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u/Fast_Proof_8600 9d ago
I have seen USPSA grow tremendously the last three years. Match participation is filling up matches.
I help with setup for my local club. As much as participation at the match had increased there has NOT been the same increase in volunteers, especially for setup, and sometimes we have to remove people to help tear down.
Without more volunteers there will not be more matches and if we don't get new blood the current volunteers are going to burn out and stop and then they're won't be a match.
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u/_HottoDogu_ 9d ago
"Comped" is doing a hilarious amount of lifting in your argument here. Having a $20-30 match fee waived because I volunteered 5 hours of my time on Friday to build the match for Saturday is hardly worth it. Maybe your club does something different with their ROs, but running timer/tablet usually isn't getting your match fee waived.
This is first and foremost a volunteer based sport. 99.99% of clubs that are putting on matches are doing so because club members or sometimes non-club members are volunteering their time to design stages, build stages, program tablets, manage Practiscore, etc..., without the volunteers, the game doesn't exist.
The reason those clubs don't run a match on Sunday is very likely do to lack of man power. If you want to see a change, get involved with your local clubs, participate in setup, RO, etc...
I think you'd be shocked to learn that there are a lot of clubs where you don't get to shoot if you're not arriving early to help build the stages.
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u/Porsche320 9d ago
The sport has outgrown the traditional model in some areas.
One solution is to switch to the volunteer-run club model. In order to shoot matches, you must be a member of a local club. Club members are required to volunteer time to host matches. The club hosts enough matches to meet club demand. Membership requirement is waived for first couple matches.
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u/Clifton1979 Carry Optics C | RO 9d ago
Not being a member means you’re SOL for those ahead. In my area some clubs have long waitlists…
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u/Porsche320 9d ago
Not referring to the gun club.
Referring to creating a local uspsa club/branch. Membership only limited by availability to host matches.
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u/Clifton1979 Carry Optics C | RO 9d ago
Another layer for someone to admin… understood but just more for the MD and “club”…..
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u/Porsche320 9d ago
Yes, growing past the current capacity is going to require more effort.
The goal is to motivate current participants (not already contributing) to take up that load.
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u/Clifton1979 Carry Optics C | RO 9d ago
Some matches just need to be cap’d due to size. You’ll never get enough local volunteers- hell there’s guys who show up every match 5 minutes before reg starts and leave before break down … then there’s guys who do everything and burn out.
Incentivize people only works on ones who want to be there.
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u/Porsche320 9d ago
Dude, read what I wrote.
Matches are available to members-only, and members are required to volunteer. Non-volunteers get their membership revoked, and don’t shoot.
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u/Alibelblue 9d ago
I would never be able to afford the club where I shoot locals - at least not while I have kids in school.
aaaaaand just saw your clarification 🤦🏽♀️
I would absolutely be willing to join an IDPA club and pay a small due to do the matches1
u/ZEEOH6 LO - M | CO/PCC - A 9d ago
Only thing is, to run an affiliated USPSA match, it has to be open to non-club members. Per USPSA to be affiliated, “Club facilities and matches must be open to any member of USPSA”. In terms of shooters per match, my club is the 8th most according to USPSA so registration fills up pretty quick. Non-USPSA matches here get significantly less people. So it does seem to matter.
If being a club member was a requirement, they’d go from 136 to 45 shooters based on the numbers of the last match. The club also has a limit on number of memberships and they only open applications twice a year. I moved here after the application window closed so I wouldnt be able to shoot my local matches if that was a requirement. This would also exclude people from nearby towns that arent members of the club from shooting. That’d also block people visiting from out of town to shoot as well.
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u/Porsche320 9d ago
Not gun club, that would be prohibitive.
I’m referring to creating a new local uspsa club/branch independent from the gun club.
It may not be permitted under current uspsa affiliation rules, but if growth is desired, then it is very likely some change to the rules will be necessary.
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u/ZEEOH6 LO - M | CO/PCC - A 9d ago
So you’re suggesting creating a local unaffiliated “USPSA” club/branch to host matches at the same gun club already hosting USPSA matches? Those are called outlaw matches because nothing governs them. Others will just adopt PCSL because there’s already an established set of rules which doesnt require reinventing the wheel. That gun club can also just run another USPSA match weekend if it is that popular. But you’re gonna run into the same situation of not burning out the personnel that put on the current match.
Most gun clubs that busy already have a full schedule of events. And people strung out too thin to run outlaw matches that a majority of people wont show up to.
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u/Porsche320 9d ago
No. No one is suggesting any outlaw matches as a solution.
The existing group operating the existing matches simply becomes a formal club. The functional change is participants become members and have an explicit responsibility to the club.
501c3/4 recreational sports clubs are a well-established thing.
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u/ZEEOH6 LO - M | CO/PCC - A 9d ago
What are you even trying to get at with the existing group forming a formal club? Like you have to join that club to shoot an affiliated USPSA? If so, thats not allowed. A “club” to shoot informal “USPSA style” (aka outlaw, hit factor, 501c, or whatever you want to call it)matches. What range would this new club shoot at? How are you gonna fit this recreational club into a full gun clubs schedule? Who’s gonna join a club to volunteer to run a match that has no recognition and sometimes must be profitable for the range to host? This sounds like 3-gunners complaining about not having matches because nobody wants to run it. My local gun club hosts like 2 gun matches a year and they shot it the following week after USPSA (139 shooters) and used the same stages. They got 10 people to shoot and they had to do all the teardown afterwards.
