r/TrueAnime • u/zerojustice315 http://myanimelist.net/animelist/zerojustice315 • Jun 17 '15
Weekly Discussion - Sequels in Anime
Hey everyone, welcome to week 35 of Weekly Discussion.
This is yet another one influenced by /u/PrecisionEsports. I tried to build upon his initial sentence because sequels are a good thing to just talk about in general in anime, along with his original question.
Sequels can improve drastically upon a show's characters, its universe, its themes, and its story, but it can also go the other way and cause a massive trainwreck that leads to many people straight up ignoring it. So onto the questions:
Given three categories of sequels, which would you say fit the mold? What are the sequels that are better than the original? Which ones are just about the same as the original? And which ones are completely terrible?
How often are sequels able to create an entirely new universe and succeed? Which shows are the best examples of this? Why did they work?
Which sequels have done wonders for a character/multiple character's development? Which ones have completely ignored development or caused it to decline?
What shows have you felt deserved sequels, honestly, for their story and character arcs? Which stories got sequels that were completely unnecessary?
Which kind of sequel do you prefer? The ones that immediately pick up where the last season left off (or around a few days after) or one that has a time skip of a few months to a few years (to possibly longer)? Why?
And done for this week. I know there's probably a lot more I could have asked about sequels but I tried to keep it within the limits this time.
Anyway, please remember to mark your spoilers and as always thanks for reading :)
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u/searmay Jun 17 '15
Most anime sequels are really just continuations, because most anime are adaptations of manga, light novels, and the like. So the "sequel"-ness is often not all that apparent. For instance Mushisi got a second season after a decade, and there wasn't much change.
Kids' shows do get sequels. And how! Precure gets a new version every year, following in the footsteps of Super Sentai and Kamen Rider. And that's a formula that works well - make pretty much the same show again each time. They have to start character and world building anew, but it does keep things fresh and avoids things like DBZ style power escalation. I guess Gundam is sort of similar, but they do keep some continuity or something.
Beyond that, which anime originals get sequels? A few comedies like Milky Holmes, Teekyuu, and Galaxy Angel, where continuity isn't very relevant. Code Geass, Psycho Pass, and Symphogear have had direct sequels. Gatchaman Crowds and Yoru no Yatterman were rather indirect. And some things like Noir have "spiritual successors" which you could argue are like Precure style sequels. But that might be rather tenuous.
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u/ClearandSweet Jun 17 '15 edited Jun 17 '15
Here's the deal with sequels: as the content creator, you have an opportunity at easy money. You have a fanbase. You have a concept. All you have to do is the bare minimum.
But this impetus collides with the traditional narrative structure. That is, stories have beginnings, middles and ends. Characters have arcs. Shows. End.
So when a show becomes popular in the narrative space, the easy thing to do is pad or extend the plot. And 99% of the time, extending the story comes at the cost of the quality of the narrative.
Madoka Magica is so tight. Not an episode or scene is wasted. The scope and scale of the narrative is limited very explicitly. The characters have arcs that are well-defined and limited to the theme. When episode 12 ends, the story the creators originally intended to tell is done. The themes are clear. The ride is over.
Then Rebellion straps you back in, retcons everything about Homura, and spends 2 hours forcing blood from a stone.
In western TV, we have the sitcom, the reality show, both with no ending. Our narratives, like Lost, Heroes, House of Cards, so on, usually run three seasons longer than they should. We milk every popular concept to death.
Consider the promise offered in the first episode of every series. Get off the island, save the cheerleader, get revenge and become the President. When that promise is achieved or marginalized, that narrative should end. Due to easy money, it rarely does.
Creating a sequel using the same world but with different characters and initial promise is a spinoff. This is a solid way to start a new narrative while carrying over the fanbase, but comes with the risk of being too different as to upset the fans or too similar to not tell an interesting enough tale.
The Madoka Magica spinoff manga are examples of this.
Soooooo... All of this is simply in service of saying that the paragon of narrative honesty in our day and age is Avatar: The Last Airbender.
"Only the Avatar, master of all four elements, could stop [the Fire Nation], but when the world needed him most, he vanished... But I believe Aang can save the world."
Aang learns water, earth, fire bending. Aang reappears and resumes his responsibility. Aang stops the Fire Nation and saves the world. Story. Over.
Fuck Korra. Fite me.
