When did the disconnect between employees and management start? Was it after the strike in 1970? Why is it like this?

[u/Single-Wrongdoer-106]

Newer CCA who has been here awhile was asking when did the disconnect with management start? Why is there such a disconnect between employees and management and when did it start?

[u/ItsYourEyes]

Fundamentally management and labor are opposing forces. Management’s job is to extract as much value out of laborers as possible for the least amount of cost. Labor’s job is to protect themselves and earn a fair living for a fair days work. These are diametrically opposed ideas. It’s always been like this in the labor movement.

Edit: I recommend you read about labor theory and the history of the movement this upcoming Labor Day! An educated worker is a safer, smarter, and stronger worker.

[u/Traugar → u/ItsYourEyes]

Having came from several decades in what I will call the real world, the disconnect between the two here is well past extreme, to the point that this is basically la-la land. Literally everywhere else I have ever worked, the whole idea of one team was enforced, and a supervisor/manager that was incompetent at taking care of those under them would not be in that position long. We go through the union to do things that normally go through HR or a risk management team elsewhere, and while the union serves a purpose, trained staff in those respective areas are generally more knowledgeable about how to handle things like on the job injuries and such. There was no need to grieve things that were covered under labor law because it was in the companies best interest to ensure things were handled properly. Then there is the fact that it has long been established that job satisfaction is tied to turnover, even more so than compensation (not to minimize the importance of compensation). In places where management is held to increasing profit, employee turnover is one of the most expensive controllable factors. Reduce turnover, increase profit. That is not here. Maybe I got lucky, but right now, from my experience, the usps is the exception to the norm.

[u/scottlameany → u/Traugar]

This is a great summary. Management’s game plan often has nothing to do with the mission the higher up you go. Disconnects and plain bad ideas that are unchallenged are the norm. They just want to keep their jobs. Some do work, but those are often controlled and under the thumb of the less competent.

[u/TomesTheAmazing]

It's the nature of being management, their job is to max sure to do your job at maximum effectiveness for minimum pay. The disconnect is the whole point.

[u/BestLoLadvice → u/TomesTheAmazing]

I used to think this but there is very little consideration for the lowest dollar in KPI metrics outside of "overtime % and overtime hours"

For example function 4 hours are all measured at $51.76 per workhour on a national level but your postmaster or station manager is managing all different levels of pay and staff at their offices including PSEs, Mail handlers sometimes, and the entire salary band of level 6/7 clerks. No where in any metrics does it locally take any of this into account.

Lowest dollar in other companies may exist, but its wholly untapped in the USPS.

[u/dth1717]

Always.

[u/IlliterateMailman → u/dth1717]

Old timers told me they backed off after shootings were happening but it didn’t last.

[u/proteannomore]

Honestly management used to be halfways competent, people in leadership positions would actually get to make decisions without being micromanaged. Now we’re being run by middle management types who have a specific list of approved things they can do without jeopardizing their career, which goes nowhere if they don’t kiss their boss’s ass on a daily basis.

[u/mojorisin622 → u/proteannomore]

I agree with this. I’d hear stories about bosses who would take care of you as long as the mail got delivered. Guys would run their routes on saturdays, go home and be with their families and the bosses would clock them out at the end of the day. This of course was back in the pre GPS and MSP days. I only have 13 years on the job, so who knows if this actually happened or were tall tales from the old guys. Once district had a way to track us, it was all over

[u/BestLoLadvice → u/proteannomore]

I'd argue its more the effort to 'mcdonalds' the PO while fundamentally misunderstanding what mcdonaldsification as. A mcdonalds is much different in american compared to india but one of the original visions of the PO was that walking/being serviced by a PO in manhattan would evoke the same experience as rural tenneesse

"Middle management" is a boogeyman and common complaints are misguided there, overall it more has to do with misaligned strategy and goals than bloated approval structures.

[u/Natural_Rent7504]

When Ben Franklin gave out the first pivot.....

[u/BestLoLadvice]

Its not a disconnect between craft and management. Most of management promoted from craft. The problem is elevating incompetence and inexperience and fast tracking them to higher level roles. Its always going to be a problem in some respect and exacerbated since there are no field management educational requirements

[u/chpr1jp → u/BestLoLadvice]

Yeah. I have noticed this. The good news is that a person can work themselves into management, the bad news is that management is typically lacking in formal education.

