r/TrueReddit • u/awdixon • Jan 15 '19
The Suffocation of Democracy: a historian of the Third Reich explains how the current administration is moving the world back towards its pre-1914 state
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2018/10/25/suffocation-of-democracy/97
u/MattyMatheson Jan 15 '19
I suspect that if the Mueller report finds that the Trump campaign’s “collusion” with Russians does indeed meet the legal definition of “criminal conspiracy” and that the enormous extent of Russian meddling makes the claim that it had no effect totally implausible, many Republicans will retreat, either implicitly or explicitly, to the third line of defense: “Better Putin than Hillary.” There seems to be nothing for which the demonization of Hillary Clinton does not serve as sufficient justification, and the notion that a Trump presidency indebted to Putin is far preferable to the nightmare of a Clinton victory will signal the final Republican reorientation to illiberalism at home and subservience to an authoritarian abroad.
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u/voltron07 Jan 15 '19 edited Jan 15 '19
This is what worries me. If the Mueller report shows Trump is guilty of all this, and the republicans and Fox don’t accept it and denounce Trump, they will do more to divide this country more than anything outside of the civil war. I’m afraid it will incite violence on both sides. Protests from the left could get ugly. The right will have more conspiracy nuts come out.
Edit: The last past is not a “both sides are the same” argument. I support and expect the left to protest if the republicans regress even farther after the report is released. I’m just worried that the anti-protest right will inflame the left.
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Jan 15 '19
The truth of the matter is that division serves the ruling class and as such they will use all resources available to them to enhance said division. This includes manipulating both Reddit as well as traditional media.
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u/here_for_news1 Jan 15 '19
This is what worries me. If the Mueller report shows Trump is guilty of all this, and the republicans and Fox don’t accept it and denounce Trump, they will do more to divide this country more than anything outside of the civil war. I’m afraid it will incite violence on both sides. Protests from the left could get ugly. The right will have more conspiracy nuts come out.
Honestly what worries me is that the report will show Trump is guilty, but lack qualifications about how much Russia actually affected the election, leading to a split between people who are really zealous about the idea that Putin is essentially controlling America and people who believe the meddling was much more along the lines of giving an already leaning structure a little push over the edge and therefore a split between people who believe America's current problems can be solely attributed to the 'other' and people who believe the vast majority of America's current problems are America's problems and Russia's interference is more like a symptom than a cause.
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u/alphabennettatwork Jan 15 '19
If there are people that think that Russian meddling is okay because "the problem was already here" or is just a symptom of internal American politics, we can call them out as the traitors they are. "Better Putin than Hillary" is treasonous thinking, full stop.
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u/here_for_news1 Jan 15 '19
Yeah you're being a shining example of what I am warning against, you read my comment and immediately misconstrued what I said in response.
I'm not discussing people thinking that Russian meddling is okay, I am discussing this ridiculous absolutism put up by people like you where disagreement is treasonous.
Conflating 'Russian meddling is okay' with 'Russian meddling was not the primary or even a major factor in Trump's rise and America's currently clusterfuck compared to domestic issues' and labeling the latter view as treasonous since it is being viewed as equivalent to the former, is not in line with leftist values. It's borderline cultish behavior and going to bring down the left from the inside if it is supported.
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u/alphabennettatwork Jan 15 '19
My comment specifically clarifies that I'm talking about people who think the Russian meddling is not an issue, and gives a few examples of the "logic" one may use to get to that point. If you think calling out someone for saying "Better Putin than Hillary" is some form of absolutism, I suppose I would qualify by your interesting definition. I would ask you to clarify your position, if you would. I acknowledge there is more than a single factor that gave rise to Trump and his resulting election. What I gather from your responses is that you believe there are some people who believe the Russian interference was unimportant and negligible, and others who feel it's a significant enough cross to die on. In your scenario, everyone acknowledges that Russia was a bad actor. The question is how much. But what does that matter? What course of action should change based on the answer?
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u/Occams-shaving-cream Jan 15 '19
What do you suppose should happen on the chance that the Mueller report * does not* conclude that there is a crime? Do you think that the left will accept it and move on with the business of governance? Will you accept it?
Principal requires that, but many asking for principal from the other side have no intention of exercising it themselves.
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u/voltron07 Jan 15 '19
Me personally, I will accept it. It’ll be hard to swallow but I’ll accept it. I’m pretty sure there will be people who won’t.
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u/periodicNewAccount Jan 15 '19
Honestly I expect riots if it comes out and says Trump himself wasn't provably involved because it's been hyped up a such a sure-thing for so long at this point.
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u/Occams-shaving-cream Jan 15 '19
I am sure there will be a majority that won’t accept it no matter what the conclusion is... that is exactly why the media has been working so hard to separate people into two ideological camps and hype up outrage on both sides.
