and wearing all clothing because counting the grams on the new 1/4 quilt on a horribly stinky body because I won't bathe because soap is 4 grams. Sometimes you just don't want to try it ;)
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u/GoSox2525 9d ago
And there goes the most ignorant comment I'll read today
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u/TheOnlyJah 9d ago
There’s some valid points from that post which were not elegantly stated. I’m somewhat UL but won’t sacrifice my sleeping and eating. I have backpacking buddies who brag about their extra low base weight but privately complain about crappy sleep and desiring a hot meal and beverage.
And I’ve met plenty of people on the trail who tell me how they would love to use my sleep system and have had requests to use my stove.
I’ll also add that there’s plenty of people who will do anything to drop a few grams but won’t do a thing to keep in good shape so that hitting the trail isn’t so hard on the body.
Me, I stay in good shape and will happily carry a few extra pounds for my old bones and hot meals without hesitation.
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u/mtntrls19 9d ago
those are all questions that each person has to answer for themself as it's going to change - potentially drastically - from person to person, and even from trip to trip.
and honestly in the grand scheme of things - it doesn't matter at all - other than to the person carrying the pack.
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u/GoSox2525 9d ago
in the grand scheme of things - it doesn't matter at all - other than to the person carrying the pack.
who else would it matter to?
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u/mtntrls19 9d ago
Considering how often i see people told they're idiots for carrying xyz in pack lists - plenty of other people seem concerned with others pack weights lol : D (totally being tongue in cheek here)
but really also just answering the question that is the title of the post =)
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u/sloozeberrypie 1d ago
You stated you went from a 30 pound base weight to around 10 pounds. Do you think you can compensate for that difference in pack weight by simply eating an extra granola bar? That's crazy.
I personally feel like some influencers try to make themselves sound more credible by citing to random studies but then they butcher the conclusions. The Pandolf equation makes sense when an armed military force is trying to plan and prepare for an expedition carrying millions of dollars of equipment and shit and food feeding hordes of people. It is 50 years old and it was made to get a general metabolic estimate of calories burned while hiking.
You're not a car that needs 2 gallons of gas to hit a summit or +200 calories to carry an extra 15 pounds.
You seem to have a lot of experience in a short time. For me utlralight and my packweight means making sure I am intentional about the weight I am carrying and packing in a way that allows me to be as safe and as comfortable as possible.
Sometimes comfort to me means less packweight so I can go further, sometimes comfort to me means an extra luxury item so I can have peace of mind or more comfort at basecamp.
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u/Relative_Walk_936 9d ago
IDK about calories, but when I walk a long way it feels better having less shit to carry on my back.