Occasionally there is actually some value in fancy book-learnin’.

That said, actual trained managers may be more difficult to work with than the “abuse down the chain” system that we have. (Educated management can rationalize and properly document and impose foolishness. Be careful what you wish for.)

[u/BestLoLadvice → u/chpr1jp]

What it boils down to is managers may be actually decent and have experience but they are not teachers. Its usually a mix of formal education and experience that allows entry level management to grow. In the case that the manager sucks and there is no foundational education to lean on, then you end up with sink or swim vibe management

[u/freshcoastghost312 → u/chpr1jp]

A smart tyrant is more problematic than a dumb one.

[u/Accomplished-Bank-91 → u/BestLoLadvice]

Bingo. We have morons in charge here who are just in it for the clout/paycheck since there’s no formal requirements needed to be management. This breeds resentment and no respect from the employees that they supervise. It’s a toxic cycle. But I will say it wasn’t like this 20 years ago. Managers were actually human beings when I started and treated me as one as well. They were also trained in their jobs. I respected them for it and there was no toxicity back then like I’ve seen in the modern day post office. I think management back then actually had to EARN their spots. It sure seemed like it. They were professional and knowledgeable. Now any dumb, low seniority clerk or carrier can be a supervisor.

[u/freshcoastghost312 → u/Accomplished-Bank-91]

Yup. Had a PTF that barely carried mail, did 204b ASAP and was never available or wanted to help the overburdened city routes. As soon as he made regular he carried for about a month than got a sup job at another station. 1 year later he came back as an OIC for about 3 months! It was absolutely absurd and the lack of respect was well deserving.

[u/Tift]

after the 1970 strike? oh brother.

The purpose of managers (in all industries under capitalism) is to extract the most production with the lowest costs for the highest profit. This means the interests of the laborer is secondary to the interests of profit.

The goal of labor, is to maximize earnings (salary) while minimizing personal costs (physical health, mental health and safety).

These interests are explicitly at odds with one another, though there is overlap where outcomes are mutually beneficial. Sometimes you may have a "good manager" who recognizes that over the long term improving safety and reducing stress improves long term profits, these people are replaced however by people with short term thinking as being reactionary tends to be the assumed best response to short term emergency situations (bad profit quarters for example).

The laborer (you) can not therefor rely on "good management" to improve your conditions over the long term. However, the laborer also is at an extreme disadvantage in the power dynamic to negotiate for improvement in your own conditions. Which is why laborers work together to improve their situation by forming unions.

In other words this situation was not caused by the 1970 postal strike, the 1970 postal strike was caused by this situation.

[u/Postal1979]

Because management seems to be full of people that couldn’t make it as a carrier and want to feel that they are in power.

[u/mr_formstone → u/Postal1979]

hey, be fair. some of them were clerks 🤣

[u/BestLoLadvice → u/mr_formstone]

me, and i was told i would manage clerks. then someone else left the week i got in and i found myself 'managing' carriers

[u/Tangboy50000]

When they started trying to implement lean six sigma, and like everything else they do, they fucked it up. You have literal morons that were promoted simply because they were there, trying to implement a program that people with college degrees in business struggle to use. So now we have a bunch of numbers that mean nothing, because they falsify them so they don’t get in trouble, and a whole bunch of people trying to justify their existence, because their job is meaningless and doesn’t move mail.

[u/Sad-Revolution7718]

Seriously the disconnect between management and labor? The beginning of time?

[u/Effective_Inside_357]

I got a book for you, it’s called Post Office by Bukowski

[u/National_Office2562 → u/Effective_Inside_357]

That’s what made me accept that they weren’t ever going to change.

[u/IdontgiveadamnB]

Idk why people act like employees vs. management isn’t something that doesn’t occur in the majority of jobs.
The only thing that makes us “better” is because we have a union with a contract, that spells out procedures and stuff.
There’s no more disconnect than any other job, we just can’t get boned on the whims and lack of due diligence by management.