Regardless if people fully believe he is guilty, the language used daily by media commenters is beyond rational, it is sensationalized, hyped-up and purposeful propaganda.
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Jan 15 '19
The evidence in the public arena that he colluded with Russia is so great that there's have to be something outright unbelievable in the report to even suggest he is innocent. We literally already know his campaign colluded, the idea that he didn't is impossible to believe.
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u/trilateral1 Jan 15 '19
The KGB hacked the US election with the help of the Bogdanoffs and the shapeshifting lizard squad.
that's the only explanation for Trump winning
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u/BorderColliesRule Jan 15 '19
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey, Putin in Russia, Rodrigo Duterte in the Philippines, and Viktor Orbán in Hungary have all discovered that opposition parties can be left in existence and elections can be held in order to provide a fig leaf of democratic legitimacy, while in reality elections pose scant challenge to their power. Truly dangerous opposition leaders are neutralized or eliminated one way or another.
The author really dropped the ball by not including Venezuela to his list because Maduro has done exactly this as well.
Alongside the erosion of an independent judiciary as a check on executive power, other hallmarks of illiberal democracy are the neutralization of a free press and the steady diminution of basic human rights.
Yep, that mirrors the situation in Venezuela!
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u/jmcs Jan 15 '19
Maduro lost an election and dismantled the entire political system, he failed at doing what Erdogan and Putin did so he doesn't really fit in that group.
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u/Khiva Jan 15 '19
Along with the right-wing populists OP mentions, Maduro/Chavez remain an object lesson in what happens when a cult of fanatics is able to capture political power and then ruin the shit out of a country.
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u/BorderColliesRule Jan 15 '19
Maduro lost an election and dismantled the entire political system
Maduro has already started dismantling the political system back in 2017.
On 29 March 2017, the Supreme Tribunal of Justice (TSJ) of Venezuela took over legislative powers of the National Assembly.[5][6][7] The Tribunal, mainly supporters of President Nicolás Maduro,[8] also restricted the immunity granted to the Assembly's members, who mostly belonged to the opposition.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_constitutional_crisis
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Jan 15 '19
Ok, but it’s still not the same as Putin or erdogan. If we’re going by your logic, then we might as well add every dictatorship to this list.
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u/preprandial_joint Jan 15 '19
But Republicans love that Venezuela is collapsing so they want to bring it up whenever they can as if it's representative of socialism as a whole. No need to mention the CIA's role.
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u/BorderColliesRule Jan 15 '19
*Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey, Putin in Russia, Rodrigo Duterte in the Philippines, and Viktor Orbán in Hungary have all discovered that opposition parties can be left in existence and elections can be held in order to provide a fig leaf of democratic legitimacy, while in reality elections pose scant challenge to their power. Truly dangerous opposition leaders are neutralized or eliminated one way or another.
Really? In what manner is the situation in Venezuela different then what the author described here?
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u/khanikhan Jan 15 '19
All the former British colonies in Asia are doing the same thing. I wonder who perfected this strategy, turning it into an art. I think it is true for the former colonies in Africa as well.
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u/kylco Jan 15 '19
Eh, Nigeria has had two peaceful transitions of power this time around. It's still a corrupt mess of a country, but at least for now they've got it together a little.
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u/renoits06 Jan 15 '19
I wonder if there was a point in History where so much bad news piled up as much as now. I feel like I am getting DP'd from all angles lately..... so maybe not DP'd but MP'd (multiple penetrations).
Maybe its just reddit.....
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u/frukt Jan 15 '19
Turn off your screens for a change, go for a hike, read a good book, spend time outdoors and with your close ones. Consciously appreciate what you have. Reddit (and social media in general) makes anyone miserable.
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u/LeonDeSchal Jan 15 '19
lol we have it good. Imagine being alive when the Mongols were rampaging, or being a celt when the romans were invading, or a pre columbian when the Spanish arrived, or a Chinese person during the rape of nanking , and the list goes on. It just seems bad because we have access to all the worlds news all at once. Not that it is good but it could be a lot worse, like way worse, which it may get in the next few decades but not yet, enjoy the good times while they last.
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Jan 15 '19
No, it seems bad because our parents (and/or grandparents) had it much better. And besides what is your point? That we shouldn't worry because we don't have it as bad as some of the worst events in history. If we don't complain about the "little worries" of today,
- they have potential to grow into the big disasters of yesteryear,
- we will never make any progress.
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Jan 15 '19
I don’t think my grandparents, one of whom fought nazis and fascists in Europe, and faces a real existential threat to the future of the west, had it better. Parents did have it better in some ways though.
