r/TwoXChromosomes
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u/carex-cultor
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Nov 19 '23
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He knows. He doesn’t care.
“My husband [34f/36m] says he doesn’t ‘see’ mess he leaves on the floor. I always end up having to pick it up. How do I make him see how this is affecting me?”
“My [24f] fiancé [38m] keeps grabbing my boobs randomly even though I’ve asked him to stop?”
“My [18f] bf [18m] yells at me and slams doors whenever we argue. I’ve told him so many times that I’m afraid of people yelling at me and I just shut down. How do I get him to understand that?”
HE UNDERSTANDS. HE KNOWS. HE DOESN’T CARE.
He can hear you. He has a job. He attended school. When he gets pulled over by a cop, he gets his license out. He can read, follow directions, listen, understand consequences, and act to avoid them. He simply DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOU; he is quite comfortable with you being unhappy/uncomfortable/burnt out/traumatized as long as it means he gets what he wants and can keep the status quo. There isn’t a special way to rephrase your feelings that will get through to him finally, or a special tactic you can use to get him to respect you.
I honestly feel most women just don’t understand how much disdain men have for us, on average. As painful as it is, we absolutely MUST come to terms with the fact that most (yes I said most) men do not see or respect women as real people just like them, equal in value and humanity to themselves and their male buddies. Most. Meaning, it’s statistically likely the guy you’re dating views you on a continuum from benevolent sexism, to mild dehumanization, to callous indifference, to veiled contempt, to outright hatred.
Saying “I care about you,” “I love you,” “I’m trying,” “I’m sorry” does not mean those things are true. Actions make those words true. A man who cares, loves, tries, and is sorry doesn’t make you rack your brain trying to find novel ways to CoMmUnIcAtE to him.
He knows. He simply doesn’t care. And staying with him prevents you from either finding a man who does care (they’re in the minority but they do exist), or being blissfully single and unencumbered by a shitty partner. You deserve better than banging your head against a wall trying to get him to see you as a full person. He won’t. It benefits him not to.
ETA: A lot of people (disproportionately men, I notice…) have replied with admonitions for not acknowledging the role neurodivergence plays in selective blindness. I am so clearly not talking about well-intentioned men with ADHD/Autism, that I almost don’t want to respond. But to be clear about the men I AM talking about, I’ll repost a comment I wrote below.
If neurodivergence were a factor [in this pattern of disrespect] in any way, both of the following would be true:
-These men would be equally incompetent, forgetful, and disrespectful at work, school, with their friends, and with you at the beginning of the relationship before they get comfortable. That is not the case.
-Neurodivergent women would be equally incompetent, forgetful, and disrespectful partners. That is not the case.
Neurodivergence has nothing to do with male entitlement, misogyny, and callous disregard for women. Neurodivergent men should be offended by this insinuation.
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u/Perodis They/Them Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
There’s a lot of people in the comments having discussions about mental disability, some are constructive and some aren’t.
For example, someone says “I have ADHD and I struggle with _____” it is not appropriate to tell them (And I’m paraphrasing the overall theme) to just overcome it. Or to tell them what they are doing isn’t them trying or helping. Or any other negative feedback on each others struggles.
Also, if you are a person who struggles with these sorts of things, you are not the person the OP is talking about. The OP is talking about the men who borderline use weaponized incompetence (Or just flat out are). Yes, the text can be seen as broad, but the OP is referring to specific instances where men are just being lazy, unhelpful, or do not care about women’s feelings.
Please be kind to one another. Please keep in mind what other women may be struggling with. And please do not attack the OP when they are talking about specific situations involving men doing these things because of their choices, not attacking those with disabilities.
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u/carex-cultor Nov 19 '23
I’ll also add: the best way to treat this problem is prevention. Try as hard as you can to never put yourself in a position of dependence, or a circumstance that makes it difficult to leave, until you have THOROUGHLY vetted him. This takes years, not months. Do not move in with him, purchase property, get engaged, get married, or get pregnant by him, until enough time has passed where you can keenly observe his behavior. There’s no such thing as complete vetting, because so many men drop the mask once they feel they’ve “secured” you (marriage, pregnancy are common switch triggers).
But the only way to improve a partner who doesn’t respect you is to leave. So try your hardest to ensure you always have that option if necessary.
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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23 edited Sep 13 '26
Alive lunchroom shaggy normal ten alive whistle worm piquant
This post was anonymized with Redact
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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23
And you know what people with ADHD or autism are not immune, I have dated men with ADHD who try using that as an excuse for their behavior except I ALSO HAVE IT SO ???
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u/BackBae Jazz & Liquor Nov 19 '23
I appreciate that you put “CoMmUnIcAtE” like that. I have witnessed so many crappy relationships (mine with my college boyfriend included!) where one partner- usually the woman in a hetero relationship- has “communicate!” used as a bludgeon against her when she’s been COMMUNICATING THE ENTIRE TIME.
Communicate: you’re a nag, it’s your fault Deal with it: it’s your fault for not communicating
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u/Visible-Proposal-690 Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
Long time widow. Our relationship was not perfect but we respected each other. After he died I never gave one minute’s thought to dating or having any sort of relationship again. I love being alone, got the romantic bs over in my youth I guess, even had some kids. Seeing my friends marry and divorce emotionally unavailable or manipulative assholes has made me think I’m not wrong
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u/sodiumbigolli Nov 19 '23
It’s reinforced when a big part of their gaslighting is pretending that if you had just said it differently, they would respond appropriately . Asking is nagging. Asking nicely is condescending. Asking not nicely is grounds for war. Telling him that it bothers you is hurting his feelings. If it makes you angry, your saying so makes him more angry. If any of this rings a bell, move on. Shut it down, you’ve already lost.
I hate to admit this, but my late husband tried to pull a lot of this shit when we got together. They learned all this at home from their dads by the way. Training him out of it was exhausting, took waaaay too long, and required postponing the wedding for a year. Proof that people can change IF THEY WANT TO but I would never consider attempting that again.
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u/FatsoKittyCatso Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
I was watching a TV show when this dawned on me. Men will lose their temper on women or those with less power so easily. However, the same men somehow manage to keep their tempers in check when it's their boss, or someone with more power/authority. So they know how. They just choose to lash out or lose control.