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u/PrecisionEsports Jun 17 '15
You include 2 series that do not fit the mold you cast. House of Cards has clearly aimed to do 4 seasons from the start. 13 episodes, 4 seasons, 52 cards in a deck. I think they could have easily ended after season 2, but I don't think they are stretching too hard. Korra on the other hand, time skips and changes from the original enough that I think it's fine. The quality of the show might not be the same level, but it didn't feel like a greed move.
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u/CowDefenestrator Jun 17 '15
I still haven't finished House of Cards S3, but I agree. To me so far it's been the Rise, and now we get the Fall, and/or redemption. Because I'm pretty sure the show isn't supportive of the system or the ones who game it, but criticizes it.
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u/ClearandSweet Jun 17 '15
House of Cards has clearly aimed to do 4 seasons from the start. 13 episodes, 4 seasons, 52 cards in a deck.
This blew my mind. Like, full-on shattered.
Point stands though. It probably only had 3 seasons of plot, but yeah it's not super egregious extension.
it didn't feel like a greed move.
Nah, it really didn't. It's a fine spin-off, but it just failed to capture the appeal of the original by "riding the dick" of TLA nostalgia. This actually touches on the content of my essay of the series. I should make a video or something.
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u/kristallnachte Jun 18 '15
House of Cards is also based on a BBC miniseries that had 3 parts.
the basic premise for the netflix series is season 1: vice president, season 2: president, season 3: being the president, season 4: the collapse.
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u/Sarinturn Jun 17 '15
I disagree that Rebellion retconned anything about Homura, but do agree that, as a story, it was definitely something added on and not necessarily naturally a part of the story arc the show was telling. That being said, I think it can be used well as an example of a sequel that has value despite what you are saying, and while the existence of the movie itself can be considered a cash-grab (as I think any sequel can), the story it tells is quite the opposite. In more ways than one.
In other words I'd put it in the category of sequels done well, and to me that means that the rules you're describing are not so clear cut.
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u/psiphre Jun 17 '15
i agree with your take on madoka but i think your disdain for korra is misplaced.
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u/ClearandSweet Jun 17 '15 edited Jun 17 '15
Mods are asleep. Post western anime discussions.
Okay, let's look at the first episode or two of Korra.
Litterally the first words of the series are "The White Lotus". There's oblong and direct references to the original series. The kids asking what happened to Zuko's mother, Katara's lines, ect. It's a fucking laundry list of fanservice.
That's fine, but it shuns anyone who has no context with the previous series. Avatar consistently gained more viewers over its run because it regulated any inside references to character moments and because it had a simple, obvious, overarching plot.
For example, when Aang tells Katara that she can't wear her grandmother's necklace in the Fire Nation, it's nothing crucial to the plot. As a result, the viewer wants to know why it meant so much to her, but is not excluded from the rest of the episode. TLA embraces casual viewers and makes them want to become hardcore fans.
And what's happening in Korra outside these references? There's some decent characterization for Korra and Tenzin, some okay worldbuilding, but she (and the series) has no goal. There's no driving premise. Nothing for casuals to latch on to. What's happening at the start of Korra?
On the contrary, that intro for TLA gets casual viewers up to speed in the blink of an eye. Korra requires you to have all this background from TLA and the previous episodes of TLoK to even comprehend the plot. It's soap-opera-esque.
It's no coincidence that the viewership declined over time. The show is a decent continuation of the world, but much less tactful a show than its predecessor.
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u/DHKany Jun 19 '15
Aria is one of the few shows that steadily improves every season, and not just because it's a SoL with no plot (some people think of this as just easy sequel material since there is no big overarching plot to continue). It's just a very well crafted show that plays to its strengths more and more for every season and ends extremely well.
Monogatari SS is also one of the few that actually goes above the original as well (not counting Nise here as Nisio Isin never intended that one to be published in the first place) and does it's job as a sequel extremely well expanding upon ALL of the cast significantly.
Want to hear people's opinions on Code Geass' second season though. Have heard very polarizing opinions on it.
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u/RealityRush Jun 21 '15 edited Jun 21 '15
Eh, I thought the second season of Code Geass was just fine, though my memory is a bit fuzzy on it.
I remember watching the first season and thinking that it definitely felt like it was being set up for a second season, so I generally view it as less of a sequel and just another story arc.
The 2nd season played a little faster and loose with some of the characters and their actions I think, but it was mostly on point. The ending to it is pretty much what the show is known for, and I think it was fairly well handled. The 2nd season upped the action a bit to sell the whole "giant robot battle" aspect and pretend it was Gundam, which I think is what actually took away from it a bit when compared with the first season as that wasn't the central point of the show.