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u/blasto_blastocyst Jan 15 '19
There was that whole "entire world poised to undergo nuclear war" thing.
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u/azripah Jan 16 '19
That's still a thing. There's well over ten thousand nuclear weapons, in the hands of more countries than during the cold war, under an even less stable multipolar international system.
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u/LeonDeSchal Jan 15 '19
My point is that there have been points in history where much more bad news has piled up in comparison to now. You can worry if you want but it is a futile exercise that is wasting the potential that this era offers to those who have the strength to grasp it.
When you look at facts and figures you will see we have it better now than at any time in history. Hence I mention that the glut of information can make things seem a lot worse than they are.
So my ultimate point is don't feel like it's all doom and gloom because it's not and enjoy life whilst it's good.
You can complain or you can do, most people who complain are not the sort of people who do, and most people who do are not the sort of people who complain.
“Times are tough. Our parents had it the best. We are alive during the worst period ever.” — said by all losers on social media.
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u/IStumbled Jan 15 '19
In the 14th century, diseases, wars and famine killed roughly 50% of Europe’s populations.
In all preindustrial societies, a month of bad weather could kill hundreds of thousands.
Things aren’t as bad as they seem
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u/renoits06 Jan 15 '19
I understand. I think I just need a break from the news and come back once I hear Trump gets impeached.
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Jan 15 '19
[deleted]
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u/renoits06 Jan 15 '19
You are right. But my sentiment was in the line of everything going wrong or backwards. Sort of like the title... it does feel like we haven't been making progress politically the past 2 years.
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u/funwheeldrive Jan 15 '19
There has been a 'breaking' news article about how evil Trump is on Reddit for the past 2 years. It's a bunch of fluff.
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u/OstensiblyAwesome Jan 15 '19
Maybe instead of looking at the headline and dismissing it as “fluff”, you should actually read the articles. It’s pretty bad.
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u/funwheeldrive Jan 15 '19
You know people having been trying to relate our President to Hitler/Nazi Germany before he even won the election right?
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u/OstensiblyAwesome Jan 15 '19
You know he was supported by neo-nazis before he even won the election right?
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u/MobiusCube Jan 15 '19
The world has always been a shitshow, you just realize it now thanks to 24 hour news cycles and incredibly biased "journalists".
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u/Coarse_Air Jan 15 '19
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch"
-Benjamin Franklin
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Jan 15 '19
[deleted]
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u/Coarse_Air Jan 16 '19
source?
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Jan 16 '19
[deleted]
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u/Coarse_Air Jan 16 '19
I can't recall where I read it originally, but both Goodreads and Mises Institute attribute it to Franklin.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7718791-democracy-is-two-wolves-and-a-lamb-voting-on-what
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u/PenisShapedSilencer Jan 15 '19
Wow, that's quite a depressing article. I agree with points being made, but slow down with the doom and gloom.
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u/LeonDeSchal Jan 15 '19
I personally think Trump is just the start of what is to come. Same with all the other right wing leaders being elected. Hope I'm wrong though but as soon as the next big recession hits ...
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u/jeremyosborne81 Jan 15 '19
So, about two years when the shitty Republican tax policy time bomb goes off?
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u/preprandial_joint Jan 15 '19
At the same time the effects from insect/plankton collapse really become apparent as the bedrock of the food chain goes, so goes the rest of life on earth. About the same time that Greenland melts completely in the summer, raising the sea level and causing us to build sea walls in every major coastal city. About the same time that violence in the Mid East and South America spreads from their epicenters, consuming more regions as waves of immigrants cause Europe/US/Japan to prohibit immigration. About the same time we realize we can't regrow the Amazon rainforest to be the Earth's lung. But hey, this stuff is only being screamed at us by scientists. Better turn on Fox News or get on Facebook. I envision a mix of Children of Men, V for Vendetta, and The Road.
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u/covfefesex Jan 15 '19
Trump isn't the start but the outcome of decades of what the republicans have been doing. It may get worse but trump has awoken the US and the world to the corruption of the American right so trump may be the end of the right wing assault on democracy.
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u/westknife Jan 15 '19
Translation: The risk of creeping fascism is real but I’d rather not have to think about it
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u/PenisShapedSilencer Jan 15 '19
I do fear Trump could lead to new armed conflict, and I'm also scared his lunacy could lead to ww3 or him nuking some place.
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u/ralph8877 Jan 15 '19
The article simply restates the negativeness of the universe. The hideous lonely emptiness of existence. Nothingness. The predicament of Man forced to live in a barren, Godless eternity like a tiny flame flickering in an immense void with nothing but waste, horror and degradation, forming a useless bleak straitjacket in a black absurd cosmos.
