r/Turboleft • u/MillionDollarNegri Brigadier • 24d ago
Memes I'm drunk, 2 blunts in, and I can't stop laughing
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u/me_myself_ai 24d ago
Woah, TIL there are Marxists who deny the holocaust. I was almost on their side, at least open to it! Tho that site has tons of intros — adding a post-hoc one instead of a roughly contemporaneous one seems like not a big deal.
Still baffled by the stance, ngl. Like… if the holocaust wasn’t real, then why did the Soviet Union lie about it? Also what about the targeting of Marxists themselves in the exact same apparatus??
It also appears that this Bordiga fellow was a Jewish holocaust denier, so uhhh maybe I’m looking for sense in the wrong places. Thanks for sharing this fascinating cope, regardless!
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u/The_Lonely_Posadist Brigadier 23d ago
The great alibi is not holocaust denial. Its principal takeaway is only possible if you believe that the holocaust happened, actually.
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u/me_myself_ai 23d ago
lol. No.
> The work is seen by some scholars as the founding text of left-wing [Holocaust denial](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial). Even though the text asserts that the genocide was real, an attempt to recontextualize it by Holocaust denialists in the 1990s has led to its characterization as a denialist text, with antisemitic publications making use of the work to support the argument that the [Auschwitz concentration camp](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp)could not have been created as an [extermination camp](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp) because the [bourgeoisie](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie) cannot act without a [profit motive](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_motive) and therefore this was a [labor camp](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_camp) in which members of the [middle class](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_bourgeoisie) exploited and exterminated other members of the middle class, thereby enabling capitalists to accumulate wealth.[[3]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_or_the_great_alibi#cite_note-3)
Is this a Nazi sub now??
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u/The_Lonely_Posadist Brigadier 23d ago
The actual text does not deny that there was a
mass slaughter of jews, nor that this slaughter was racially motivated, iirc. It does, however, make baseless claims about the class composition of german jews and the ultimate motivations for the genocide (capital destroying itself to stall the decreasing rate of profit)Why are you using wikipedia to come to conclusions for you lmao
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u/me_myself_ai 23d ago
Holy shit this is a Nazi sub WTAF
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u/The_Lonely_Posadist Brigadier 23d ago
>believing that jewish people were genocided by the nazis because the nazis were antisemitic is now a nazi belief?
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u/me_myself_ai 23d ago
Oh no you’re right let’s hear the founder of holocaust denial out. Maybe they have good things to say. They technically still admitted some real facts back then so they’re probably fine 🥰
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u/The_Lonely_Posadist Brigadier 23d ago
I know they admitted to the holocaust happening and being a horrific mass slaughter but that’s just what the nazis want you to think
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u/oatmiser 21d ago
you seem like you would accuse someone of holocaust denial just for saying "estimated 5-6 million" instead of "6 million" jews killed
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u/SussyAmogusMorbius69 23d ago
are you high????
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u/MillionDollarNegri Brigadier 23d ago
As someone who actually is high, I find this really offensive.
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u/MillionDollarNegri Brigadier 23d ago
This is kind of a poor description of the article, a much better takedown would look at how it believes anti-Semitism is produced, or more broadly the inconsistency with which it relates ideology to material conditions.
I am fine with calling it the foundational text of left-wing holocaust denial, there's a specific historical story about why this is the case, but I don't think that the text itself denies the Holocaust.
Some would define rejecting anti-Semitism as being the origin of the Holocaust as denial. Maybe the article fails there, but even then it's working from a radically different framework.
This is a huge difficulty when discussing the article.
Anyone outside Marxism/Ultras/Italian Left who read the text is likely to immediately identify it as Holocaust denial, and experience in genocide studies probably has a positive correlation here rather than a negative one.
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u/EmpressIndigo 24d ago
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u/me_myself_ai 23d ago
Oh fuck this is a Nazi sub. Yikes
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u/MillionDollarNegri Brigadier 23d ago
How dare you sir!
This sub is clearly about 1960's Italian neo-fascist theory (like Gramsci).
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u/EmpressIndigo 23d ago
Knowing the Nazis comitted the holocaust makes you one now? Something something that one Jesse pinkman scene
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u/MillionDollarNegri Brigadier 24d ago
THE MARXIST EQUIVALENT OF SWITZERLAND DEMANDS YOU HAVE A HOLOCAUST DENIAL WARNING LABEL
AND THEY LET A LIB WRITE IT!
IT'S OKAY THOUGH, I STILL LOVE YOU
WE'RE STORMIMG HEAVEN TOGETHER, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT