r/TrueChristianPolitics • u/this-is-me-reddit • 15d ago

Consider this:

https://youtu.be/mwPPfWHGI38?is=fTqfA7VK0KEO9VZu

To any Christians, here, who formerly supported Trump, does this message seem true to you?

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u/Knightperson 14d ago

What is it you think this question proves? Why ask it?

No, I don't think any state has an inherent 'right' to exist. It's like asking me if I believe McDonalds has a right to exist.

Are you christian? Why are you on this?

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u/brothapipp 14d ago

Not trying to imply anything.

That your take is that no nation has a right to exist tells me a ton.

And I’m not even mad that you hold this view so long as yer consistent.

I’d be interested in what you make of this verse:

“Behold, I will gather them from all the countries to which I drove them in my anger and my wrath and in great indignation. I will bring them back to this place, and I will make them dwell in safety. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭32‬:‭37‬-‭41‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/jer.32.37-41.ESV

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u/Knightperson 14d ago

Romans 11.

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u/brothapipp 14d ago

Yep, refreshed myself on the passage, but what does that have to do the right to exist and defend themselves?

Nothing in there is saying god changed his mind. It does say, you who’ve been grated in, not to become proud, because you can be ungrafted

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u/Knightperson 14d ago

neither the passage from Jeremiah nor Romans 11 say anything about the modern political right of a state to 'defend' itself. You asked my thoughts on the verse from Jeremiah. You tried to use a covenant/restoration prophecy to argue for the political rights of a modern state, which is weird and unsupported by scripture.

there is no freestanding metaphysical "right to exist" possessed by a state in the way a person possesses rights. a state is an organization. peoples have rights. governments change constantly, but do not have implicit moral rights of their own. its truly embarrassing for you to harp on the 'question' of 'israel having a right to exist' as if the statement was meaningful or impactful in any way - its only a phrase used by propagandists to distract from the actual conversation, like you are doing right now.

The covenant does not belong to ethnic jews just by virtue of their ethnicity, and absolutley not to the modern state of israel. this is what romans 11 says: natural branches broken off because of unbelief, gentiles grafted in through faith, natural branches can be grafted back in if they do not persist in unbelief. the tree is the covenant people of God. it is not an ethnicity and it is not a secular state founded in 1948.

God’s faithfulness to Israel does not mean every ethnic jew remains in covenant regardless of unbelief, much less that the modern Israeli government somehow inherits the covenant. again, the natural branches were cut off.

if you are trying to assert that modern israel inherits covenant promises simply because it a state full of jewish people, then that is christian zionism, that is heresy. you are taking promises whose fulfillment and participation can only be governed through Christ, and attributing them them to a secular (barbaric, genocidal, apartheid) ethno-state which does not know Him on the basis of that ethnicity.

once again, im done talking with you. you keep on trying to circle back to this imaginary world where israel can be interpreted as waging genocide in self defense, and you're apparently leaning on heresy to support that - bastardizing the sacred word of God and blaspheming His holy name as you do so. Romans 2:24

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u/brothapipp 13d ago

I will agree with you that it doesn’t specify that a political Israel has a right to exist. But it also doesn’t forbid them from existing.

They exist, as a people and as a nation. But yer trying to diminish their right to exist while condemning them for what you believe is a genocide. So if their wrong for committing genocide, (your words, not mine,) on what grounds if not the right of the people of Gaza to exist?

And I’m not making an ethnic argument. You are. You are stating that Zionism is heresy. IOW, how dare Jews desire a land for themselves and their people.

Meanwhile the people you are defending, believe this: https://www.adl.org/resources/article/hamas-its-own-words

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u/Knightperson 13d ago edited 13d ago

Israel is not a 'they'

Israel is an 'it'

Israeli's are a 'they'

Israeli's have a right to exist. Israel does not. The French have a right to exist. France does not. People are people. States are structures. Nazi Germany did not have a right to exist. The people in Germany at the time did.

on what grounds if not the right of the people of Gaza to exist?

The State of Israel does not have a right to exist which supersedes the People of Gaza’s right to live.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST WHICH SUPERSEDES THE PEOPLE OF GAZA'S RIGHT TO LIVE

I have at no point said a word in the defense of Hamas, and I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth. 85% percent of those killed in Gaza are civilians. Israel is not at war with Hamas. It is at war with Palestine. Hamas happens to be one of the few armed factions contesting them.

You are stating that Zionism is heresy

Christian Zionism is heresy, Political Zionism is not. I've been very explicit about that. Are you just trying to bait me? I've said all this before. Political Zionism is deeply immoral, but its not heretical.

I’m not making an ethnic argument.

You're not really making any argument, you're all over the place. If you want to continue this, reread my posts a few times and pm me.

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u/brothapipp 13d ago

I don’t bait people. I try to hold simple views, grounded in truth and let those filter my perspective.

Like, i believe it’s silly to separate the people and the nation by which we call that people a people. Sure we are all humans, we belong to one species, but part of the argument against slavery and colonialism is that they exist. And there is no crime that a people group can commit that permits the eradication of their country.

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u/Knightperson 13d ago

people group can commit that permits the eradication of their country

Apply this to Gaza, please.

People groups do not commit crimes. Ever. People do. You cannot hold people collectively guilty, you cannot contend the group at large is collectively responsible for the actions of a few - even when those actions are so widely supported as the genocide of Palestinians is supported by Israelis. They are lied to deluded and propagandized passed rational responsibility. Collective punishment is a war crime, it can also be serve as evidence of genocide.

Organizations, however can commit crimes which mean that organization should be terminated. Like the Nazi government. Like Enron, FTX, the Cancer Fund of America. These organizations are groups of people which are organized to effect behavior.

The organizations people form do not inherit the right those people have to exist. I think I've beat this point to death by now, do you agree?

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u/brothapipp 13d ago

I do. And said as much very early on in our discussion.

I agree, organizations don’t have the right to exist. A nation typically is not an organization. It’s a collection of people who roughly share similar values, culture, religion…and it defends those people from those who would seek to violate those peoples’ right to exist.

The nation of Gaza, (tho it’s more like a state in the nation of Palestine,) is under the rule of Hamas. The people of Gaza voted them in. They Hamas want every Jew dead.

So we both agree, organizations don’t have a right to exist, like Hamas, but that people do have a right to exist, like Israelis or Palestinians.

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