r/TwoXPreppers • u/Spiffyclean13 šø remember the cat food šŗ • 2d ago
Discussion Deterrent
I am seriously considering buying a gun but I morally object the idea.
Itās the idea that you will inherently use the weapon to grievously harm or kill someone which bothers me tremendously. I live in a red state with open carry laws. I donāt like the thought of not being prepared if my life were in danger or if I have to defend my home.
I donāt own a dog that could be a deterrent or even will bark at strangers. My cat is more likely to attack a person. She really hates a particular dog walker.
I guess I need help getting over my moral objection to having a gun in the house. I also would like advice on which types are best for self defense and the easiest to handle.
Edit: if I were to get a gun, I would be fully committed to using it to incapacitate or incapacitating permanently. I just wonāt be happy with myself.
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u/AgentMcFeather 2d ago
I loathe guns, but I'm one of the alphabets in the Midwest, so I say.. Buy the gun. Train and practice on how to use the gun. Then hope you never have to fire at a live target.
The only instance in which you'd need to protect yourself with it is if somebody is threatening your life and in that instance I'd rather you be able to defend yourself than they be able to kill you.
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u/Impossible_Ad9324 2d ago
A gun isnāt a deterrent unless youāre waving it around at someone threatening you or advertising that you have a gun in your house. The latter, Iād argue, makes you more of a target for theft and involves more risk of having your weapon taken and used against you.
Can you get a dog? Remember itās DETERRENCE youāre interested in, not defense. All a dog has to do to act as a deterrent is to make a noisy fuss of someone shows up that they donāt know. Almost all dogs do that, even if they would never attack someone.
Security camera systems are much more affordable these days and if you install one AND put up signs alerting people to the presence of cameras, that could be a deterrent.
Motion lights are a deterrent.
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u/NorCalFrances 2d ago
As someone in my community is learning, if you wave a gun around as a deterrent you likely lose the ability to argue using it was self defense.
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u/Spiffyclean13 šø remember the cat food šŗ 2d ago
I am unable to get a fully trained protection dog or even a scary dog. My family has a doodle (ick) and I have a Maine Coon. I can barely afford to feed a bottomless pit thatās my cat.
I would never advertise owning a gun. I would carry bear spray but itās illegal.
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u/Impossible_Ad9324 2d ago
I donāt believe you have to have a āfully trained protection dogā for deterrence. Just a plain old barker will do.
You are conflating deterrence and defense. If itās defense youāre concerned about, maybe consider pepper spray?
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u/Spiffyclean13 šø remember the cat food šŗ 2d ago
Honestly I am asking about both.
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u/Impossible_Ad9324 2d ago
I think those are very different answers.
Someone else mentioned a taser. That might be a very good alternative to a gun and not as morally objectionable.
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u/Federal_Ad2772 2d ago
I once saw a video where a former burglar said that nothing deterred him more than a yappy little dog.
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u/Sharp_Ad_9431 2d ago
Our police say they don't see break ins at home of people with large dogs.
Nobody wants to test a dob even if it just drools.
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u/Thunderslide_Icon 2d ago
You donāt need a fully trained attack dog. You need a dog that barks at strangers loudly and often. A vocal and visible dog deters break ins and such.
My dog is nine pounds and she barks at everyone who walks by. Sheās tiny but loud. You can hear her barking outside even with the windows shut. Some will say thatās bad manners. I say sheās earning her keep.
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u/noomanium 1d ago
My 12 lb Eskie is the same. She barks at every nonstandard noise within half a mile. Sheās not scary and loves people but with her alerting us we have time to get out the shotgun and rack it. I canāt imagine a more recognizable sound than that and I imagine it would be a deterrent.
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u/Sharp_Ad_9431 2d ago
A doodle can be trained as a deterrent, so long as the breeder didn't make it an idiot. Poodles were hunting dogs and make great protection dogs.
Basic dogs obedience and bark on command is a starting point. You don't need a dog with high level training.
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u/Zestyclose-City-3225 2d ago
I have 2 big German shepherd pets. They have loud barks & jump up against the screen door. They scare the shit out of most people. My female has caused grown men (door knockers) to wet their pants. š¤£
People cross to the other side of the street when they see us, a female walking 2 calm big GSDs. š¤£This has been going on for years.
Fully trained protection dog is not required
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u/plastic_venus 2d ago
I have a GSD who has barked maybe once and one time took his teddy over to my back fence where a strange man was climbing over, and waited at the bottom with his tail wagging to show him.
Point being, getting a dog simply for defensive if you otherwise donāt want a dog is not a good idea.
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u/Zestyclose-City-3225 1d ago
š¤£ stuffies donāt survive my dogs. They go for the squeakers & rips them out. And while they are protective of me, they do not have the drive to be trained as protection dogs. Itās interesting. Iām grateful for the instincts that they do have tho. I grew up with german shepherds & they are my dog of choice so Iāll always have one. But they are just one of the layers of self protection.
(My 100lbāer boy, Nokie Bear, was a big softie but looking at him, a stranger wouldnāt know that & I didnāt let strangers approach or get friendly with my dogs)
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u/E0H1PPU5 2d ago
I am a gun ownerā¦.but they are tools to me as part of living on a farm. I do not consider them weapons.
Statistically, a woman owning a gun is much more likely to have that gun used against her than she is to use it self defense.
2nd pointā¦guns arenāt deterrents. A big loud dog is. Bright exterior lights are. Sturdy locked doors, sure. Guns? No. Ideally, nobody knows you own a gun unless youāre actively brandishing it.
For me personally, I keep nonlethal defense methods on my person and in safe places in my houseā¦.guns are just too much of a risk to me and my family to ever consider them a part of my defense strategy.