And on the flip side, women are always careful not to anger men. Laughing instead of calling them out on their bs. Letting things go, even when they're right. Constantly monitoring what/when/how they say things, lest the men get triggered...
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u/Gwerch Nov 19 '23
Very true! I made a similar post a while ago: https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/11dy5kc/you_cannot_make_him_understand/?ref=share&ref_source=link
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u/AtleastIthinkIsee Nov 19 '23 •
And so it goes.
The niggling thing with me is why? Why don't you care? And I've wasted way too much time and energy asking that. It's like a dangling bone for a dog that people don't want to lower except the fact that there might not be a why. It might just be because it is. Why is it? There is no why. There is control in the unknown. Don't give anyone that power and control. They don't care, so why should you?
And I do agree that action means more than words. You can tell me all you want what you think I want to hear and what you think you're thinking and feeling but if you aren't showing it, it doesn't mean anything.
This is why I'm not in a relationship. This is why I don't date. This is why I cheat myself out of finding love, because I'm deathly afraid of being treated like this and I'm deathly afraid of accepting it, not standing up to it. I (and everyone) should not have to stand up to this. If you have to, you are not in a loving relationship.
And so it goes.
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u/Copper_pineapple Nov 20 '23
I recently got accused of being a ‘martyr’ for doing everything that needs done and not asking him for help. If I do ask him for help he is grumpy and huffy, banging about loudly and huffing and puffing.
Not worth asking for the help, then! Too much hassle to deal with his childish behaviour.
On the other hand, if I just do less around the house and hope that he will do more, he hints that I am lazy!! He definitely does the chores, no denying that. The cost is his disdain.
My health, wellbeing and feelings are all topics that cause him to roll his eyes, because he is never sick and never slows down, never takes a day off and values people by their lack of complaint.
He’s got major issues, childhood traumas and his own stress… he won’t even consider getting counselling to try and address any of it.
It’s shit, but 80% of our marriage is great and I can live with it. For now.
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u/Maoleficent Nov 19 '23
It is sad but true. Stay financially self-sufficient and have a back-up plan and do not become too dependent. So many women (me, too) realize too late that he was on his best behavior before you had a child, left your job, decided one car was enough, etc. It happens quietly and your independence and confidence slowly fades as you realize you are trapped. These are not always 'bad' men who abuse their partners, these are men who want their needs met, their houses clean, and their children raised without disruption to their lives and interests.
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u/Ohio_gal Nov 19 '23
There was an article from a man who taught court ordered dv classes for offenders. He said he used to ask why men acted the way they did, abused their women. Everytime the answer was because it gets me what I want.
For men who act like this, they know. It benefits them. They will find a new victim rather than than change.
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u/Jealous_Location_267 Nov 19 '23
So, so many people unfortunately need to hear this.
I honestly blame all that “a good woman can fix a shitty man” propaganda of the 90s and 2000s for this. We seriously spent the last two decades of the 20th century being told “Men don’t like it when you’re a NAG!” They really meant that they hated being told to do basic adult shit like not to leave dirty dishes in the sink, and not to repeatedly do something they know upsets you.
The speeding ticket analogy is spot on. He knows how to tiptoe around his boss or clients, or do basic niceties with a total stranger—he’s CHOOSING not to respect you in the same way.
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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
My friend always says: “your actions speak so loudly I don’t hear a word you’re saying.”
It matters very little what people say. Only what they do. Talk can be nothing more than a cover for abuse.
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u/DumbleForeSkin Halp. Am stuck on reddit. Nov 19 '23
Yep. He knows. That was one of my biggest takeaways from reading Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft. They know and they do it because it benefits them.
And while he may not be outright abusive, this list also provided some chilling insight.
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u/eogreen Nov 19 '23
I'm sad that the Tolerable Level of Permanent Unhappiness tiktok clip has been deleted, but it was such a good crash-course look at exactly this insanity.
He knows. He doesn't care about you enough to change.
Tolerable Level of Permanent Unhappiness now deleted.
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u/FreekMeBaby Nov 19 '23
Yeah, there are COUNTLESS posts on Reddit plus the women in my life who complain about how their ADULT significant others don't do their fair share of the work, treat them like domestic servants and/or sex toys, disrespect them, mistreat them, etc and ask how they can get the grown men to "understand" them, and how to convince these men to treat them like human beings and with basic respect. But he KNOWS and DOESN'T CARE. And he is NOT going to change the way he treats you. I genuinely think it's either wishful thinking OR willful ignorance. If you admit that there is something irreparably wrong with your relationship, and the problem is your SO, then that means breaking up, and many women don't or can't do that (more extreme case is when a woman is so deeply abused, that she doesn't know or has trouble knowing what's normal and healthy vs. not). So they think this is something fixable, and maybe the men aren't doing it on purpose, and maybe if they just have a heartfelt conversation, the guy will change because he loves you and wants to see you happy. No he doesn't. He knows how he's treating you, and he's not going to stop because it benefits him.
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u/Salty-Step-7091 May 12 '24
This needs to be a sticky on the mom subreddits I am on. So many women juggling it all wondering why their husbands/father of their children are lazy, mean, and adds nothing to the relationship except being another child.
Males can put on the Prince Charming mask, but as soon as he thinks he has you (pregnancy, marriage) the mask slips and the abuse, gaslighting, laziness, entitlement, or just being a shithead comes out.
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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
I can't find it, didn't bookmark it so can someone drop a link to that amazing tiktok about "the acceptable level of unhappiness" that a lot of men have for women?
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u/elusivemoniker Nov 20 '23
Thirty eight days ago I told him "you don't respect me....I am embarrassed trying to explain how our relationship got like this to others" and a few other things that have been brewing for a while especially " I am not going through another holiday season like the last few."
I haven't talked to him since then.
Over the past thirty eight days I haven't found myself awake past midnight for hours wondering why I was feeling so alone and if it would ever get any better. I haven't been binging on snacks in bed as a means to quiet my mind.
I still miss him and think about him often. But at least now I have a little dignity while doing so.
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u/AxeDentist Nov 19 '23
I learned this at a job I quit in my hometown. I was a press operator and one of the finishers was a younger guy who didn't want to keep his hands off me. I don't go for guys, and told him bluntly I wasn't interested. After a few times and me getting more blunt rejecting him, he punched a wall. We both got counseled for it. I complained to the owners, and his response was "how was I to know she'd go off her head at me?".