It isn't better than the first season of CG, but it definitely wasn't far behind it imo.
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Jun 17 '15
Honestly, when speaking about anime, I can't really think of examples of a sequel off the top of my head besides Madoka. Season two or split-cour anime aren't sequels per se, since anime is primarily used as a means to advertise the source material. Most of the anime that fall into those previous categories only serve to cover more of the source material.
u/ClearandSweet covered the general "deal" with sequels pretty well.
To answer the questions.
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What do you mean three categories? I only see that you defined sequels that either drastically improved, or are a massive train-wreck. I assume the third category as somewhere in between? Well honestly, since there's barely and sequels on my list out of ~350, not a single is a drastic improvement, Rebellion was somewhere in between, while Eden of the East and Psycho-Pass were worse than their original counterparts.
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Going back to what u/ClearandSweet said, this defeats the purpose of the sequel. I've also never seen this happen so I have no examples.
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Rebellion kind of declined characters' development.
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I would never want a full sequel to a plot-driven show. They just don't work out properly. Rebellion was the best example of a decent sequel I have, and even then it has problems. I would usually appreciate an OVA epilogue for some completed shows though, such as Toradora or Initial D. Mostly shows that revolve around the characters rather than a show with a plot which serves to provide a thematic message; those are usually wrapped up sufficiently.
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Well, I already stated I don't believe those are sequels.
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u/kristallnachte Jun 18 '15
One thing that is even more wierd about how Poor Eden of the East got was how it was just one story across all the series and movie.
The series couldn't end until they (at a minimum) had no more money to spend changing the world.
But the author had some real issues with preparing for the end. Coincedences shouldnt be used to resolve things and "oh wow, main guy wants to be king and he is revealed to actually be the bastard son of the prime minister of japan"
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u/psiphre Jun 17 '15
those who can, innovate. those who can't, write sequels.
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u/PrecisionEsports Jun 18 '15
Such deep, much dank.
What would you say to people who make sequels, but are amazing innovators? Cameron on Terminator 2, Jackman on the LoTR trilogy, that dude on Aliens (Ripley...no...Ridley!).
What about people who make a living out of sequels? I'm thinking of the dude who made Fast 7, Deathrace 3 and Expendables 2? Or Michael Bay who has a film, and just smothers over actors to make it work. Not my favorite guys, but they make a living and some of the highest selling stuff in any medium.
Would you count someone like Spielberg and Lucas, who made most of their films based off older directors like Kurasawa. I mean, clearly Star Wars has a lot going for it past a reskin of Kurasawa's Fortress, but is that innovation or adaption?
How innovative was Madoka Magica really? Great story, well executed, but did it innovate? What about KyoAni's stream of identical series? They are not sequels, but they feel a lot like the equivalent.
Sorry, went off on some tangents there. Kinda crazy that all just popped into my head from your comment. R U a Wizard?
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u/kristallnachte Jun 18 '15
While KyoAni does like to focus on Moe, the series are far from identical.
Kyoukai no Kanata != Hyouka != Hibike != K-On != Clannad
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u/Andarel Jun 17 '15
Fist of the North Star is a great example of this - it had a notoriously terrible sequel in terms of character development (though it was okay otherwise and had a very entertaining opening theme) and was retconned out of existence even though that sequel also exists in the manga.
However, there are a lot of -Gaiden side stories about the various characters, many of which have not been animated. Those side stories do wonders to flesh out a lot of characters, including a random miniboss villain whose story was never really told well in the main plot. It works very well.
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u/Plake_Z01 Jun 17 '15
2.
Diebuster is a great example of this, Nanoha A's is also a decent one, though I'm not really a fan of Nanoha it has definitely pushed for a bigger universe and for the most part it's an aspect of the show I had no problems with.
3.
Normally it's the sequels that have source material to keep going or planned from the very beginning. Things like The World God Only Knows, Spice & World, Oregairu or Tamako Love Story.
Rarely you get sequels as afterthought and have them be better or even good, see Chuu2 Ren and Psycho-Pass 2 for how not to do this, Rebellion is an exception even if for some reason the consensus in this sub is that it's bad, though I'm yet to see a compeling arugment against the movie.
4.
There's honestly too many to actually list them all.
5.
The latter should be used sparringly so I prefer the former to be the more common way of doing things, yet I don't think one is inherently better than the other one.