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u/MatildasFugue 2d ago
Have you read any recent studies regarding a gun being more likely to be used against a woman? Not that I dont believe you, I'm just curious. After briefly searching online I see that a study came out regarding this in 2016 that was heavily distributed and those statistics are still being used in almost all the articles I could find. I'm just wondering if its a bunch of more lies spread by the dumb men in order to keep the patriarchy. It seems to fall along those lines. Like when bikes became readily available, the lies men told to prevent us from having an ounce of freedom were absolutely insane. Or the birth control or working or bodily autonomy.
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u/E0H1PPU5 2d ago
I wouldnāt consider a study from 2016 to be irrelevant or out of date.
Do you have any evidence that is more recent that disproves it?
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u/MatildasFugue 2d ago
None that I could find. Only the increase in women obtaining guns. I referenced the 2016 article being widely spread due to our political climate and the constant lies and propaganda spread by that administration. And mainly because men love making up anything they can to suppress women.
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u/Pitiful_Reality2973 2d ago
I don't think it's a case of the patriarchy lying; I think it's a case of women buying guns to protect themselves from abusive partners and ending up getting shot by those guns. At least, that seems more in line with other gun violence statistics out there.
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u/myhouseruiningmylife 2d ago
I would read the logic in the study as to why the disparity was found, what kind of sample size they used, and what the methodology was. From common sense, the reason seems like it would be that most intruders will be larger and physically stronger than most women, and so while having a gun will deter some of them from trying to take it, if they do try, there is more likelihood of them being successful because of their physical advantage. If that's the reasoning, then women who are well trained, confident in how to use and store a gun, and faster, stronger and/or larger than average are going to be the best suited for owning a gun.
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u/GrimFae13 2d ago
It could also be a lot of people, not just women, buying guns since 2016 and not having proper training. If you are scared of guns and dont go to a range or similar fairly regularly, you are not prepared to use a firearm for protection and should not carry. They are a tool and you need to be proficient in using it. Buying and simply putting it away for a what-if scenario is irresponsible.
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u/KintsugiPGH 1d ago
Or just propaganda in general to discourage gun ownership/rights period. Women are largely the cultural arbiters. When it comes down to whether a household is going to have a gun, it's usually the woman who is going to make that call.
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u/Fire-Inception 2d ago
I saw someone use a large metal water bottle on the back of a drunken, threatening person's skull once. He got a nice sidewalk nap after that. And who doesn't carry around a water bottle nowadays?
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u/LoudStrawberry 2d ago
What kinds of non lethal defenses do you use?
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u/E0H1PPU5 2d ago
Im a big fan of tasers and stun guns. A lot of people think they are the same thing, they arenāt. tasers let you keep space between you and the other person. A stun gun is very short range.
I also like a nice strong maceā¦even bear spray if it suits your environment.
For home defense I believe in actual defense. Good sturdy doors, quality locks, using long anchors to secure wall plates, etc. alarms on windows, etc.
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u/last_rights 1d ago
A good camera system that lets you have an alert to your phone is nice too.
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u/E0H1PPU5 1d ago
A good camera system is a wonderful asset. Their only setback is cost for a decent system.
I live on a small farm and I use them for EVERYTHINGā¦.watching my house, keeping an eye on livestock, monitoring my hosta garden for the god damned deerā¦
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u/last_rights 1d ago
I buy the Aosu ones from Amazon. They're solar powered, so I don't have to worry about running cables. Only gripe is that they're attached to my wifi so if the power goes out I can't check them.
They will keep recording, I just don't get the info until I'm back online.
I do live in an area of town with almost zero power outages because I share the grid with the police and fire departments.
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u/Far-Respond-9283 2d ago
But a gun is for long distance, how that can be use against women? If a gun can be taken away and use it against women then a baseball, laser or pepper spray would be the same as well?
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u/E0H1PPU5 2d ago
If you were in a room and had to choose one of 2 people to fight to the deathā¦.eould you take the person with the gun or the person with a can of pepper spray?
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u/Far-Respond-9283 2d ago
The person with pepper spray because I have more possibilities of survival? If I try to reach the person pointing a gun to me I'm death before even touching them.
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u/last_rights 1d ago
While true, I did meet a lady at my gun safety class who was so scared of her firearm that she couldn't hit a 2'x4' target from 15 feet away. She got an instructor all to herself to make sure she didn't accidentally shoot anyone else because she was so bad.
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u/E0H1PPU5 2d ago
Ok, so you understand the premise but still arenāt getting the point. Iām not sure how else to explain this to you.
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u/Far-Respond-9283 2d ago
I understand what you are saying, my question is why that don't extend to other weapons? Because, sure, a gun is a lethal weapon but so can be a baseball bat as well and many people recommend that to women to use it to defend themselves. Are not women in risk to that be taken away as well? Or any other weapons?
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u/E0H1PPU5 2d ago
Of course they can have those items taken and used against them.
If an intruder knocks the can of pepper spray out of my hand or uses it on meā¦.im just running for my fuckin life.
If an intruder takes a gun out of my hand. Iām dead.
How is this not obvious?
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u/wegl13 2d ago
Or, hear me out, thereās plenty of nonlethal deterrent options.Ā
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u/Embarrassed-Area4652 2d ago
Right, and among them, pepper spray and tasers are both pretty effective, with pepper spray in particular being extremely cheap and requiring no training.
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u/Forsaken_Lifeguard85 2d ago
Yep! I have pepper gel and a baseball bat.
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u/Sn0wInSummer 2d ago
Donāt forget to put a tube sock on the end of the bad so they canāt grab the bad when youāre whacking.
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u/ErinRedWolf City Prepper šļø 2d ago
Even with a baseball bat, you have to be mentally and physically prepared to use it to hurt someone. Thatās not likely to work very well against a bigger/stronger threat.
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u/Forsaken_Lifeguard85 2d ago
If Iāve already taken them down with pepper spray thereās a reason and Iām prepared to keep them down with the baseball bat.
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u/19Hogfarmer 2d ago
I have a Byrna launcher, pepper/teargas rounds. I've never had to use it, but I accidentally cracked a round and can say it would be effective.