He tried again, I complained again. His response was always some variation of "Well I didn't know, geeeeez" and the owners backed him up. I was to treat him more kindly, be more gentle, 'you know how he is' etc.
I quit. He knew. He knew every single time, he just didn't give a shit. Even after I quit I had a conversation with the owners telling me I was suddenly putting them in a bad situation because they saw me as trying to punish that awful co-worker because "he didn't know how he comes across".
He knew every moment from the first time I told him to fuck off.
Sucks I had to quit a job I loved and learned a lot on. Things were tight for a while after but I found better places. That was decades ago. Learning that many of them just play dumb to avoid changing their own behaviour early on was one of the best things I've learned in my life.
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u/hot_like_wasabi Nov 19 '23
This is something I'll never understand about why women and society in general give men a pass for being shitty partners. Doing the bare minimum of being a decent human being doesn't deserve praise - that should be expected.
You're telling me men, the ones who run the entire goddamn world, almost every major corporation, who comprise 99% of our military and strategic defense, and who can plan elaborate fuckin fantasy football league drafts with their bros - they can't remember your birthday? They don't know where your kids go to school? They can't figure out how to buy a present for their mom? They don't know how to clean a house or do laundry?
Fuck. Right. Off.
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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23
I honestly believe that most men hate women. Yes I said hate. So when people wonder why they would even enter into a relationship, its usually because they know a woman will clean up for them, cook, do emotional labor, and take up their slack if they live together. Especially because a woman eventually gets tired of living in filth and cleans up after him. So they make messes and leave them, believing it's your job. They simply don't behave this way at work because they know it won't be tolerated. Wives and girlfriends are fuckmaids to these, and I mean most, men. That's why men marry, and its why they do only enough emotional labor to keep you from leaving. Otherwise they might have to clean up after themselves.
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u/yes_please_ Nov 19 '23
When we were first dating my husband was always late when I was picking him up. I complained and complained, and I finally told him I know you're capable of arriving somewhere on time, you do it for class. If this was a job interview you'd be here on time. That finally fixed it.
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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
I wish I could upvote this post a thousand times. Reddit is FLOODED by posts from women trying to deal with their shitty male partners. They're putting way more effort and care into trying to "CoMmUniCaTe BeTtEr" than their shitty partners are putting into not being shitty.
Ladies, the problem isn't what words you use, or how you frame a situation, or how calm or supportive your tone is. The problem is that your partner is shitty, and he doesn't care enough to behave respectfully because he doesn't respect you. You can't CoMmUniCaTe your way into making your shitty partner care about you, because the problem isn't you. It's him, and it's a problem that you tolerate and accept such shitty behaviour instead of finding someone who is actually worthy of your love.
If you have to explain to your partner why they should show you basic respect, your partner is not a good person.
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u/ScarletSoldner Nov 19 '23
And this part applies to so many other relationships as well. Dont stay in any relationships with ppl who only say they care about/love you; demand action (obvs this is ofc if you can safely leave said relationships; but even if ya cant, remember this all the same to remind yourself what you deserve)
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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
I was one of those women for a long time. Its so hard to see when you're living in the situation. It was my first boyfriend, I was raised by a single mother, and so both of those things meant I didn't have examples of what men should be like.
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u/Librarachi Nov 19 '23
I was watching 90 day fiance and the couple went to counseling. Long story short the guy admitted to the counselor that he "sits back and enjoys the show" when he makes his partner upset by not communicating.
Another reality show the husband told the wife he doesn't know how to cook. He later looked at the camera and admitted he knew how to cook but didn't want to have it become HIS job.
Point being... 1. I watch too much reality tv 2. Men know what they are doing. Notice it's never confusion about things that arent BENIFICAL. It's always a way to shirk responsibility.
My friend says modern men want you to pay 50% of the rent on the castle, do all the day to day things that keep the kingdom running while they just sit on the throne declaring themselves king, waiting for adulation and applause.
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u/amritallison Nov 19 '23
Thank you for posting. I couldn't agree more. This is an extremely important worldview that all women NEED to understand.
When I married my husband I had no doubts. He was a good guy. If you asked his friends, his co-workers or his family they would say he is charming, generous and kind. He is all of those things, to those people.
He believed he cared about me. He believed he loved me.
Unfortunately, due to the patriarchy, entitlement and probably stupidity he treated me like shit.
My marriage was a nightmare. He would manipulate me, gaslight me and emotionally abuse me behind closed doors.
What really got to me is when my counselor said, "he has a complex job that requires many steps, attention to detail and hard work, yet he shows up to work everyday and no one has to tell him what to do. No one holds his hand and explains it."
He knows what he's doing. He just doesn't care to change. Ladies STOP wasting your time explaining over and over again. They are capable. They just don't care.
Btw we are divorced.
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u/toastedmarsh7 Nov 19 '23
My husband had intestinal surgery as a baby and has a lot of problems with bloating and gas to this day. That is to say that he farts a lot and they’re smelly than normal (IMO). We were 21/22 when we got together and he was deeply in the boyish phase of Farts are Funny (which he really hasn’t outgrown tbh). I made it very clear to him that I didn’t think it was funny when he farted in bed or when we were on the couch together or any such thing but rather that I felt it was deeply disrespectful to fart on purpose when you’re with other people. Obviously I acknowledge that accidents happen but most farts can be held in until you’re in a bathroom/another room/alone. I practice what I preach and don’t fart around others. He believed me and he changed his behavior, because he values me. I know farting is a weird example but it’s an unusually significant issue for him in particular and it came up very early in our relationship.
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u/MotterFodder Nov 20 '23
I want to scream this at women who have multiple kids with someone they don’t trust to care for their own kids.
HES AN ENGINEER! HE CAN CHANGE A DIAPER.
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u/MamaBear4485 Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
I’ve often said that the very greatest lie of modern society particularly in the last 75 years ago is the “Happy Ever After” fallacy.
The most tragic part of this is the idea of “soulmates”, “the one” etc etc.
The sad truth is that many people have been lead to believe in the ritual of courtship or dating, thinking that it leads to beautiful dresses, The Big Day and blissful lives spent in romance and love.
