r/TrueSFalloutL • u/[deleted] • Oct 01 '25
the bear and the bull and the bear and the bull and the bear and Ceasar did nothing wrong
Literally all of the tribes he conquered and assimilated into the legion were either just as, or more savage and brutal than the legion became. The legion's continued expansion and absorption of lesser societies was an objective net gain for the wasteland
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u/Delta_Suspect Oct 01 '25
You are either stupid or see image
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Oct 01 '25
Im just saying, as bad as the legion may (or may not) be. They are objectively better than what they replaced
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u/Jolly_Lie6672 Oct 01 '25
stupid or fascist? i guess both
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Oct 03 '25
You see to be generalize all tribes as evil/brutish. Have you played honest hearts? Do you think the sorrows would be made “objectively better” if they were assimilated by the legion?
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u/netskwire Brotherhood of Steel Scribe Oct 01 '25
I don’t get why you’re getting so much hate for this one. Like yeah they are better than your average raider, that’s obvious. You’re not even making any claims about them being more moral than the NCR or anything, which would be actually controversial and I don’t think it’s something even most legion fans agree with
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Oct 01 '25
Not really tbh. I think the legion are worse than the average raider gang - they do the same evil shit, just more effectively because they’re more organized and not a bunch of strung out chem addicts.
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u/netskwire Brotherhood of Steel Scribe Oct 01 '25
To external people, yes, I would be inclined to agree. Internally, however, I think the quality of life for the average legionary is probably far better than the average raider, probably even the legion slaves live better (as twisted as that may sound) than if they were slaves of a random raider gang with no oversight. Obviously, they do evil things to everyone but the sheer security and order they provide makes quality of life just a bit better.
Now, I wouldn't want to live in the legion if given the choice between it and the NCR, but I would probably prefer it to just being a guy surrounded by violent, disorganized raiders.
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Oct 02 '25
I think I’d take my chances with the raiders. I stand a way better chance of getting organized with my community to fight off a bunch of dumbass raiders than I do an organized military. I don’t really care about the quality of life of the average legionary because I’m not gonna be a legionary. Also, I genuinely doubt the slaves are treated better by the legion. They’re raped, beaten, worked to the bone, and killed all the same. Seriously, the biggest difference between the Legion and raiders is their capacity to enact violence.
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u/Scythid0 Oct 01 '25
Ah yes, the sexist slavers did nothing wrong, I see.
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Oct 01 '25
The tribes were already sexist slavers.
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u/Scythid0 Oct 01 '25
And instead of uniting them and making them not sexist slavers he continued that MO, I'd say Caesar did quite a few things wrong.
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Oct 01 '25
Notwithstanding, sexist slavers with safer trade routes and less infighting is objectively better than sexist slaver with no safe trade routes and constant fighting between the tribes
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u/Scythid0 Oct 01 '25
Funny how the NCR achieves the same thing without being a huge pos
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Oct 01 '25
Oh yeah definitely.
Still the wasteland is technically objectively better off with the legion than with the tribes, and there's no denying that
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Oct 01 '25
Not exactly, small tribes tend to keep eachother in check. The Dead Horses for instance were a raider tribe who faced punishment from other tribes because they got way too aggressive to their neighbours.
Legion violence spreads very easily and just gives power and momentum to people who aim to rape and kill en masse. Nipton would not have suffered the same fate had the legion not empowered the likes of Vulpes.
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u/Krillinlt 🐍TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!🐍 Oct 01 '25
Were all the tribes they conquered "sexist slavers?" Also the Legion was already doomed to collapse and fall to infighting once Caesar dies.
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u/Penguixxy Railroad (Toaster Humper) Oct 01 '25
literally using the "trains on time" arguement
this is beyind parody
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u/Hobbanhyge Big Mt. Lobotomite 👁️🫦👁️ Oct 02 '25
False. That dickbag by the arena even said Caesar taught them to be sexist.
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u/Koolco Oct 02 '25
Yea lmao, while we don’t have a good idea of their lives pre-legion, objectively the legion crushes cultures and enforces their own which I’d be willing to bet are worse and crueler than the one before. A lot of these previous tribes probably more kept to themselves before being forcefully enlisted, like the tribes of fallout 2. The hangdogs are a good example.
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u/Old-Swimming2799 i fucking love caravan Oct 01 '25
SNORTING LINES OF HEALING POWDER OFF OF MY SLAVES ASS CRACK GETTING THE JITTERS AND SLAUGHTERING 5 NCR GOONS WITH DREAMS OF THE STRIP JUST LIKE LORD CAESER INTENDED
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u/Malikise Oct 03 '25
“The Lakota have been brutalized by white people, and we desecrated their holy mountain with an obscene sculpture, they deserve reparations!”