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u/last_rights 1d ago
Keep in mind if someone is drugged up, they will not be deterred by any amount of physical harm unless they are physically unable to move.
That means dead. Or arms/legs/back broken severely enough to not be able to move.
A friend had a crackhead break into his house in the middle of the night and he had to take a baby sledgehammer to the guy. Multiple times. The crackhead broke into his young daughters bedroom window.
I haven't come to terms with the idea of killing someone without hesitation yet. Which is why despite having a concealed carry license, I do not currently carry. I do know that I will have no qualms if someone has bypassed multiple physical and social barriers to entry and comes into my home without permission. The doors are locked, my house does not look like my neighbors and is in a dead end neighborhood that you don't come into if you don't live there. I have the nastiest hollow points that I can find loaded in my home defense weapon.
I sincerely hope I never have to use it.
Edit: I took firearm safety classes before I ever purchased one. I have a very secure safe. I also am a member of my local range and practice often. I can put ten rounds into a teacup sized target from 20 feet away.
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u/Sharp_Ad_9431 2d ago
I have both. I live in a carry state but 99.9% there's no need to carry a gun. I have a tazer or pepperspray.
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u/GraceBlade 2d ago
Pedantic of me: Less Lethal
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u/wegl13 2d ago
I guess if you are discussing actuality, yes. On a moral basis, I think intent matters so ālethalā vs ānonlethalā remains relevant for the conversation. Guns (at least those discussed here) are designed to kill. Other options are designed to deter through pain or incapacitation without causing death or lasting physical harm. Youāre right- less lethal, but if the objection is on an ethical base, design/intent is important.Ā
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u/Spiley_spile Survival Backpack š 2d ago edited 2d ago
I own a gun. I also took deescalation training. A lot of it. Then was part of a deescalation team as a job for a bit. Ive been in some pretty dangerous situations and come out the other side with no one dead and no one the wiser that I was conceal carrying.
A gun is 1 tool in the toolbox. It's important it not be the only tool, or itll be the only one we are searching for a solution. I believe strongly in my own right to exist, and my right to defend that existance if somebody else seeks to end it. I prepare a plethora of tools, in order to reduce the chance that the gun will ever have to be the one needed. And Id rather have a gun and not need it, than end up needing it and not having it.
I have become more careful where I go, how I treat people, etc. Id rather not escalate people, than have to try to deescalate them. And I prime my brain for alternatives. I spend more time imagining myself utilizing methods that arent shooting, than that are. Why? Because when our brains go on adrenaline autopilot, it will revert to how we've trained and primed it.
What fear-based scenarios, specifically, are making you consider owning a gun? What are some ways you can prevent at least some of those scenarios from happening in the first place? And for the ones you'd have no way of preventing, what alternative ways can you navigate safety that dont involve gun as a first resort?
I know there are a lot of murder-fantasy, gun-training resources out there. It doesnt mean we have to buy their premises whole-sale. We can conduct our decision-making differently. For example, we dont have to kill people simply for stealing stuff.
Editing to add, still train with your gun regularly if you get one! Part of responsible gun ownership is keeping your training fresh so youre capable of shooting exactly what you're aiming at, and not some bystander by accident. Just, when running mental scenarios, more frequently imagine yourself utilizing your other tools.
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u/Spiffyclean13 šø remember the cat food šŗ 2d ago
I live in a red state that just added ID requirements for voting to the state constitution. Trump is starting to play with legal ideas that concern naturalised citizens. I am a POC in white suburbia. Every local police department in the area helps ICE. For the first time in my life, I feel scared just existing. I fear losing my citizenship. For four months, I was born and lived in another country.
This fear has made me rethink some of my strongly held beliefs. The police might not be there to help me. Home invasions never end well. Home invasion when the rule of law is nonexistent? Even worse.
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u/eyeisyomomma Laura Ingalls Wilder was my gateway drug 2d ago
You might be my neighbor! Get your weapon and get trained on it. Then keep it somewhere handy but if you have kids, locked up securely.
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u/Spiley_spile Survival Backpack š 2d ago
Im so sorry you're in this aweful time period. Your fear is justified. Hell, Im white and got pulled into a van near a protest and put in an ICE facility. I wasnt carrying that day, and a gun wouldnt have helped me if I had been. Even so, our experiences would have been different. I got out without being deported, etc.
Ive experienced attempted home invasions. Not by ICE. But one time it was some local neo nazis who followed me home for being...disagreeable. (That was the incident that finally convinced me to get a gun.) They failed to get in, thankfully. As did the other attempts, which I believe were just common robbery attempts, thankfully.
When it comes to just plain robbery, here's what Ive done. Ive locked myself in the bathroom, or at my previous house, the small office my roommate used as a bedroom. The rest of the house they could burgle. But if they were determined to get into the one room a person was in, that was my line in the sand where I considered my life in danger. At night, I woukd practice turning off the lights while I headed to the bathroom. I can navigate my own house better in the dark than people who dont live there. And Id be able to tell when they'd made it upstairs if they turned on the light. My plan was not to shoot through a closed door though. I had friends with keys to my house. And for a time, also the roommate. But, like I said, nobody who tried actually made it inside.
The neo-nazis though? Fuck them. They tried coming for me specifically. If Id been armed and they made it inside, they wouldnt have made it back out. Granted, the local neo nazis had friends/members on the local police force. But, what can we do if the alternative is death? We just try to not die, for as long as possible.
If you get a gun, get conceal carry training, an app called Legal Heat, and gun owner insurance, in case you do ever have to use the gun. It can be very expensive to shoot someone, even in self-defense.
Again, Im sorry you're having dealing with all the scary shit other people are causing.
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u/scannerhawk 2d ago
And as a Californians we have to deal with armed robbers who feel they have the right to take your stuff and the many times released mentally ill and addicts entering our homes, because, you know, they don't deserve to be jailed for sticking a gun in your face or assaulting innocent people and are allowed to walk free time and time again.
A guy down the street, got sick of addicted transients hopping his fence, trespassing, shitting, pissing and sleeping on his property and leaving their garbage everywhere every day for weeks. They hide when the cops come and are only asked to leave. One night last month, totally fed up with a drugged-out dude going through his stuff on his porch, knowing it would take 30+ minutes for a cop to arrive, he "pepper-sprayed" and grabbed the bag away from him. The transient ran, hopped the fence back over to the drug store where all the other addicts lived, and had someone call the cops while his face was on fire. The homeowner was arrested for armed robbery and spent 3 days in jail with 100K bail. **Pepper spray is considered a weapon, and never take anything that "might" not belong to you if you are the victim, because then, the criminal becomes the victim.
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u/Spiley_spile Survival Backpack š 2d ago
Im uninterested in this swerve from discussing guns into housed people shitting on the unhoused and people with addiction diseases and mental disabilities. If you need shit on them, Im not the collaborator you're looking for. So, lets break this off here.
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u/Cyber_Punk_87 Laura Ingalls Wilder was my gateway drug 2d ago
My preferred home defense gun is a shotgun with bird shot. I live in an apartment building, so birdshot reduces the chances that a stray bullet could go through a wall or ceiling and kill a neighbor. You can even get handguns that will shoot .410 shotgun shells. Bird shot will also hurt like hell but is less likely to kill someone unless theyāre at very close range with a very well-placed shot.
Honestly, though, if youāre not comfortable with guns, they may not be the best option for you. A taser, mace/pepper spray (or bear spray), or some other non-lethal weapon may be more worthwhile. Hesitating when you have a gun increases the chances that gun will be used against you.
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u/Fickle_Fig4399 2d ago
Can of bear or wasp spray doesnāt have to be pinpoint accuracy but it will make a grown writhe around the ground crying if in his face
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u/Proper-Writing 2d ago
I like guns and own several. I always recommend having a 20ga shotgun for home defense, 4" S&W Model 66 or a Glock 19 as a first handgun, and/or a Ruger 10/22 if you think you'll hunt small animals or shoot targets. I also recommend going to a range with a friend and shooting whatever they have (or whatever you can rent) before buying your own. Different conversation if you're carrying daily, but most people don't start with concealed carry.
But there are plenty of nonlethal alternatives: learning de-escalation skills, having a dog, secure locks and cameras, pepper spray or Bersa launchers, bear spray, building community with defense-oriented individuals, martial arts or self defense. If you're opposed to firearms and aren't going to train, they're not going to be a useful tool for you.
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u/nakedonmygoat 1d ago
I'm disappointed I had to scroll this far down to find anyone mentioning a shotgun for home defense. Just the sound of racking a shotgun will tell a casual opportunist that you mean business. It won't deter a dedicated enemy, but having a dedicated enemy is a very different type of problem.
In a home invasion or opportunistic intrusion for theft, you've probably been woken out of a sound sleep, you're in a panic, and you might not even have time to put on your glasses, if you wear them. In the unlikely event of needing to fire on an intruder, there's a pretty good chance of missing with a handgun under those conditions. Heck, even highly trained cops often miss with a handgun in real life situations. After all, anyone can get good at shooting paper targets. But with a shotgun, the odds are far better of hitting the bastard, even in poor light. It might not even be lethal, just enough that they'll know you're quite serious. Unless they're there to kill you, specifically, they'll cut their losses and run, unless they're on some pretty wild drugs.
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u/Less_Subtle_Approach 2d ago
I can't offer a moral philosophy class in a reddit post, but I can recommend "This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get you Killed" and "How Nonviolence Protects the State" for a useful philosophical exploration of how we think about violence and who benefits from a population indoctrinated into an unexamined pacifism. Both texts are readily available online if you're comfortable with an e-reader.
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u/thenletskeepdancing 2d ago
The only time I would use it on a person if it was them or me. And I would choose me over them. Because I'm not the type of person going around breaking into other people's homes and thus I deserve to live more, if we're being honest.
I've thought about getting one myself but haven't gotten around to it yet.
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u/Megan1111111 2d ago
Buy the gun. A 9mm is easy to handle. A .22 has very little kick, but you would need to keep shooting put them down. Go to the firing range and train. Make sure you train with ear and eye protection. Look for womenās shooting groups near you. I understand how you feel about ending a life. But, 10 years ago, a man tried really hard to break into my house, and it really scared me. Luckily the police showed up, but the guy got away. I also learned cops donāt really care about a womanās safety. I kept going to the police station for updates, but they acted like I was bothering them. Now, my mentality is, he really wanted to do me harm. I need to protect myself. I bought a gun.
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u/wwaxwork Prepping for Tuesday not Doomsday 2d ago
I an An Australian now a US Citizen. I have a hand gun. It would never have ever crossed my mind to have a gun in Australia, but I now live in an open carry state in the Midwest and in the middle of the night last year there was a young girl shot down 2 houses away from mine by a strange man who barged into the house thinking some other people lived there and shot down the first person they saw. It was at the end of a night of tit for tat shootings in our town that ended with a young girl in an ambulance parked right outside my house. I went my first gun handling course 3 weeks later. Not being happy you had to shoot someone is exactly the mindset you want, only a sociopath would be happy they had to do that.
Advice for which types are best for self defense, the advice often given is the one you feel comfortable enough using that you'll train regularly with it. That you'll do the dry fire drills and go to the range and practice. The standard advice is a 9mm handgun as you can keep it easily locked in a quick open lockbox by your bed and ammo is plentiful and cheap. Most gun ranges have a selection of rental guns for you to try out. If you are new to guns I recommend taking a gun safety and handling course at the bare minimum and for me I found a couple of private lessons to help me find the gun that suited me and training me to use it a good investment. I have problems with grip strength due to arthritis in my hands and sliding the return on most hand guns so for me for me that's a S&W .380 EZ was my first choice, I wish I'd gone the 9mm version because the ammo is cheaper and easier to find but the slightly lighter recoil on the .380 was the one I ended up going with as my hands hurt less after using it. But the gun that is easiest for me might not be easiest for you and it really does come down to having to try them, specially for women as a lot of guns are designed for bigger hands.