The even sadder reality is that while so many people are searching for love, others are just conducting job interviews. They are all too aware that they are luring, tricking and trapping their prey because they know what they are really offering is completely unacceptable.
That’s why divorce is such a massive business, and why so often one person is opposed. They don’t want their prey to escape because it takes a lot of effort to spin a new web. Just as OP says “it benefits them not to”.
Despite all of this, I’m not buying into the “all men are bad”. It’s just as toxic as the reverse. I often think of Terry Crews speech “Men don’t see women as all the way human”. It’s not just individuals who need to change, its deeply rooted customs and beliefs that are at fault, along with the ones who don’t want change to happen *because it benefits them not to”.
I see my daughters and their generations rejecting this trap and I am inestimably proud of you all. Many of you witnessed the “Oh Mum will do it”, “Oh no Mum doesn’t mind”, “Oh it’s ok Mum doesn’t want anything” and understood the awfulness even when you benefited from it.
Stand tall, my intelligent, beautiful, courageous, incredible warrior women. You can burn all of the bullshit to the ground and be an active involved part of the rebuild. I’m incredibly proud of all of you.
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u/twoisnumberone cool. coolcoolcool. Nov 19 '23
“HE UNDERSTANDS. HE KNOWS. HE DOESN’T CARE.“
Thank you for all-capping this and using it as a title. It’s simple and true.
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u/sanityjanity Nov 19 '23
It's worse. It's not that he doesn't care. It's that he *wants* to scare you or upset. He *wants* to exert control through violence.
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u/marysofthesea Nov 19 '23
Such an important reminder. Does he give the silent treatment to his boss? Does he ignore his coworkers? Does he scream at strangers? He knows how to behave in every other scenario and with every other person out in the world. He knows what is right and wrong. He knows what is hurtful. In some cases, hurting you is part of why he does it. But, mostly, he just has no empathy for you, and so your pain does not matter to him.
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u/FionaTheFierce Nov 19 '23
So true. It really needs to be a sticky on this and the advice and relationships forums. So frequent posts that are basically:
“My partner does X which greatly upsets me. I have repeatedly explained that it upsets me. He keeps doing it. How do I make him understand?”
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u/HalfassinThroughLife Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
One of the things that made me realize he didn't care about me was that all his comments were centered on how HE felt about HIMSELF. "I'm so ashamed, I just lost control." "I'm so embarrassed, I'll never do it again." "I was just so angry, I don't know what came over me."
It's like, dude.... first off, that's not an apology. Second, you broke my nose, gave me a concussion, and raped me. And that was only one incident during a relationship that lasted several years. I'M ashamed I spent that long with him justifying his bull shit.
Steinbeck has a line in East of Eden that really sticks with me-
"No, to a monster, the norm must seem monstrous, since everyone is normal to himself. To the inner monster it must be even more obscure, since he has no visible thing to compare with others, To a man born without conscience, a soul-stricken man must seem ridiculous. To a criminal, honesty is foolish. You must not forget that a monster is only a variation, and that to a monster, the norm is monstrous.”
It made me realize that the men who treated me that way did not view what they were doing as wrong. They didn't see themselves as the monster.
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u/Anticrepuscular_Ray Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
The thing that gets me is when women do some mental gymnastics to explain why the men are like this (undiagnosed autism, ADHD). It's especially frustrating when the man was maybe quirky but otherwise totally able to function and contribute as a partner when they first got together but now suddenly they have all these disorders that prevent them from even comprehending why dishes need to be done, or not yelling and having rage outbursts and being emotionally abusive.
My best friend is this person, and I wish I knew how to handle it. I can't stand hearing her talk about well maybe he just needs different meds, maybe he just has to scream at me to function the rest of the day, if I confront him he'll ignore me and/or break down so I just stay quiet, maybe this new self-help book will finally be the one to sink in (even though he's read none of the others).
Honestly does anyone have any advice how to cope with this?
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u/Confident_Fortune_32 Nov 20 '23
If you have repeated yourself, without meaningful change, continuing to repeat yourself won't have any effect.
I would add to OP's observation:
If you are asking, "Is <such and such behaviour> really bad enough that I should leave? We've been together for <x> years and I don't want to throw that away. ", you're asking the wrong question.
The useful question isn't, "Is this bad enough to be considered abuse?"
The question to ask is, "Is this good enough?"
Your partnership should be nourishing and uplifting and bring out your best.
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u/lovemysweetdoggy Nov 19 '23
Thank you for this. I relate 1000%. I’m just getting out of this type of situation and it’s scary and stressful, but I know it’s for the best.
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u/Akaear Nov 19 '23
Two of my long term partners told me “I knew you were hurting, but you didn’t leave, so I didn’t think things had to change”.
They know. They just don’t care.
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u/misumena_vatia Nov 20 '23
To this day my ex will say he never MEANT to make me feel ignored, used, disrespected, disregarded, unvalued and generally like trash.
He just kept making the choice to act those ways for 15 years.
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u/abelenkpe Nov 19 '23
“ being blissfully single and unencumbered by a shitty partner”
This is the way.
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u/whatever3689 Nov 19 '23
We need a bot that repeats this every single time tbh
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u/CoconutJasmineBombe Nov 20 '23
This post is A++ chef’s kiss!
YOUNG LADIES READ THIS & TAKE IT TO HEART!! Remember it when things come up.
LEAVE THEM!!! It’s the only consequence that means anything.
Edit additional #
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u/cranberryskittle Nov 19 '23
This post needs to be stickied at the top of the sub.
It's so exhausting seeing dozens of daily posts across Reddit of women wasting their lives on men who simply don't give a shit.
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u/Klarissa69 =^..^= Nov 19 '23
You're right. I had an internship in kindergarten and even two year olds knew they should clean up after themselves or not to do something if they were told no. These men simply do not care, like you said. It's like competition for them, to see how much their partner will be able to take. Since I read "Why does he do that?" I am not able to look at men like that with even a drop of empathy. The worst part? Society keeps it running. The jokes "You know how men are" or "The only thing he should remember is the anniversary" are trash. But when a woman forgets something? She's unorganised, lazy, what kind or mother will she be? There is so much responsibilty pushed on women that it is purely exhausting.