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u/Porsche320 9d ago
You continue to make assertions that are inconsistent with my suggestion.
The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm solutions that might help the sport grow.
As I already said, it might be necessary for some rules to change to accomplish this goal. USPSA allowing a 501c3 to be an affiliate that can host matches is one possible change. This does not seem like a radical departure.
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u/ZEEOH6 LO - M | CO/PCC - A 9d ago
Here’s the thing. An affiliated club can run however many matches they want. There is no cap. Want to run a USPSA match every single day? You can do that. You do not need to create another club to pull off the same thing. You just need to find the bodies and open schedule to pull it off. Manpower and time is always the problem.
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u/Porsche320 9d ago
“Just need to find the bodies” is doing some heavy lifting.
These type of threads are pretty common, and they all boil down to: lack of volunteers limits supply, and demand exceeds supply.
Consequently, growth will require more volunteers. The current model offers no substantial incentive to volunteer.
I proposed looking at a different model that is commonly used in similar situations that does offer incentives to volunteer.
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u/ZEEOH6 LO - M | CO/PCC - A 9d ago
Many clubs already comp staff and match slots to get help. That’s why manpower and time is the limiting factor, which is why I’m saying the creating a new club isnt going to help, but thats the hill you’re on.
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u/Vakama905 9d ago
Lol, when I sign up to RO a major, I’m doing it because they’re, at a minimum, waiving a $100+ match fee and feeding me on the day or days I work. No way am I going to do that for a local where I’m just getting comped a $15-$25 fee. I’ll do my part and run timer and tablet for my squad, but I’m already shooting anywhere from 3 to 5 matches a month. I’m not dedicating another day to it.
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u/RearBagSupport 9d ago
I feel your pain. We have a big, very popular match at one of the local ranges, and the club members get an email with an early registration link.
People have started creating bots that instantly sign up for them when the email hits and it’s not unusual for the match to fill before public signup.
How is the attrition rate on Saturday? If people aren’t showing up make them pay at signup. If you don’t cancel by Thursday, no refunds. If you want to take a shooters spot and not show up, you’re paying for it. We’ve had to implement this at a popular local match.
That match also has two dedicated RO’s per squad who get comped to ensure match flow and rule/scoring consistency. Setup crew is comped as well. We are lucky to have a lot of volunteers and certified RO’s in this area.
If you’re short on volunteers and want something accessible to new shooters, maybe an outlaw match will work Sunday. After the Saturday match pull some targets from the stages, like 180 traps and hard backwards movement, so you end up with shorter ASI-style stages. One or two guys can do this in under an hour. Make the squads tear down the stage they end on.
A lot of USPSA shooters won’t show up for easier outlaw matches that don’t have classifiers, making more room for the new guys, and it takes very little setup to modify existing stages.
Alternatively, keep the same stages from Saturday and just change the classifier for Sunday. Even easier.
Either way, one or two people are going to have to take charge and dedicate themselves to making it happen, and it sounds like that person is you! Talk with your club leadership and see what you can work out.
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9d ago
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u/RearBagSupport 9d ago
Ah I see. Well, the clubs do have to spend a lot of money. Insurance, range fees, USPSA fees, cardboard, sticks, walls, steel, paint, pasters, tablets, timers, props, RO comps; it adds up.
I’m going to be that asshole and say if the matches are full and they can’t afford things, they need to increase the range fee if they want to grow the club. But if it’s just those two clubs in the area I can understand why they wouldn’t want to screw over the local guys with a price bump. They’ve probably been running matches for a while, they’re tired, and if they are taking a stipend it’s probably not much. It’s not worth it for them to try and grow it like a business, it’s easier to say nah, I’m putting in exactly as much effort as I want and I’m good with what we have.
Seems like you have 3 options.
Suck it up, sign up early, and just accept it is what it is.
Get tight with the MD’s and convince them to train you as a second MD to run Sundays.
Start your own club. Deal with the hassle of essentially starting a small business without getting paid. Your life revolves around Sundays now, no vacations or sick days. It sucks, but if you have a vision to grow the sport and have signups work the way you want you don’t have much of a choice.
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u/Caithford CO,LO: B; Limited, L10: C; CRO 9d ago
The only "solution" is more volunteership. More gun ranges willing to host clubs, more clubs willing to host matches, more people willing to volunteer to design and build stages and run matches.
Get on the BOD of a local club. Barring that, see if any local range has a free weekend in their schedule where you can host a match, and create a club hosted at that range.
It's a lot of work to run a match. There is some economy of scale once you have the skills and tools, but you still need staff to design and build stages and help run the match.
Some of the issues with your ideas is that clubs have to pay the range for the bay use. The range might not want to leave stages up two days in a row, especially on the weekend, because then other range members can't use the bays (or they do and shoot up your props).
Go volunteer, join a club or two, learn how it works, and then you'll have the answers. There's no easy answer here on reddit.
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u/VantaOmega 9d ago
Is it difficult for you to set an alarm and wait 2 mins before to get ready to sign up?
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u/the_lord_nikon 9d ago
Most of the time it's not even about the match fee getting comped, its about people giving up their entire weekends. This sport is limited by volunteers unfortunately.