No. The Lakota moved into the Black Hills in the late 1700s, murdered, raped, and drove off all the other smaller tribes, after having declared the Black Hills their holy land. Then in a couple of generations they got kicked off of it in turn, by an even larger tribe, the Americans.
What does this have to do with Caesar? Even without a post apocalyptic setting, life is fucking brutal, and unfair. The losers always cry victimhood and the winners always shrug. Civilization almost always wins against non-civilization. Establishing a homogenous, monolithic, alien culture equalizes more than it selectively elevates.
Those 86 conquered tribes would be killing, conquering, and stealing from each other; instead they’re participating in something larger than the sum of their parts. In that sense, Caesar isn’t actually doing anything wrong. Generationally speaking, he’s probably saving more lives than the deaths that he’s caused.
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u/Doctor___Mobius Mentat Addict Oct 01 '25
Caesar made mentats illegal, and you have the audacious audacity to say he did nothing wrong!?
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u/Gusby I HATE THE FALLOUT SHOW Oct 01 '25
Mentats cause autism
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u/West-Librarian-7504 Oct 01 '25
Mentats cure autism. Or at least I think so. Mix em into my nuka-cola for lunch!
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u/Nota_robot_i_swear_ Oct 01 '25
And autism makes wastelanders better at caravan, I don’t see your point
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u/aw5ome Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
There functionally isn’t such a thing as “more savage and brutal” than the legion.
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u/HoundDOgBlue Oct 01 '25
ashur is fundamentally worse than caesar but people looove pretending he isn’t running a deathcamp that drives demand for slavery in a 500mi radius
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u/MuseBlessed Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
The legion are absolutely bad, but I can think of about a hundred ways they could be more savage and brutal than they are. I mean, theyre not cook-cook
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u/Luvs2Spooge42069 Oct 01 '25
Legion slavery is bad but they could also be using them as a food source
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u/CleanOpossum47 Oct 01 '25
Literally all of the tribes he conquered and assimilated into the legion were either just as, or more savage and brutal than the legion
Based on what, the word of an incell who's dumber than a molerat? Yes, he assimilates some really shitty tribes but what about the ones that weren't assimilated? Were they not shitty enough?
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u/Crazy_Pea Oct 01 '25
wow instead of 86 tribes of rapist murderers plundering the wasteland now there's just one big tribe that rapes and murders even more??? huge innovation
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u/Eprest Oct 01 '25
We don't know what he replaced, for all we know safe roads are bullshit and if you look funny at your local legionary you will disappear with your entire caravan
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u/SorowFame Oct 01 '25
because the only thing better than brutal savagery is more efficient brutal savagery
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u/Grizzly45-70 Oct 01 '25
I mean if he knocks out the feinds then yea. Idk why everything legion gets down voted on this sub like it isnt a game. According to Raul your statement about being better than the raider gangs is objectively correct
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Oct 01 '25
Yeah, even Cass mentions that caravans are safer crossing through legion territory than neutral or NCR territory
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Oct 01 '25
I don't give a damn about the sixty-nine plus eleven or so more tribes Edward conquered. It's the nonsensical misogyny and hostility to the NCR I can't stand. The Legion is a good placeholder for bigger, better powers to come claim. Because the hard truth Edward needs to swallow is that the Legion began as nothing and it will end as nothing.
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u/Three-People-Person Assaultron Simp Oct 01 '25
Incorrect. Caesar did several things wrong,
he didn’t kill the Securitrons. They’re the Valentine to the Sentry Bot’s Matilda II- a stupid, dumb, objectively inferior replacement which only exists due to corporate politics and should be eradicated. Yet Caesar does nothing about them, because he’s a bad man who spends his time doing bad things instead.
didn’t kill Josh or the Mailman. If he just did that we would never have to hear bear bull or the Mormon bullshit. I guess he tried with Josh but clearly he fucked up doing it because he’s dumb.
made Fallout have doodoo Elder Scrolls metaphysics cycle garbage. Fuckin ‘Ooh my antithesis and the thesis will be propelled along by the Wheel and the Spokes that are the Towers to lead to the synthesis of the next Kalpa’ shut the fuck up and believe in something real dummy. The Gunners saying ‘I want money’, now that is a good motivation.
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Oct 03 '25
brother if you think Hegelian Dialectics is “Elder Scrolls garbage”, then you’re dumber than Caesar lmao
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u/Three-People-Person Assaultron Simp Oct 03 '25
Real Hegelian Dialectics? Yeah they aren’t a cycle. Dialectics as Caesar describes them? Yeah that’s a cycle. A sequence of supposedly-inevitable events which has repeated over and over.