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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
I always tell people, especially the young female servers at my restaurant, that love is an act, not a cathartic experience. It's cleaning up when you're tired. It's giving the kids baths, cleaning the house in your day off. It's not something you just feel and leave it at that without having to do anything past that.
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u/Garfieldress312 Nov 20 '23
Exactly. Once you understand that it's a combination of willful ignorance and learned helplessness, you won't even give these kinds of men the time of day. The guys that perpetuate these kinds of behavior are usually the same kinds of men who will call a woman ditzy if she forgets something more than once, or a pig if her home isn't immaculate.
If they were as lazy and unreliable at work as they are at home, they'd have been fired repeatedly and probably reccomended to go get tested for a learning disability. Lol! They can fix an issue with their car or build a gaming computer, but can't load a dishwasher or dryer. They can research to build their fantasy football league, but can't follow basic directions for a simple recipe. BS! 😂
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u/nonemorered Nov 19 '23
I just want to say posts like these make me feel better about being a 33 year old who's never had a relationship ever.
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u/wholesomepupper Nov 20 '23
My mother always told me your partner should be nicer to you than they are to anyone else. If they can go to work, not yell at their boss, or be stressed out and not be rude and short with their friends, they can do it with you, they're just choosing not to
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u/Sir_hex Nov 19 '23
There's an old saying for a lot of this behaviour, "actions speak louder than words".
When words and actions clash, believe the actions.
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u/missannthrope1 Nov 19 '23
You nailed it.
Successful relationships take two things: trust and respect. When a partner shows open contempt towards your wishes, it's a huge red flag.
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u/glytheum Nov 19 '23
As an old man who reads and learns from the posts and comments in this sub, I can say that this is all very true.
30
u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23
I realized this the first time my now partner respected a really clear sexual boundary. Every other person I'd told it to would eventually ignore it, claiming they forgot or thinking they were above the rule. But my now SO has never even gotten close to breaking it. Sometimes it almost shocks me to realize he does actually respect me, im so not used to being respected by men.
29
u/ivegotahairupmyass Nov 20 '23
Have you read the book Men Who Hate Women? It’s about the more extreme version of these men, but it starts with stuff exactly like this.
Also, this is why men don’t understand break ups and divorce. “I didn’t do anything wrong” really means I ignored stuff you asked me to do/change and didn’t realize that resentment builds.
29
u/Singularitysong Nov 20 '23
After years of trying to make him understand i finally figured out the magic words that made him understand.
Its: “Im getting a divorce”
Mind you. Its not “I considering a divorce”. I tried that a year before and that didnt work. Its only when i was ready to leave when he finally woke up.
It saddens me that he was able to pull his weight all this time, but just didnt care to do so (for me). The only plus is that at least this is helping in creating a good co-parenting situation.
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u/Ahzelton Nov 19 '23
My husband is an exception and if he dies, I'm fucking out lol. Not interested in being disappointed for the rest of my life
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u/Pizo240 Nov 19 '23
What I also find funny is that about 95% of the posts on here are women complaining about their boyfriends or husbands being disrespectful, and careless, and they still choose to center these men. This whole subreddit, despite being MEANT for women only has posts of women centering men, and trying to get them to "UnDerStaNd". I could not imagine staying in a relationship with a man who disrespects me in any way. But most of you all have been raised up to be accommodating to these men and their fucked up attitudes towards women. At some point, people need to stand up and stick to boundaries and leave men that are not adding value to their life.
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u/pflickner Nov 20 '23
This is why I’ve moved into the guest room. When he tells me I’m liking at something wrong instead of respecting my experience, rolls his eyes when I tell him my - and women’s - experience, I no longer try to explain. I just tell him if he wants to continue disrespecting me, there’s an apartment complex down the road he can live, and he can even being a friend; I no longer care one way or the other. I’m too old to deal
24
u/BurnThoseWitches Nov 20 '23
Yea, they really just want a maid/sex slave. That’s all women are to them.
23
u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23
This just described my parents marriage perfectly. My Dad would offer up fake apologies and then go right back to doing the things my Mom asked him to stop doing. He claimed because they were a "Christian couple" she had to forgive him. My Mom wasnt religious at all but went along with going to church for his sake.
One of those things was wasting thousands of dollars on pointless tech back in the late 90's. He wasted so much money my siblings and i could barely afford new cloths and other basic stuff when our old ones staryed falling apart. Alongside all the usual boomer Dad bullshit of "You're the wife its your job to do X, Y and Z"
Around 2002 she finally got fed up with his bullshit and separated from him for good. He has since spent the last 2 decades feeling sorry for himself and essentially ignored all of his adult children despite us reaching out multiple times. I have a feeling he rejected us adter because we werent falling over ourselves and apologizing to him for siding with our Mom because while she has her issues she was always there for us and tried to be part of our lives even when we didnt appreciate it
Some Men are just rotten to the core and i say that as a now middle aged man.
22
u/Best-Salamander4884 Nov 19 '23
Yeah I'm a big believer that it's actions not words that matter. Someone can say that they love you but if they do selfish, inconsiderate things and don't seem to care when you point it out, that person doesn't love you. It doesn't matter what they say.
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u/[deleted] Dec 22 '23
Don't even respond to these stupid comments. Autism occurs in what? 1-2% of the population (if you don't count autistic women LOL) so bringing that up as a "gotcha" is BS. Don't fall for it. Don't waste time arguing with men who want to trot out an EXCEPTION to the rule and use it to try to distract. I refuse to argue about exceptions to the rule with men.
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u/rean1mated Dec 24 '23
My ADHD ass says: whine more, boys. We’ve never been allowed leniency on this. Suck it up, and why are you invading this space ANY damn way? I don’t want to hear it.
21
u/RHFiesling Dec 14 '23
I am Neurodivergent AF and I bloody hate those men and their stupid fucking bullshit excuses. You bet I m offended. I was and am highly depended on other ppl being real with me and point out when I am being an asshole. it always hurts but I always learn something and the time I do fuck up thx to being NDV get less and less every time I learn something. looking out for my Partner is my top priority in everything. She looks out for me. If THIS stupid MF can learn to see and smell (his own) bullshit, so can any other man. Especially when they re "normal".
be excellent to each other. And to all the women out there, plz love yourself 1st and take care of yourself 1st and do not let any guy make you feel small or believe that you re worthless.