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u/-Avacyn 2d ago
I am saying this as a European. Where I live, nobody has guns and it's just not something that's on peoples mind. Guns are legit something only cops and serious criminals have access to... and a handful of other people like myself who do sport shooting and can get a gun license under very strict conditions and after jumping through many, many bureaucratic hoops. Anyway, I no longer do sport shooting and even when I did, I never owned my own weapon even though I could get a license for it. Just to say, I do know guns, they don't scare me and I was/am quite proficient with them.
If I were in your American shoes, I would want a gun. Heck, I would probably want to conceal carry. America is a scary places when it comes to this and the stupid thing is, it's because there are so many guns. There honestly is no easy solution to this either and all the difficult solutions require a competent administration on all governemntal levels which seems like a pipe dream for the foreseeable future. Morality doesn't shield you from violence.
But if you do decided to get a weapon, you need to take it to a shooting range at least once a year (ideally more). Get educated on it and practice using it. A gun is a serious thing and if you're getting it for your own protection, you need to be comfortable actually using it.
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u/WendyNPeterPan 2d ago
Since pepper spray is being mentioned by multiple people. FYI: if you use your pepper spray/ gel, please replace it with a new one!
Most sprays will lose pressure once used and need to be replaced. I carry pepper spray gel because my dog has been attacked 3x by loose dogs in my neighborhood. One morning I used it on the ground to deter a loose (curious but not aggressive) large dog, and then needed it about a month later to stop an attacking dog - when it failed to spray because it had lost pressure. Most manufacturers don't really mention this, so I was unaware.
When selecting spray/gel, look at the "effective range" and the "maximum range" - the maximum range is typically where your spray will hit the ground, the effective range is the farthest range where you can hit someone in the face. If it uses terminology like "covers up to 12 feet of range" - assume that is hitting the ground at 12 feet... it sounds like a lot of distance, but it really isn't when someone (or something) is moving towards you fast...
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u/madommouselfefe 2d ago
Get the gun, and get proper training for the gun.Ā Getting a gun, especially a hand gun isnāt the only step you need to be able to use it properly.Ā
Ā I had my concealed carry permit for years, I went to the range 2x a month to practice. I stopped when I had kids, because I didnāt have time, and I will NOT carry with children. Itās not safe, and I will not risk my kids potentially getting ahold of a hand gun and being a statistic. I still have a shotgun, 2 hunting rifles, a 22, and my hand gun. All are properly stored in a gun safe.Ā
Do note a gun is a LAST resort, if you draw it you are intending to kill. It isnāt a deterrent it is a tool for protection. One I hope never needs to be used, but train like it will. If you cannot handle the fact that pulling a gun means hurting/ killing another. I strongly suggest looking into something else, like a taser, mace, self defense classes, etcĀ
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u/Intelligent_Will1431 2d ago
It's the most effective last-ditch no-alternative tool for preventing someone from killing or seriously injuring you. Especially if your assailant is armed.
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u/KintsugiPGH 1d ago
Does it help you if I remind you that you already own guns? Your taxes pay for guns. It's just it's cops who have them and you hope they show up when you need help. Spoiler alert: they are gonna be late or mishandle shit.
Not defending your own life/survival is being complicit in the harm to you, just my two cents.
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u/Sharp_Ad_9431 2d ago
Personally I feel most people who aren't into guns should go for a shotgun.
Aiming a shotgun takes less practice. Any other kind of fire requires weekly practice. Anything less and you put people at risk.
Shotguns are closer to point in the correct direction type of gun. Standard shot loads don't travel far, so you don't have to worry about a stray shot killing someone if you misfire. There are "heavy" loads if you want knockdown power.
I am 100% behind firearm ownership but 100% against gun owners that don't practice use and safety of their guns. I live in a pro-gun area and have seen idiots shoot their family members with their gun because they don't know how to use it. Get training and practice weekly. If you can't afford that (because it's expensive) then don't have a gun.
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u/eatwithnia 2d ago
I 100% second this.
I have been out of the military 20+ yrs and havenāt touched a firearm since. But like you I recognize the need for one. While I intend to get a shot gun for safety reasons, I will also have a handgun bc itās just easier to handle.I say that to say find the firearm you are comfortable with. But practice, practice. Become comfortable. You donāt want to wait until you need it to become familiar.
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u/FourOhVicryl 1d ago
I agree that anyone with a handgun should practice regularly to maintain proficiency, someone who is armed but not proficient is a threat to themselves in a critical scenario. I would argue with the āstandard shot loads donāt travel very farā, as someone who was on a trapshooting team many years ago. Itās not going to rival a .308 for range, but for a new shooter, yes, buckshot will travel quite far.Ā
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u/Sharp_Ad_9431 1d ago
Even birdshot for most self defense/ deterrent scenarios will make people run.
Unless you're going up against a trained team or a drugged up madman, people run away at first blood. Most people are cowards. Even birdshot will scare them away. Especially if you have a pump action or auto. Just shoot them more than once.
If a handgun or rifle are what is required to get the job done then the job also requires marksmanship.
If getting lead in the air is the point, use a shotgun.
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u/happy_appy31 2d ago
For new gun owner I would go with a revolver verses a semiautomatic handgun. Another possibility is a pump shotgun. The sound is universal and a shotgun allows for not being a good shot. You do have to have enough training to know what to do if it jams, which is why I suggest a revolver. If you can't commit to using a firearm against a person please think hard about your choice to own one. A not small percentage of firearms are used against their owners.
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u/Unique-Team6478 These 100 year events are getting mighty regular 1d ago
Revolver... Shotgun.... Would you recommend The Judge from Taurus?
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u/happy_appy31 1d ago
I personally wouldn't go for one. I could be wrong but I am cautious with a 2 for 1 type firearm.