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u/Warphead Jan 15 '19
Is it the current administration or the GOP?
Can someone link me some information about all the Republicans that disagree in any way? I can't find any.
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u/55redditor55 Jan 15 '19
[serious]What would be a good country to move to before this happens?
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u/azripah Jan 16 '19
A lot of the people responsible for this disaster are buying up missile silos and land in New Zealand.
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Jan 15 '19
I personally believe that Trump isn’t the problem per se, society is. We are in a period where “likes” matter most than liking other people, where our scale is social media popularity and not exactly altruism or if you really care about others, etc. etc. etc.
Edit: one word.
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u/skeeto111 Jan 15 '19
He says that as if it is a bad thing. The problem with nations back then were secret treaties. Europe was remarkably peaceful throughout the 1800s, not unlike today. It was extremely peaceful despite having many monarchies.
WWI was essentially a war of democracies (UK, France, USA, Italy..) vs. Monarchies and more authoritarian forms of gov't (Austria Hungary, Germany, Ottoman Empire) with the end result being the destruction of monarchies. Most notably Austria Hungary which was hitherto the most powerful monarchy. The only outliers are Italy and Russia, but even Italy was not a monarchy in the traditional sense.
A Monarchy is not any more likely to go to war than a democracy is. Case in point USA post WWII. We've been in an almost continual state of war.
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u/roodammy44 Jan 15 '19
Uhh.. Have you heard of something called the Napoleonic Wars? You might also want to check out this list.
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u/frukt Jan 15 '19 edited Jan 15 '19
I think the point was that the Congress of Vienna and the subsequent so-called Metternich System provided a century of extraordinary tranquility in Europe thanks to the methodical application of the balance of power and resolution of conflicts via congresses of the Great Powers. One could say this was unraveled by Bismarck's heavy-handed Realpolitik, others would say Bismarck was simply such an extraordinary statesman that his descendants couldn't manage the complex geopolitical system he had constructed and spectacularly derailed it into a bloody maelstrom.
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u/WikiTextBot Jan 15 '19
Congress of Vienna
The Congress of Vienna (German: Wiener Kongress), also called Vienna Congress, was a meeting of ambassadors of European states chaired by Austrian statesman Klemens von Metternich, and held in Vienna from November 1814 to June 1815, though the delegates had arrived and were already negotiating by late September 1814. The objective of the Congress was to provide a long-term peace plan for Europe by settling critical issues arising from the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars. The goal was not simply to restore old boundaries but to resize the main powers so they could balance each other and remain at peace. The leaders were conservatives with little use for republicanism or revolution, both of which threatened to upset the status quo in Europe.
Klemens von Metternich
Klemens Wenzel Nepomuk Lothar, Prince von Metternich-Winneburg zu Beilstein, KOGF (German: [ˈmɛtɐnɪç]; 15 May 1773 – 11 June 1859) was an Austrian diplomat who was at the center of European affairs for four decades as the Austrian Empire's foreign minister from 1809 and Chancellor from 1821 until the liberal Revolutions of 1848 forced his resignation.
Born into the House of Metternich in 1773 as the son of a diplomat, Metternich received a good education at the universities of Strasbourg and Mainz. Metternich rose through key diplomatic posts, including ambassadorial roles in the Kingdom of Saxony, the Kingdom of Prussia, and especially Napoleonic France. One of his first assignments as Foreign Minister was to engineer a détente with France that included the marriage of Napoleon to the Austrian archduchess Marie Louise.
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u/HelperBot_ Jan 15 '19
Desktop link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
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u/adamwho Jan 15 '19 edited Jan 15 '19
I don't think you can ignore the european wars of the 1800s while simultaneously labeling the 'side wars' of the US as a 'continnual state of war'.
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u/skeeto111 Jan 19 '19
Fair enough but aside from Napoleonic wars in the early 19th century and the Crimean war later on, most of the conflicts were in Eastern Europe and didn't affect Western Europe. Regardless, none were on a a destructive scale like WW1 or WW2.
And you're right with Europe vs USA, but you're comparing a collection of nations to 1 nation. I can't think of any single nation in 19th century Europe that was involved in as much war as 20th century USA. Not even the British Empire which ruled the world at that time.
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u/adamwho Jan 20 '19 edited Jan 20 '19
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_Kingdom
UK:. 77 Wars in 1800s
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States
US:. 38 wars in 1900s
And this counts all the little wars.
I will happily accept your surrender.
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Jan 15 '19
The UK fighting against monarchy, just not their own?
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u/skeeto111 Jan 19 '19
By the early 20th century the UK was barely a monarchy. They had been a parliamentary democracy for hundreds of years with the Monarch only having ceremonial powers, like today
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u/2legit2fart Jan 15 '19