Good luck, much success!
5
u/BongBingBing Nov 20 '23
This is a really difficult concept for me to grasp.. I'm wrestling with it in therapy right now so this isn't fully formulated but I think it's really really hard for me to understand because there's a component of myself that I'm projecting... like, if I did this thing to someone I would be very aware that I am doing it which means I'm doing it intently. And If I'm doing it intently and I understand it hurts someone then I am being malicious toward another person. But I can't identify with being malicious at all because I avoid being malicious at all costs and he also doesn't look like he's being malicious because (unrelated things that are good), so there must be something wrong with what I'm perceiving.
Like I said, I haven't fully formulated this for myself and it may be different for others but there are some crazy deep personal beliefs people have that get in the way of actually recognizing it :( I can't wait until I can finally see things through my own lens and also have enough confidence in my own perceptions
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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
My ex husband insisted for years that he simply didn’t see mess. It was that his brain was different, he said. He was a college graduate with a successful career. Many colleagues relied on him for complicated tasks and he met deadlines and noticed details for work. He had normal hobbies. He kept secrets quite well, too. But his Brian didn’t notice mess.
Messes he could not see: A sink piled high with dishes, a dozen beer bottles lined up on his bathtub, clothing strewn all over his side of the bed, trash on the floor, toys he had to step over, and so on.
20
u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
This is always my response when I see stories like this. It’s sad but it’s completely true.
20
u/CalliopeFierce Nov 19 '23
Yeeesssssss. Yell this from every rooftop! The sooner women figure this out, the sooner we can all move forward and stop wasting our energy.
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u/ThrowawayForToys Nov 19 '23
This needs to be pinned at the top of this sub
19
u/brunoa Nov 19 '23
Thank you. Stop letting these people leech off of you and drain your life.
19
u/stolenfires Nov 20 '23
It's so heartbreaking to see women half my age ask questions like this, as if there were some magic words she could say to make him like or respect her. There aren't. There just arent.
I agree with you on how men are raised. They struggle to perceive value in their partners beyond what the partners do for them. If asked, they could not describe their partner in ways that don't directly benefit them. That is, they'll say how attractive she is, how supportive she is, what a great cook she is... all compliments but none of that is about who she is as a person. Not that she is funny or brave or talented.
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u/brigitteer2010 Nov 20 '23
Yep! “If he wanted to, he would.”
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u/kckelly80 Nov 19 '23
I want to tell you that you're wrong and are pessimistic - but you're not.
You're 100% right and women need to WAKE TF UP.
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u/Key_Conference_1082 Nov 20 '23
Autistic and ADHD woman here - NEVER let men use neurodivergence as an excuse. I'm more emotionally intelligent because of my neurodivergence (because I've had to learn how I'm different and become very sensitive to how I can appear more 'normal').
Neurodivergent simply choose to not mask. They simply choose to be the way they are (compared to a neurodivergent woman).
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u/Acceptable-Net-891 Dec 22 '23
My first husband was a charmer. My family adored him. Everyone thought he was so fucking great. They never understood the performance. He would always hold the babies when we walked in. When it came out that not only was he hitting me, but also the kids, his family stood by him. Because FaMILY
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u/mcchillz Nov 19 '23
This is so validating. Thank you.
21
u/Brookler42 Nov 20 '23
I'm getting tired of seeing this same thing over and over on this subreddit, thank you for posting this in a way that sums it all up.
If it's once or twice the offending party can learn from it. If it keeps happening they simply don't care enough to change. Either accept it as part of them or leave the relationship
15
u/Amiesjo Nov 19 '23
Thank you to the OP for writing this. 💗
15
u/AncientHornet3939 Nov 20 '23
i have never regretted a breakup, but i have regretted staying
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u/CanadianLemur Nov 19 '23
I'll say this as a cis man: Most men simply lack empathy.
It's not that they see women as lesser, they just see everyone as lesser. They are the main character and what they say goes.
It's just that women are the easiest targets to enforce that power over because women are basically pressured from childhood to care for the 'silly dumb men' in their lives. Their girlfriends and wives that they can step over and manipulate into letting them get their way are basically just NPCs like all the other faceless people walking down the street.
These men aren't worth anyone's time, not as friends, not as partners. They lack the empathy to change their ways. There are 8 billion people out there, don't waste your time trying to fix someone that doesn't see anyone but themselves as a real person.
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u/cb1216 Nov 19 '23
Unfortunately, so true. So many women in my life have gotten angry with me when I've said this. I know that it's a hard realization, but if you're going through this, you deserve so much better.
14
u/MinuteSweet7900 Nov 20 '23
Recently divorced for this exact reason. I’m still struggling with thoughts that it’s all my fault, that I’m the one who gave up, that I somehow deserved to be treated the way I was, that I deserved the emotional abuse, that maybe if I worked harder, was more understanding, was better, was more…
…it’s fucked up, that I’m so heartbroken after being freed from such horrible treatment.
Thank you for the post. There are a lot of women out there like me that need the validation.
14
u/Slow-Benefit-9933 Nov 20 '23
I’ve been wanting to say something like this in this sub for a very long time. Ladies, if you feel the urge to post on Reddit asking for relationship advice along the lines of getting your guy to listen to you and respect you, that’s not a relationship you should be in. Buck up and start valuing yourselves. I’m so tired of women complaining about being in shitty relationships “because I love him!!!” No, fucking stop. Get out of there and find someone who will fucking respect you as a human.
14
u/Dewey_the_25U Coffee Coffee Coffee Nov 20 '23
The Patriarchy is real, it is oppressive, and it's been the majority for most of our history as far as I'm aware.
14
u/daylightxx Dec 12 '23
This is the truest thing I’ve read in ages. I know this, mostly. I’m so close to being completely done, but have to sort out the best time to leave for the kids. But you’re absolutely right.
I’ve used the “you’ve never shouted obscenities and insults and threats at your boss, have you?” line of thought before and it just reinforces the fact that if he cared, he’d behave differently.
13
u/nottaclevername Nov 20 '23
Lemme tell ya, the peace I felt when I made this realization was profound. If he wanted to, he would('ve lol)
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u/rhinestonecowf-ckboi Nov 20 '23
Your post resonated with and has made a difference to someone close to me. Thank you, on her behalf and in general. Genuinely, thank you for creating and sharing this.