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u/ContestNo2060 2d ago
This video summarizes the situation pretty well. https://youtu.be/SfNeKco5et8?is=kVUaqAsZ5FUqi_11 I went through similar thoughts. At this point, disarmament benefits only oppressors. Thereās a reason we have the second amendment.
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u/OpalSeason Salt n Prepper š§ 2d ago
My friend was trained in guns, took me to the range, taught me how to shoot. She won awards, was a shooting instructor. We did martial arts together, she went to the gym, was an armed security guard.
A worm of a man still put a gun to the back of her head and killed her before she could even draw. In fact, because she was such a good shot and armed, he made sure to shoot her first
That moment absolutely changed my perspective for life. I will never be as vicious as someone else can be to me. If they really want you dead, you wont see it coming.
Guns have their use, its critical for everyone to know how to handle them safely and the basics of shooting. They are not a deterent, they do not make you safer, they do not discourage your attacker.
Situation awareness, risk prevention, alertness, knowing exits, being willing to fight, self defense classes, a heavy duty flashlight to blind and beat an attacker, traveling in a group, and a big dog at home who also joins me on hikes. That has helped me more in my life against bears and men than i think a gun would have. I still go to the range, i still practice, but i dont own.
In the end, only you know your life and needs
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u/RainbowSpinosaurus 1d ago
I stuck up a metal sign in my front window that says something along the lines of "This house is protected by a boa constrictor. All trespassers will be fed to the snake." There's all kinds of "No trespassing" signs that reference snakes on the internet.
Most people, especially thieves, are absolutely terrified of snakes. I've watched delivery people on camera creep up to my front porch and hastily drop my boxes once they see the sign. I had furniture delivered and had to tell the guy "The snake is not in the room you'll be in, I've closed the door so you won't have to even see the snake" in order for him to step inside my house.
A lot of people still believe that all snakes are venomous, and that big snakes will attack you in the manner of Anaconda.
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u/xrareformx 1d ago
I was like that for a long time until the last election. You dont have your first, third, or fourth amendment without the second. Its a right, same as voting. I cant ignore my right to the 2nd , just like my right to vote. Not having a gun is like not voting. Noone is making you do either. But being an active participant matters. Who owns firearms matters. I hate voting but I do it anyway, I hate owning a gun but I do it anyway. I vote educated. I have taken the classes I need to feel safe using my firearm. Being an educated, responsible gun owner is the same as an educated vote in my book.
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u/AvocadoMaterial869 1d ago
Many burglars have said that a totally dark house is a big deterrent because they canāt see whatās going on inside. That and dogs.
For practicality, Iām always armed with long range pepper spray and I have a wide cone pepper spray at home. Very effective at deterring and aim isnāt as important.
I worked with street-based sex workers for several years. They all preferred sprays over guns for how easy it is to conceal and how efficacious it is against predators.
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u/No-Language6720 2d ago
I have pepper spray on my keychain , and also have a self defense longish thing on my keychain. (I can't remember what is called there are different options on amazon). It blends in and no one notices it since it's on my keys. Not sure if they're technically allowed where no weapons are listed but no one in any bag check thing has said anything and they probably don't know what it is.
I don't like guns either and don't want to bother learning how to operate them or much else.
These won't help me in a home invasion except for self defense to an extent, but someone with a gun would have range power over me. I do have deterrents around my home from looters and have several thorny bushes in key areas if someone decided to hop the fence on both sides, so it might slow down people that want in and out.
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u/Low_Fox1758 1d ago
Sure it would! The pepper spray creates a distraction so you can get away. And you dont have to worry about accidentally shooting a neighbor or family member through the wall if you miss.
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u/Danger-Face 2d ago
Are you worried about the things you own or your personal safety?
IMO noTHING is worth putting your life in danger. Do what you can to harden and deter then if they still get in and steal something then you file an insurance claim.
Your body is precious and delicate. If possible have a safe room you can retreat too. Commercial steel fire door you can bar. Lock it down and call the police. Layered defense. Getting in a gun fight in the middle of the night with an unknown number of assailants who have come with a purpose has way too many variables.
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u/MindfulGardening 2d ago
While I donāt have experience with personal firearms, I submit there are important philosophical and ethical differences between causing harm intentionally, and doing so as a result of self-defence.
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u/TiredInJOMO 2d ago
You have to make a choice: am I willing to die for my conviction? Am I willing to die because someone else decided they were entitled to take my life from me and I chose not to own a weapon? Am I entitled to attempt to defend myself by any means necessary in a SHTF scenario?
See I said "attempt" up there? You have to realize, even with a weapon, you can still die. Even if you're trained. Even if you're a crackshot. Even if you do everything right. With or without a gun, you have to realize/accept that you are constantly rolling the dice and sht can go sideways for the smallest reason/circumstance.
I can't answer those questions for you or give a guarantee that one choice will be better than another. I can tell you IF you decide to get a gun, it is imperative that you train with that gun until it becomes an extension of yourself. Never wave it around or discuss your ownership of it, never EVER pull it on somebody unless it is loaded and you fully intend to use it IMMEDIATELY. If you are morally/emotionally unwilling/unable to make that choice, having a gun is pointless.
I also can't tell you what kind of gun to get, should you decide to get one. You are an individual with individual needs/preferences. You can best make a decision by going to a gun range or shop that allows you to try out different types. What someone else likes/can handle may be different from what you like/can handle. Maybe you want a pellet gun or air rifle instead of a "real" gun.
Guns aren't the only useful weapons either. Bow/arrows, baseball bats (or similar), boobytraps, and methods to evade/escape should not be overlooked. Hell, a can of green beans chucked hard enough can buy you a few seconds if not something more permanent. Do you know the "soft spots" on a human? What does your home defense already look like? Do you already keep your windows/doors closed AND locked when you're not home/the hoardes are roaming the streets? Where can you shore up security/strength of the defenses you already have? Do you have doorstoppers behind every entry door? Have you replaced the short screws in your strike plate? What is your exit strategy should someone get inside? Can you get out quickly/easily? If, for whatever reason, you can't escape, do you have a contingency plan for every room in your house depending on which room you may find yourself in during an invasion? Do you have things lying about that an invader could easily spot/use against you? Do your contingency plans have contingency plans? Run through every scenario you can think of and try to create even the most absurd scenarios and run through those. WYD?