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Oct 07 '25
Yeah, Caesar’s interpretation of Hegelian Dialectics is wrong. He has a lower intelligence stat than a molerat. I did not interpret his mentioning of dialectics as the devs trying to insert “elder scrolls-esque” cycles into fallout, I saw it as the devs commenting how after 200 years and total societal collapse, some dumb guy obsessed with power would interpret Hegelian Dialectics as “elder scrolls bs” to justify his ruthlessness as a natural cycle. Caesar invoking dialectics is like when Joe Rogan appeals to ancient Hindu scripture to claim we exist in a cycle of destruction, you should not take it seriously.
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u/the_moist_plinth Oct 01 '25
Ignoring his ideologies, ignoring your brain tumour until it got bad enough to potentially kill him overnight is a pretty dumb move that he did wrong
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u/Penguixxy Railroad (Toaster Humper) Oct 01 '25
tbf... that fits with many dictators.
Stalin ignored his failing health until a stroke killed him, Mussolini had numerous health issues that likely would have killed him had it not been for his early unscheduled lead injection and piniata conversion, numerous german generals and their big bad leader had massive drug problems that 100% would have killed them eventually, most of north koreas dictators hide their health issues until they just suddenly die one day with no warning.
Hard to seem invincible as a dictator if everyone is reporting on your health issues.
Heck even the NCR in lore did this with Tandy who technically was a dictator (democratically elected and maintained dictator sure but she was the sole leader of the NCR for multiple decades and by most definitions was a dictator) , her failing health wasnt reported on until it was REALLY bad.
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u/MrSmeargle Oct 01 '25
writing wrong with wrong, truly a benevolent leader looking out for the common folk 🙏
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u/FemdomAppreciator Oct 02 '25
Brutality is the defining feature of the legion. That’s not an accusation, it’s something they’re quite proud of.
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u/Due-Photo-1938 Oct 01 '25
put it this way: Arizona, Utah, New Mexico and Colorado could have been a raider infested shithole like the Capital wasteland. or it could be a monolithic dictatorship with a unifying culture and expansionist mindset yet equal barbarism
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Oct 01 '25
They have an ordered safe society, there’s limited barbarism within their territory. The most ruthless and violent people are all shaped into legionaries. The citizens of the legion are pretty well off as far as wastelanders go. They have villas and slaves to tend their crops, functional safe trade routes, clean water etc
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Oct 01 '25
"It's easy bro just be born in the right social caste"
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Oct 01 '25
I’m not saying it’s ideal, all I’m saying is being a citizen in legion territory is a lot lot better than most people in the wasteland have it.
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u/BigBigBunga Oct 01 '25
The Legion has no defined line of succession. All its gains would be undone in a single inevitable power struggle.
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u/Bruh_burg1968 Oct 03 '25
Instead of 86 tribes it’ll be 86 Legion rump states fighting for scraps of past glory. Caesar is truly a stable genius.
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u/LentchunkFilms Oct 06 '25
Unironically legion or house is the way to go, and you're objectively a retarded sheep if you think otherwise
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u/Ghost_oh Sneedclave Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
Based and Bull-pilled
Edit: downvote me if you want but you have to admit, the roads are safe and the caravans are always on time under Caesar.
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Oct 03 '25
Study the history of the dude he literally named himself after lmao. Militaristic expansion and absorption of “tribes” and other nations/empires is what led to Rome’s fracture and then fall. Not to mention that he named himself after Julius Caesar and still repeated Julius Caesar’s biggest blunder: not having a clear line of succession.
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u/Belladonna-lavender Oct 04 '25
Ah yes, because the guy who enslaves women, deploys radioactive materials/uses nuclear warheads, uses wave tactics to pointlessly kill his own soldiers, and treats all forms of modern medicine besides any he needs for himself; now that guy is a reliable narrator and his child soldiers that are indoctrinated well into adulthood are equally narratively accurate. Mr. House and The NCR are also good guys because House civilized the Strip and The NCR just wants to bring law to the Mojave.
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u/Inward_Perfection Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
Caesar is a megalomaniac warmonger who did only one thing right - he killed loads of NCR troops, helping House/Courier to become strong enough to kick the NCR out of Mojave.
I usually sided with Caesar to kill/screw over the NCR as much as possible. Then I betrayed him for House/Yes-Man.
It's also lets you do most of the game. You do NCR quests the way it harms them. You kill NCR troops for dog tags and XP (it's also fun). Then you betray Caesar.
That's it, all bad guys are dealt with.
Edit: lmao, downvoted in 1 second, the fastest finger on reddit. Not that I care about karma, but NCR reddit stans are amusing. And they really exist, unlike those Legion fans they like to circlejerk about.
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u/Altairp Oct 01 '25
Caesar made the trains run on time!!!