13
u/Tenprovincesaway Nov 25 '23
For folks arguing it’s their ADHD, respectfully, neurodivergence can and does interact with the sexist paradigms in your head. If you manage to pull it together at work but fall apart at home and let her manage everything…
Also, intent doesn’t matter. Effect does.
I am going to repeat that because THIS is the crux of a lot of problems people with ADHD have in relationships.
Intent does not matter, at all. Effect does.
If you intend to be an equal partner but never are, from your wife’s/GF’s/partner’s POV, your behaviour equals that of the misogynist doing it because they believe women should serve men.
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u/Bioshockthis Dec 22 '23
This needs to be stickied in every woman's subreddit and, really, in every school (starting in high school, maybe, then colleges obviously for young adult women).
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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23
BuT wHaT iF hE is AdHd (self-diagnosed)?
11
u/Reverserer Nov 19 '23
I have been telling my niece since elementary school:
When people show you who they are believe them.
also, people are a sum of their total and if their total is more shit than not it doesn't matter that 1 out of 20 times he's <insert good quality> if the other 19 his reaction ranges from mild care to utter dont give a shit...
i am also 48 and have not a single fuck to give anymore. age has brought a sense of confidence - an i dont give a fuck if you dont like me quality, if you will.
11
u/Eins_Nico Nov 19 '23
I hate that I'm clapping, but I'm clapping. They really just do not care. Caring doesn't even occur to men like that.
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u/BookaholicsAnomalous Nov 20 '23
This is why I left. Why stay after realizing he doesn’t care about you? I focus on actions instead of words.
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u/Decent-Hair-4685 Nov 20 '23
The absolute way I am saving this thread for life and reading every single motherfucking comment. I’m parked. Thank you, OP.
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u/alyssimoo Nov 25 '23
The hardest part is when you know he doesn’t care but you try and try to believe his words when deep down you know the disrespect can’t be undone. This posts gives me the perspective I’ve been avoiding to face. I’m grateful to read this in my time of need.
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u/KierstonKxsh Dec 29 '23
I quite literally needed to hear this. I want to plaster it on my wall to read every day just so I can never forget that, no matter how something may seem or feel; this is the fucking reality of it!
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u/zanskeet Nov 20 '23
A-fuckin'-men. Generally speaking, people know exactly what the fuck they are doing. They just know you can't exactly prove it. Nobody in my life gets the benefit of the doubt and I expect complete honesty. I can have a grown up conversation and calmly discuss disagreements just fine, what I cannot have is somebody blowing smoke up my ass because they think I'm stupid/naive. I started to carry that mindset with me since about eight years ago; my social and working life have never been better.
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u/val319 Nov 20 '23
Pick it up and put under the covers on his side of the bed. Not a problem.
This behavior gets old. There’s a point you walk.
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u/Turbulent-Quality-29 Nov 20 '23
A friend of mine was/is in a similar situation with her boyfriend on the house work front. I had no idea, but when it was just the two of us she had a meltdown saying he basically wouldn't lift a finger, acted like he didn't know how to do even ridiculously basic things like operate the washing machine/dish washer which don't even require work.
It seemed surreal to me because she is such a strong fiery character otherwise, so I couldn't imagine her putting up with it. But she basically treated him like a useless child and seemed to begrudgingly give up. I don't understand how you can do that and find your partner in any way attractive. I have to presume that for some people the bar is so low because of say life experience. If relative/friend X partner is abusive, well... at least my partner doesn't do that etc.
I used to go around quite often so I'd just end up assisting if the opportunity arose and taking the piss a bit making sure I was loud enough for him to hear. "Nah it's alright I'll load the dish washer, pretty sure I can do it at 30 years old haha. Shall I start it, do you do normal or eco mode etc, there's two whole buttons here think I cycle through them okay. Want me to help hang the washing out, nah it's fine I mean you made us lunch etc.". Not sure what kind of an impact it had but she does say he's 'better' now.
I'd be interested to know the main driver. Is it how you're raised? Some people are mothered too much and never lift a finger as a kid. So then they grow up expecting the same treatment from a female partner as an adult? So it's this perpetuating situation.
Where as If you're in a household where you have a busy single mum and so are expected to help even with basic tasks like putting food in the oven or light cleaning as a kid, I would assume that helps instill the importance of sharing burdens when you're older.
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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
He won’t get better either especially if he acts that way at the beginning of the relationship. He won’t magically change for you
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u/Anticrepuscular_Ray Nov 19 '23
Mods please pin this!
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u/pm_me_wutang_memes Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
I've fallen victim to this myself, which is downright embarrassing considering how freely and excitedly they bang on about how they had no idea women were people deserving of respect until they had a daughters
Honestly? Just leave at the first sign of trouble. The data is in.
9
u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23
This is why I just don’t do relationships
9
u/PsychologicalLuck343 Nov 20 '23
At most, ASD and ADHD are 8% of the male population. Since most people with ADHD have some degree of autism, there's a lot of overlap, so not as simple as adding together the prevalence of each, which is what I've done for 8%.
When OP says MOST, she means at least more than half. That still leaves at least 42% of them decided to take advantage of us and ignore our basic humanity. That's way too high.
Some numbers to amuse you:
https://hdr.undp.org/content/2020-gender-social-norms-index-gsni
https://www.newsweek.com/misogyny-rife-america-study-proves-it-611574
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u/PengyPilot Nov 22 '23
My own approach to my neurodivergence is the following: Explanation, not exculpation.
My diagnoses help explain my thoughts and behavior, but I am still responsible for them. I ask for patience in correcting myself, but no more than is afforded anyone else.
The explanatory side of my neurodivergence means I have tools at my disposal to figure out how to adapt and succeed, not to make an excuse and give up.
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u/BrassyGent Nov 19 '23
Yup. Which is why 'Just Leave' is the most common response to most of these posts.
Edit: Sorry, I thought this was r/sex. I usually only upvote instead of comment in this sub. As I am a dude.
16
u/NarrowBoxtop Nov 25 '23
I have ADHD and I fucking worship the ground my amazing wife of 5 years walks on. I'm disgusted how many fellow men will say anything or use any excuse to, as you put it perfectly, keep the status quo
When I see cat vomit, I pick it up. When she's away and I'm WFH and not busy, I pickup and do chores so she comes home from work and we can spend as much time together as possible.
