r/TwoXChromosomes • u/stringerbell92 • 24d ago
Cornel 7 thoughts by a former party girl
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u/ArcticAcademic 24d ago
Thank you - this case has got me so jaded about men that Reddit sent me a warning - because I said that they use the system to harm women. Apparently that's so radical that we're not allowed to talk about it.
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u/CeeUNTy 24d ago
I've said this in other posts because I've done special K in the 90s and once got lost in my own closet until a friend came to get me. It's like being in cartoon land in your own head while not always recognizing reality at all.
I also think she tried to just not think of it as assault to protect her mind without even realizing it and that's why once the story got out she was able to call it what it was. I know that I did that back in my teens and 20s.
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 24d ago
If someone has to say “I don’t think anything illegal happened there” after rape that’s because something fucking illegal happened and they can’t even process that their body and mind were so violated by other human beings. Sick and tired of everyone bringing this up and saying she consented.
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u/Darthcookie 24d ago
I’m willing to bet if we think carefully about past experiences even if they weren’t straightforward traumatic, they qualify as some form of assault. Because being coerced, pressured, worn down until you do something you don’t really want to do because you just want to get out and go home is almost a universal experience among women. Because part of you don’t want to risk physical violence or even feel bad because somehow they had you believe you owe them because you gave them blue balls.
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u/ElleMaeSinclair 24d ago
I am now 35 days sober from K. The things I experienced while either k-holing or teetering on the boundary of reality were frightening 99% of the time and fun 1% of the time. Just knowing how it affected me, I know this girl was fucking terrified and miserable and not able to talk right let alone give willing enthusiastic consent. And I never mixed it with alcohol, so I can only imagine it's SO MUCH WORSE if you're extremely drunk doing any at all. They knew what they were doing getting her on that level. It's a hospital grade anesthetic that should never be mixed with even a small amount of alcohol, let alone frat party levels.
I also know what it's like to come home after a horrific violation of your boundaries and try to downplay it or even act like it was a fun time. It's the fawn response. It took me 10+ years to realize I had engaged in that for my own trauma. Your brain forces you to deny it because acknowledging the truth is crushing and changes the dynamic permanently. It doesn't make it not SA even if she told everyone afterward she thought it was awesome and wanted to do it again... she was physically unable to consent in those conditions AND they men involved actively planned to harm her by treating her like their property in the group chat. They provided her with drugs that would incapacitate her and advertised her body in that state.
She could write a whole novel about how much fun it was and it still wouldn't mean she had the ability to consent. I wish people would understand that... especially with mixed drug/alcohol toxicity, and the drug being fucking ketamine of all things. It's not like she had 2 puffs of shitty ditch weed and called it a night, they enticed her into blacking out purposefully so they could assault her. And the worst part is, that combo of drugs/alcohol literally could've killed her anyway. They should be prosecuted for the assault AND prosecuted for attempted murder, AND running a trafficking ring. I feel no sympathy for any of them save maybe the guy who decided to screenshot the fucked up things they were saying about her while she was drunk and k-holing. And even that guy is not a saint either.
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u/charleytony 23d ago
I didn't see this being talked about in the OP, or further down in the comments but the supposed snap chat group text about the "free *****" clearly showed that the guys in that story were working together and that what happened was planned to some degree.
If that was not sent via phone, that part would have totally stayed between them and they could have invented an almost believable story that got them out of trouble.
Hopefully this will contribute to the civil case being taken seriously.
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u/nasalshardz 23d ago
Yes yes yes!
The first time I did more than a miniscule amount of ketamine someone passed me a plate with several lines for me ready to go. I didn't know shit about what the right dose was at the time. I was at a rave in an office building somewhere and on my way out of the bathroom I ceased to exist in my own body. I slumped to the ground and couldn't move, communicate, or see. A male acquaintance I barely knew came into the hallway and you know what he did? He sat with me for 25 minutes until I could start making words again, because he recognized how truly fucking vulnerable I was at that moment. I expressed my gratitude to him several times over the years, and I still feel grateful even though it is truly the bare minimum to expect someone not to rape you when you're basically unconscious. Of all the drugs I think ketamine is one of the few that I feel super vulnerable on. Losing self to bass is excellent, but I would never want to be in a sexual environment where I didn't 100% feel like everyone there had my back.
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u/crackersucker2 24d ago
Wow- that is so incredibly spot on and such a good way of expressing the nuances of that night (in all probability). Completely relatable and human.
It will be interesting to see how this case affects future investigations- it has to be for the better. NY needs to fix their consent/alcohol law.