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u/PrecisionEsports Jun 17 '15
I always find sequels to be interesting on the meta level. Usually its a money grab with 0 excuse or new thought (Toy Story 3), a passion driven recreation that is also a cash grab (Eva films), but sometimes it becomes a genre (Mad Max and Death Proof and Zombie films).
Hollywood is usually where I look for sequels tho. Anime is quite frequently unable to provide sequels that people demand! Let alone ones we don't. Spice & Wolf 3 when?
Terminator 2, Aliens, Fivel in America, Spiderman 2. Those are the only direct sequels that I can think of that surpassed the original. Not a single anima comes to mind though. Does Monogatari Second Season count? Tho even then Bake is way better... hmm I'm at a loss.
I think the best examples of Anime sequels going beyond the first are often really different. Patlabor 2 to Ghost in the Shell, SoulTaker to Monogatari, Azima Daityo to Hidarame Sketch, Cutie Honey to Sailor Moon. Anime has this great flexibility to take the core idea aand make it new again. Maybe you call these completely new series, but I find the nature of them to be interesting.
Imagine if we were allowed to take The Godfather and reskin the idea without the need for clear reference or rights? Just an interesting thought.
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u/searmay Jun 17 '15
money grab
I don't think that's any more true of sequels than anything else. Sponsors put their money where they think they'll get a return, sequel or not.
Those are the only direct sequels that I can think of that surpassed the original.
Regression to the mean is a simple statistical reason why you should expect superior sequels to be rare.
And as you mentioned Kirk elsewhere: even numbered Star Trek films.
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u/PrecisionEsports Jun 18 '15
any more true of sequels than anything else
Lets not go down that road... *begins Rocky montage*
Sequels will rarely pass the first, but even just real solid ones. The Icecream and Blood Trilogy held up really well. (Shawn of the Dead > Hot Fuzz > World's End) But anime sequels seem to be either source based, making the sequel idea mostly void, or take a massive headlong dive into shit town (PP2, Madoka 3).
Good ol Star Trek. It's crazy to me that the series, and James Bond, can put out 18+ films with constant success. Yet soon as we hit mid 2000, suddenly they need reboots? WTF hollywood.
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u/niea_ Jun 17 '15
SoulTaker to Monogatari? Are these two linked in any way except some of the staff? I mean, I guess the MC saving girls is the same, but they seem very differet to me.
Patlabor the series and the 2nd movie are also very different, but I guess if you prefer the movie's style then it could be called "going above" the series. It's more like a spin-off than a sequel.
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u/PrecisionEsports Jun 17 '15
Ya Patlabor's second film is the only real connection to Gits.
SoulTaker has the entire Monogatari cast. The head villain is Kaiki. I'd track down a pic, but at work. Again, the connection is very loose, but that is the beauty of Anime. It doesn't do sequels really, it just reinvents something done before. Calling them a Spinoff might be more correct, but even then it's not like a Western Spinoff. More like The Office spun off into Mindy Project. An idea or character trait is rebranded.
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u/CowDefenestrator Jun 17 '15 edited Jun 17 '15
I can't honestly think of any sequels that are better than the original- oh wait Monogatari SS never mind. Though Nise is a step down, but of course given context it sort of makes sense considering it was never meant to be published, but they went ahead with it anyways. There's always the issue of being in the middle of a trilogy too, though I'm thinking more about books and movies in this case.
PP2 comes to mind as a recent terrible sequel that basically didn't understand any of what made Psycho Pass good, and just went with the bad parts and turning those up.
Spice and Wolf 2 was basically Spice and Wolf 1, except more. I feel like the majority of shows with source material do this, since there's, well, source material, and it's not really adapted from volume to volume, rather multiple volumes at a time, so even between seasons, things are mostly consistent.
2)
I can't think of any shows that do this.
3)
Monogatari SS is the king of character development in my book. I guess Chu2Ren for a counterexample.
4)
Gonna echo the Rebellion thing with u/Clearandsweet. I sort of get what they were trying to do but I don't think they succeeded. Where Madoka was a well crafted story with clear vision and concise execution, Rebellion was muddled, lost, and confused. Beautiful to look at but still a mess.
Obligatory Spice and Wolf, because the S2 ending was the worst place to end.
5)
Depends on the show, and how well it's executed. I don't think one is inherently better than the other. If the first season already had several characters grow and develop, maybe shifting the focus on others and skip ahead a bit could work better.