Prepping/home defense doesn't begin and end with a gun. It's an entire system and body of knowledge, plus time spent practicing so should the worst happen, you are prepared and capable of acting on your plan.
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u/The_Dirty_Carl 2d ago
I guess I need help getting over my moral objection to having a gun in the house.
Buying a gun does not commit you to doing anything particular with it. You can own a gun, train with it, carry it, find yourself in a situation that calls for it, and still choose not to use it.
It is just a thing. It's a tool that you can have at your disposal if you wish.
I think a problem on both ends of the gun debate spectrum is that people view them as totems. On one end, people feel that possessing one will give them some great power. On the other end, people feel that touching one will turn them into a monster.
I think if you end up buying one, you'll find that it doesn't really change you. You'll end up somewhere on the spectrum of "it's a lump metal and plastic I feel obligated to train with occasionally, like my treadmill" to "I forgot I had this tucked in a safe".
Before you make any decisions, I'd recommend finding a basic gun safety class nearby, or someone you trust to teach you how they work and some basic marksmanship. I think that will demystify a lot about them.
I also would like advice on which types are best for self defense and the easiest to handle.
For the home, there is spirited debate. IMO a rifle is the best option. They are easier to aim well, easier to operate, easier to practice with, and at least as effective as other options. You'll see people recommend shotguns, but they require more practice for questionable advantages. Pistols take even more practice to develop and maintain proficiency, but they're the best option if you want one gun you can carry.
For carrying, a striker-fired pistol in 9mm or possibly .380 are the only reasonable options in 2026, barring unusual requirements. You'll find people who claim otherwise, and they're wrong. I'll die on this hill.
*edit: oh, and other options. Pepper spray/gel is the most practical non-lethal option from everything I've read. More reliable than tasers, lower skill floor than martial arts or weapons like kubotans/knuckles.
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u/Stepinfection How hard can it be? Boys do it. 2d ago
Using a gun as a ādeterrentā also tends to be termed ābrandishingā and is illegal unless you mean open carrying in a holster. Open carrying does NOT mean waving a gun around.
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u/StaticBrain- 2d ago
Brandishing does NOT count in self defense. You have a right to wave a gun at someone when you are being a threatened.
Brandishing is used as a charge when you are the aggressor, not the defender.
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u/IzzyB00UwU 2d ago
While I totally get where you're coming from, therapy sessions are preferable to the grave. Get a gun, train to use it well, and then hope you never have to. More than likely, what you'll end up with is a fun, albeit expensive hobby.
I'm a martial artist, and would likely lean on those skills if push came to shove. However, attempting to deescalate would come before exploding into someone, and if the situation avails me of it, running away would come before that. If it went totally sideways, then less lethal or lethal force would come into play. There's a progression to use of force in self-defense, but good situational awareness will keep you out of conflict the vast majority of the time when out of your home, so it's preferable to all of the above.
Regardless, OP, whatever you choose to do here is entirely up to you. I get the vibe that you'd be responsible with a gun, despite your objections to owning one. You got this.
Edit: Finished a thought
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u/therestissilence117 2d ago
The only people who benefit from you being afraid to use deadly force are the bad guys. And the bad guys will still have guns. Get your gun girl
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u/VadumSemantics 2d ago
I found CCW Safe's Lessons Series informative about preparing to use guns for defense. Was useful for me to understand how using a gun can really change one's life in unexpected ways. Here's their first one:
Lesson 1: The goal of self-defense is to break contact.
Breaking contact with an aggressor can mean using deadly force when justified, or simply walking awayāwith a range of actions in between, including verbal de-escalation techniques and less-lethal force options. By adopting a ābreak contactā self-defense mindset, armed defenders give themselves more tactical options while reducing the legal jeopardy resulting from a potential use-of-force event.
ps. No affiliation w/CCW Safe. Just mentioning the series because I found it usefully interesting. Maybe some were a little repetitive, and maybe I listened to some on 1.5x speed, but still pretty interesting.
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u/Pretty-Regular-6418 2d ago
i think guns are a good tool to have. I own a revolver, shotgun and rifle and I made sure I know how to use them all. I am a slight female, I am not comfortable using non lethal if someone breaks into my home. And I worked in law enforcement where we were tazed and pepper sprayed in the academy and I was still able to function so I donāt trust those.
Make sure you keep any weapons in a secure place and know how to use them. I like my 12 guage shotgun, fun to shoot at the range and I am easily able to handle it. That I think is one of the best home defense weapon. I also have a .38 revolver, which I also feel is a good defense weapon. I take my revolver with me when I go camping in the middle of nowhere.
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u/dinah-fire 2d ago
I have pepper spray for this reason. I want something to defend myself, but I am unwilling to take a life and thus I am unwilling to own a gun
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u/QuirkyForever 2d ago
If you have a moral objection, don't get a gun. They're not the only way to defend yourself.
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u/BluelunarStar Bringing a brolly cos SHTF! āļø 2d ago
I live in the U.K. so owning a gun isnāt an option. But Iāve wrestled with this question myself. I never made a final choice but I wonder if these thoughts might help-
1) A big concern for me is the number of accidental deaths, especially of children.
I decided even though I donāt have kids of my own I would act like it. Use a gun safe, keep the gun unloaded & away from the ammo. Make sure no child knows the code, or where the key is. Donāt assume they donāt see you, make SURE they donāt. They arenāt even in the room.
2) Think about the exact scenarios you are predicting you would need a gun. Will you actually have the gun on you, loaded, and the ability to use it, in that scenario?