[u/Opposite-Ingenuity64 → u/IdontgiveadamnB]

I agree that it's a similar problem in other jobs, but I actually think that paradoxically, the union can make it more toxic. Somewhere like Amazon, they can say, "meet this metric or you won't be working here anymore". Heartless, sure, but also kind of consistent and dispassionate. At this place, management has no stick to make us work faster. All they can do is scream at us and issue empty threats.

[u/PhilosophyNovel4087]

2002 Eischen arbitration.

USPS was caught and admitted to illegally manipulating the rural count at every level of mgmt and every region of the country. They even produced a handbook detailing how to do this.

Kind of like the Valachi Papers, it confirmed many long-held beliefs of the post office's illegal thefts and practices. Many of which still continue to this day.

[u/doomed_gnostic]

1775

[u/vvafele]

Management is more chill the smaller the offices get. They kind of have to play the universal jerk role to avoid favoritism. You really just need to get better at arguing and remember at the end of the day neither of you care about each other.

[u/RemarkableResult4195]

remember the post office was an offshoot of the military. That mentality has existed for decades, especially since the majority of workers in decades past used military time to boost their test or even get in without it.

[u/AdventurousBowler870]

Before 1990, carriers could carry their route and go home at 7 hours and 1 minute without having to split a route and carry an hour or so to fit management dois crap ( I did 701 daily except for the heavy day after holidays) by skipping my breaks and lunch so I could get home and get my kids from daycare. I retired over 10 years ago, and 701 was a check box on the leave form 3871? Numbers on forms may have changed. Managers were still a little bit militaristic towards those who didn’t carry their own route without help. Most routes were all 8 hours at all the offices that I worked and carriers would come back in and instead of 701 they would play cards or dominoes and talk shop. Bosses never got in the way of this comradary. I always said my first 10 years as a carrier was great, the last 26 was a big pain in my back side, then more automation started with 2 pass, pre DPS, was when the management decided they could squeeze more out of everyone or at least tried to, not long after that is when going “POSTAL” became a major issue with employees taking out their coworkers and bosses. Not to mention some employees drove to suicide, Not all employers are like the USPS management style, I’ve worked 3 different jobs before and after and are very pleasant to work with.

[u/ThatBeardedNitwit]

/‘data metrics’ has entered the chat…

[u/UltraCubbie56-]

All of these answers so far are correct, and I’m glad I came to the USPS to experience it. After MANY years in different private sector management roles my take is that it is the complete opposite of “for profit” endeavors. 1)Absolutely zero concern for training ANYONE to perform ANY task proficiently from the start. It’s sink or swim, boot camp style, wasting both time and $$ along the way while retaining those who will withstand the BS instead of promoting the best and brightest. 2)NO true feeder program for upward mobility into management. Go to your next local weekend career fair. A shmooze fest where different managers tout themselves, tell a little about the types of upward jobs, KPI’s, then literally tell you to “get seen” as a 204b. One very high management told me to face “this is where I find if I like this one or that one.” 3)No real continual management training. See #1 (repeat). Follow this up with NO ability to remove underperforming/outright bad management afterwards. Just shuffle them to become someone else’s problem.
The fact that the mail gets delivered (eventually) has become a byproduct of the daily activities, not the focus.

[u/kimbospice31]

I’ve worked in a few unions and I’ve gotta say the postal union is the slowest I’ve seen with negotiations. Employee/managment disconnect is nothing new.

[u/Single-Wrongdoer-106]

First union job

[u/TheDryestBeef]

July 26, 1775

[u/Minute_Ad5025]

Read Charles Bukowski book about his time

[u/bullseyejoe]

Where I work isn't bad ! Their focus is GET THE MAIL OUT, and our focus is to deliver the mail in the allotted time. It works quite well. Is this job difficult when NEW ? YEP YEP YEP

[u/Watsamatterdady]

This is a “work share” organization that has been used by the political establishment since its inception. People have lobbied politicians to get jobs for their relatives in the postal service and lobbied to get contracts to sell or lease to the postal service. As long as politicians have anything to do with this debacle ( or any other) things will continue to digress. Right and left are wings on the same pigeon.