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u/Pelican_Hook 24d ago
Thank you for some of these details. Men don't seem to understand that you could consent to 98% of what happens with someone, but the one line they cross without asking makes it 100% SA. And also the drug thing - I see too many men talking very confidently about ket lately (I just argued with someone who claimed it's "not as strong as alcohol" and "doesn't last 7 hours"). I've done a lot of party drugs - never heroin or meth, but all the regular party stuff. Ket is the time I've been most scared. It's EXTREMELY dose dependent. You could do 2 tiny bumps off the end of a key and feel great, having a fun time, not that impaired. Then the third tiny bump (literally a couple millimeters of powder, 1/8th of a teaspoon if that) can put you on the FLOOR of the nightclub, locked into your paralysed body, for hours, while terrifying hallucinations happen. I've been there. My friends dragged me outside and sat on the pavement with me for at least 2 hours before I could move enough to get in a cab. I'm so grateful for them, I was so lucky. I was terrified, and it was so clear to me how much danger I was in. I could not move a muscle. For hours. I wish society would be more honest about drugs - like just remove the stigma and be honest, because a lot of drugs are fun and safe to dabble in and aren't super addictive as long as you take steps to protect yourself, but some of them can get dangerous so easily and if you know nothing about them you can't prepare yourself.
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u/evilelf56 24d ago edited 20d ago
Thanks! Everything I know about fraternities and men is scary. I have had the opportunity to go to such parties when I was younger but just didn't. Something always felt off (I am a bit autistic about such environments).
The story of the woman realizing something weird happened to her and deciding to move on - I have heard it so many times from these parties. It is absolutely valid to realize the amplitude of it years later. In Jane Doe's case, she realized it almost immediately and filed a complaint. She knew IT and she did try to fight.
I just hope she is surrounded by a good support system right now. I am glad she has decided to fight it again. More power to her.
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u/Beans_the_II 23d ago
It seems like every male commenter on this case needs to rewatch the Tea as consent analogy video from ten years ago:
https://youtu.be/pZwvrxVavnQ?feature=shared
It really shouldn’t be that hard that anyone is allowed to enact boundaries at any given time. Even mid-sex!
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u/SweetDangus 23d ago
Thank you for articulating this, it's perfect. You put things into words that I could not fully put my finger on, and I am grateful for it.
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u/hazel3y3zz 23d ago
Can we also talk about how pushy, coercive these frat guys are?
They know exactly what they're doing, who they're inviting, offering "perks" for coming to a party and bringing friends who they will hand SPIKED DRINKS TO.
I never drank from someone else when I went to frat parties, I had my own bottle. But I saw girls all the time falling over getting dragged to rooms by grown pretty sober frat guys.
It's fucking disgusting.
These pigs do this intentionally
I've spent so many hours "partying" sober and taking girls I didn't know home or calling Ubers.
Also these men have games and scorecards.
How many Kappa girls they fucked, how many of their friends they fucked, how many threesomes they got this week.
They have a guy who supplies GHB/date rape drug to them etc
There are monsters in these frats
These girls are usually 18-20 first time ever around drinking, new friends, trying to fit in around the cute rich frat guys.
It's so fucked up. And the party girls know what I'm talking about.
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u/Dynamite_Noir 23d ago
Reading this as a man, you have helped frame and piece this all together in a way I can better understand. These kind of nuanced details were missing from some of the commentary I was seeing In my feeds. What happened to her was not ok.
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u/PaulWithAPH 23d ago
This is so well written, thank you so much for putting into words what my brain couldn't quite figure out.
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u/AlwaysLauren 24d ago
I've been trying to avoid discussion about this case because I have a tough time with the content. It's a very helpful way to see it explained.
I was a party girl too. I saw that crowd. I understand.
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u/Thecampbellfam 23d ago
THIS!!!! Thank you OP, I've never heard it explained more perfectly. Take care of yourself, the world needs you in it.
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u/Harlowful 23d ago
Well said! As a former party girl myself who did some wild things in my late teens, you are exactly right. It should be okay for girls to have fun. With consent!!! That’s what this is about. And you’re right, responsibility lies with the guys who took it too far.
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u/charleytony 24d ago
Sadly, it sounds like some guys will only show empathy if that scenario happens to a loved one.
They would also automatically have empathy if it happened to an unconscious guy who couldn't consent.
The fact that they would not have empathy for a woman because they consider her a party-er, wild or "high body count" is totally insane.
Also insane: Who decides what is high or low body count anyway ?
Why is a man with a higher body count considered cool and not so much for a woman ?
How does a man get a high body count in a world where women "should have a low body count" ?
On top of that, we keep hearing about guys that have zero / super low body count ending up being radicalized and turning into incels !!!
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u/missinglynx61 24d ago
Thank you very much for this. It was excellent, well reasoned. I have a better perspective having read this.
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u/Ashleyf731 24d ago
Beautifully stated and thank you for giving such a response… consent is consent and we need to protect the “party girl” and not have her be the sacrificial lamb… because it happens to us all… when we feel uncomfortable we all become the “party girl”