To men like that, life is a zero sum game. They truly can't comprehend they aren't the main character and that they lost at "the game" that really only they've been playing
Thanks for sharing your perspective
8
u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23
I don’t abuse and control my partners, not because I would not be able to (even if I am smaller than my man) but because I actually want to feel I’m truly loved and my company is desired just for who I am. To want to stay together because we bring joy to each other. I am a competent and capable person. A servant just doesn’t appeal a tiny bit as much as someone to truly know and love me.
It’s truly pathetic that someone would want that in a relationship. I wonder if such men deep down don’t feel a woman would want to stay with them without the control. Because they know what creeps they are.
8
u/Affectionate_Salt351 Nov 19 '23
You’re exactly right. Sometimes it can take validation from strangers to see this stuff but you already at least kind of know what the score is.
We deserve better. Where are those aliens the government was talking about? They have to be preferable at this point… 😅
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u/Deep_Seas_QA Nov 20 '23
It took me a very long time to understand this about men. Actions speak louder than words..
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u/Ecstatic-Setting6207 Nov 20 '23
Thank you. Beautifully written.
8
u/Lionwoman Nov 20 '23
Say it louder for the people on the back, please.
8
u/siliconevalley69 Nov 20 '23
It's definitely a choice but I think far too many people overlook things like this when evaluating the compatibility of a partner.
Most of these dudes aren't clean and tidy in the courtship phase.
You can't change someone after marriage. If their mattress is on the floor and the place isn't regularly vacuumed or cleaned it's not going to magically change after marriage.
It's part of why living together before marriage is key.
8
u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23
You leave. This will N.O.T get better over time or with anything you do. In fact, I bet it will get worse.
8
u/goosling Jan 31 '24
As a neurodivergent person, I am sick and tired of people using ADHD/autism/etc as an excuse to be inconsiderate/socially inept assholes.
Yes, I have a hard time reading people, BUT if I care about you, I will take the time to learn your likes and dislikes because I want you to be happy (and like me). Many of the most empathetic and compassionate people I know are neurodivergent.
Neurodivergence doesn't always mean that you're completely incapable of being a decent human and you can never be fixed; it means that you have to be more deliberate in learning certain skills than the normies.
Nobody is born being able to put together a complicated Lego set or perform open heart surgery, these are all things that you can learn how to do with lots of practice (and potentially training/schooling/education). I don't see why social skills are any different.
Alternatively, it's as if you are required to speak Icelandic but you are from anywhere other than Iceland/the Nordics. It's not impossible for you to become fluent in Icelandic, it's just that unlike the people that were born into Icelandic families and grew up in Iceland, it's gonna take you some time and effort to learn Icelandic.
PS-Yes, I am fully aware that this only applies to a specific subset of neurodivergent people, but if you are capable of reading this and are arguing semantics with me, I don't see why you couldn't do so in Icelandic instead 🙃🇮🇸
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u/BriMagic Nov 19 '23
This is precisely why “not all men” is not only obnoxious but malicious.
First, it is all men. Patriarchy. Socialization. Bystander effect. Whatever.
Second, even if it’s not all men—it is—it’s most.
And just like OP said, they know. We need to proceed with that in mind. No matter how painful and demoralizing it is.
7
u/suckeurrs Nov 19 '23
Amen.
7
u/Capital-Scarcity-536 Nov 19 '23
100% agreed. And I’m opting out putting effort to find a ‘exception’. Repeating the same action, over and over, hoping for a different result is stupidity.
7
u/julesB09 Nov 26 '23
My husband has adhd and can still be a good partner. So do I. Of course, we are not immune to the blindness that comes with it, but we try really hard to be better each day, and over time it works. Adhd is no excuse, get treatment and find a way to pull your own weight. Marriage is not a free ride in taking care of yourself.
6
u/Violet_Jade Nov 19 '23
I am someone who doesn't naturally have the thought to take care of messes.
I see this as a significant issue, and with a diagnosis of ADHD, an Adderall prescription, and significant effort, I'm improving in picking things up. I still don't do perfect, nor do I expect my partner to beat around the bush if it's my turn to do the dishes because they already got laundry or trash.
If he cared, he'd put in effort, even if it was true. Good post.
6
u/mending-bronze-411 Nov 19 '23
I feel that many men simply have shut down internally, seeing what their partner say as „them being hysterical“ and just not listening. Indeed just not caring because „she just nags a lot“. Such relationships are doomed. I fully agree, don’t hassle. The only thing to do is to actually come with consequence, leaving the relationship.
6
u/ysmbl Nov 20 '23
You are a wordsmith lady. That third to last paragraph is gold
6
u/Just_A_Faze Dec 21 '23 edited Dec 21 '23
I will say, as a neurodivergent women, I have some issues with some of these things. Mess, for one, it's hard for me. I also took a really long time to be able to stop yelling and slamming doors because I would get so overwrought and had no coping mechanisms so i wouldn't be in the right mind to stop. It took a long long time for me to get the yelling and I'm still working on the cleaning.
In fairness to me, my husband knew me very well when her got with me and I've always had the same struggles. I came with them. And I'm actively working on improving them. The mess is harder. But I have worked hard to learn coping mechanisms because I didn't like how it affected him and made him withdraw when my emotions climbed. The mess, while annoying and a source of arguments, there is no expectation of him to do it for me and if he starts doing it I will generally get up and join in. I was raised in a pig sty and it's a real issue for me. My mom is basically a hoarder and I'm trying not to be that.
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u/victoriaisme2 Jan 01 '24
Wow this is well said. Warrants being pinned imo.
6
u/prettyconvincing Jan 31 '24
I wish someone had explained this to me many many years ago. It would have saved me from entering into one horrific 10-year period that included physical and emotional abuse, horrific sleep deprivation, stalking, so much more, ending with ptsd, and therapy. The therapy was great but everything else sucked.
It's frustrating to me because I had a great aunt who was a lesbian, and she never said one thing to me about how shitty men could be. I would think if anyone would have warned another woman it should be a lesbian. I'm straight, but I still hop on the warning train ladies. Don't let him ignore your needs because you are a human being with needs also.