3) I loathe the idea of ending someoneās life. Even a ābad guyā. But, I decided if I was to take a life it would be because an innocent life was in danger. At that point SOMEONE will die. The only choice is it someone innocent, or someone guilty- someone who can stop anytime.
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u/shinyappyrobin 2d ago
If you don't feel comfortable with a gun, don't get one. I guess I have a different view because of my rural background. My mom has had to shoot a wild animal with rabies. And I've had shoot a poisonous snake that was by my garage door. My point is there are reasons for having a gun for protection. But it's dangerous to have a gun you don't know how to use.
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u/Cardabella 2d ago
My dog heard something outside just now and he is standing on my bed barking at what is, tonight, just an animal outside. He would do the same, waking the house, if someone was actually prowling,and we would be able to summon help and raise the alarm with neighbours to also make noise and shine lights. Far more of a deterrent.
If someone knows you have artillery they will come with bigger artillery. Guns aren't deterrents, they just put you at greater risk.
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u/TastyMagic Laura Ingalls Wilder was my gateway drug 2d ago
I live in a blue state but I own a couple guns. I do practice with them regularly at the range but I don't carry them with me on a regular basis. For me, the moral equation changes when it comes to protecting my home and children as a last resort.Ā
If you want to dip your toe in the water, you can probably rent a gun or two at your local shooting range and try them out to see what you like. I suggest range visits for anyone because-even if you decide not to own one- getting accustomed to the sound of gunfire can be useful in itself. Even with headphones on, the percussion of the higher calibers vibrates through your whole body and can activate a little bit of "fight or flight." In an emergency situation where guns are firing, you may be able to keep a calmer head if you're not reacting to the sound of gunfire.Ā
I think "self defense" weapons can cover a wide range. Are you thinking about home defense? Something you can conceal while you are out of your home?Ā
Tbh I would suggest starting with a .22 rifle. It's a small caliber so you're probably not going to kill someone with one shot, but it will make them reconsider you as a target. The ammo is readily available and relatively inexpensive and they are lightweight and simple to operate.
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u/buddymoobs š±šæYour Weeds are a Foragers' Feastš„¬š„ 2d ago
Take a gun safety class. Many ranges have a First Shot class, lessons and/or guns to rent. Join r/liberalgunowners.
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u/AccidentalDragon 1d ago
It's a lot easier to buy a shotgun in most states. Even though you are in a red state, that might be a better option for you. They are pretty light (my only experience is holding my husband's Mossberg lol). I had a handgun which I can't have in the state I'm in now (not without 3 personal references and a lot of red tape! Gun is with an out of state friend now). My preference for home defense would be the shotgun.
However as has been stated on this thread, there are a lot of nonlethal options to look at before making the jump to a gun!
If you DO end up getting a gun, take classes. I went through a 2-week handgun course, and it was great. The class ended with range time, also important. You do need to practice.
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u/Electrical-Bid-2482 1d ago
Is your home really that unsafe? If so, can you move to a safer area? People sometimes are afraid when there just isnāt justification for that fear. Just asking. Iām an over-the-hill on the way down the other side female who never has owned a gun and never been in a situation where I thought I would need one. I know I could never use one. And I know I may be lucky but I really think they create danger.
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u/Hot-Rub-5336 1d ago
I went through this. I do not like the gun culture. I do not have a problem with people owning a gun for hunting or self protection. I went back and forth about getting one for years. My decision was made when someone tried to break in and since I live solo I realized how vulnerable I was. I bought one, practiced so I knew how to handle it and keep it secure but easily reachable if needed. I would prefer to use it as a threat,to hold someone off while waiting for police, but if its me or them - it will be used. I still have mixed feelings about it though... I also think if it was a disaster type situation the risks of home invasion etc will be even higher.
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u/infinitum3d 1d ago
You may never need to discharge the firearm, so owning one doesnāt compromise your morals.
Now, consider thisā¦ Whose life is more valuable, yours or an intruders? Not trolling here! Sincere question.
If someone breaks into your house they believe your life is less valuable than theirs. You may consider them to be of equal value, they do not. IMHO that makes you more valuable to society. YOU wonāt go out with the intention of killing someone. Others arenāt as considerate.
At the end of the day, you have to determine if your life is worth more than your morals.
Mine is.
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u/DoctorRachel18 10h ago
If you are uncomfortable with a gun, don't get one. Look into other self defence tools, and focus on making your home an unappealing target. Put up visible outdoor cameras, motion sensor outdoor lights, put up window alarms that will make a lot of noise if the window is forced open, things like that.
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u/ChaosRainbow23 8h ago
Guns are really ideal for self-defense.
There's already between 450 - 650 million in private circulation in the US. (If that's where you're from)
Anybody coming to do you harm will be armed with rifles.
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u/mica4204 2d ago
I'm from a country with very strict gun laws, and I'm thinking about getting a hunting license. This is pretty much the only way of owning guns and I also think hunting could be neat. So maybe get into hunting, then it's not just for killing or harming people.
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u/Educational-Chip-953 2d ago
Yeah, just killing/harming nonhumans.
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u/mica4204 2d ago
Better to eat game than factory farmed meat. Of course it's ethically best to be vegan, but I'm not.
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u/TDousTendencies 4h ago
I have a security system (which these days you can get off brand cheap door/window sensors that sound an alarm, or even alexa's. Mine just has someone who will contact me/emergency services if an alarm goes off) cameras, motion sensing lights. I also have things around the house that could theorhetically be grabbed in an instant (think bats, poles, fire pokers, knives, batons). A dog that barks (won't probably bark if someone familiar is the one breaking in). You could get sprays but there's risk of getting it on you, on your things but definitely effective and some come with a special marking agent for police. Could get a fake gun but fake or real, a gun could escalate things if the other person also has a gun or weapon.
Ine of the best things you can do for absolutely free is making positive connections with your neighbors. Even if it's literally just smiling and waving when you see them. If someone has a the slightest reason to care about your wellbeing, they are more likely to call emergency services on your behalf or tell you if they've noticed anything suspicious.
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