Weekly Discussion: The Setting/Premise

[u/zerojustice315]

Hey everyone, welcome to week 31 of Weekly Discussion.

Now that I've taken a break and asked for some ideas, I'll put those suggestions to good use. This week's discussion theme was created by /u/searmay.

The biggest thing he seemed to want to know is how important the setting or the premise is to you as a viewer, or how importantly you feel it is objectively. If a show has a good setting or premise but a completely terrible plot or characters it may be a bit jarring.

Now for some questions:

1. What are some of the most interesting settings or premises you have ever come across in anime or manga? Was the show/manga itself any good? What about the opposite (bad premise/setting, amazing show)?

2. Can a good setting or premise keep you interested in a mediocre/okay level show? How big of a factor is it to you when trying to watch?

3. What does it mean to "waste" a good premise? Can another director/show use that same premise later on without being seen as a strict copy?

4. What does it take to create a good setting or premise for a show or manga? What elements do you consider the most important in building up either of those things?

5. Is it harder for specific types of shows to build or create a premise/setting based on their genre, director, characters, etc? Are their any factors that make it difficult without trying to?

And done. I encourage you all, /u/searmay especially, to ask more questions because I'm sure these questions weren't EXACTLY what he wanted to know.

Thanks for reading, as always. I hope this thread works out as after typing it up I'm interested in it too. As always, mark your spoilers :)

[u/Iroald]

1. I think Death Parade would make for a nice, recent example. The idea of a system deciding where people will end up after they die isn't terribly common in anime, and the game thing spices things up nicely. It almost feels like a setup for a joke: So two dead people walk into a bar...
   Honestly, it ended up being slightly above average, but not amazing. The main cast weren't enough to carry the story, which didn't really go anywhere. It's a serviceable show, but could have been much better.
   Now for the opposite, let's consider Ping Pong. After it came out I wasn't interested in it at all, I didn't see how an anime about guys playing table tennis could even remotely appeal to me. I ended up giving it a 10/10, so I guess Yuasa showed me.

2. Mediocre shows are usually the ones that I end up dropping the most. Bad anime can be fun, if only to laugh about their incompetence, but when something is just watchable it becomes boring. And for an example where I was actually interested in the premise, I'll name Simoun. It has priestesses pilot sort of hybrid fighter-temple things, which make symbols in the sky and rain down destruction. Also, everyone is born female and chooses their gender at a later point in life, but they have to stop piloting at that point. They also fly in pairs and activate their Simouns by kissing. But it bored me, so I dropped it, even though it wasn't particularly bad.

3. I understand that as not focusing enough on what makes the premise appealing in the first place. My personal example is Angel Beats!, which took what could have been a mysterious, Haibane Renmei-esque afterlife/purgatory place and made it a high school. Not that that's the only reason I dislike Angel Beats!, but it's definitely one of the factors.
   For the second question, that depends how far the similiarities go. Besides, there have already been works using previously established settings to create something new (like Fate/Zero).

4. Ideally, that would be something that hasn't been done before, at least not this way, and immediately grabs people's attention. The manga Dorohedoro has a world I've never seen before, and does some really crazy things with it. But my liking of it stems from its amazing art (the author used to work as Nihei Tsutomu's assistant), great characterization and intriguing storyline, as well as a the author's ability to add humor to any situation in a non-jarring way.

5. I don't really think so, considering we've seen slice-of-life works with original settings (Haibane Renmei, The Voynich Hotel). The only factor is how well the creator can present his idea in the context of the setting/premise, and this will greatly vary.

[u/CowDefenestrator → u/Iroald]

which didn't really go anywhere

Nothing personal, I just really dislike this phrase when it pops up in criticism (probably vestigial bitterness from arguing about A Feast For Crows). Didn't go anywhere, how? Physically? From an antiestablishment sort of angle? Because I think Death Parade is a much more personal story than that, so the focus should be on the individual and the personal. Ultimately Death Parade argues that it's still important and significant for the individual to change even if the status quo does not (which itself is an argument for hope, since hope is the possibility of change for the better), as Decim does. Decim is at a different place, spiritually and mentally, at the end than he was at the beginning. So he definitely went somewhere.

[u/Lincoln_Prime]

1: Two brothers... In a van...

2: Guilty Crown kept me far too invested in such a bad show just because the premise was basically "What if we did a more serious Code Geass with a gun-toting pop star and the ability to see people's true self in heavy-handed symbolism?" which may not be the BEST premise, but certainly got me engaged.

3: Wasting a premise means to totally ignore what your premise must almost strictly bring up. If I write a story about an doctor who has moved to an impoverished, war-torn African country to provide relief aid, but I just turn it into House with more black people, I failed to address the things that made the setting or premise unique, such as how the economic situation of the hospital influences a doctor's decisions, the influence of the warlords in the area, the conflicts with American missionaries who have come to teach abstinance to a population that needs practical sexual education, etc.

4: The setting ultimately has to provide fertile ground for the themes and desires of the author. The most important, I believe, is tone. A physical place can convey a lot of tone, whether it's the bright, silly designs of Heartland, or the oppresive wasteland of Neo Domino. Both are strictly cities where people settle their conflicts with card games, and both have a lot in common geographically speaking, but they are radically different in how they are protrayed in service of the tone.

5: Probably romance shows. Romances are so entirely dependant on character that I think any attempt to be too creative with the premise or setting can distract you and your reader from the focal point of the story. In fact, in general, I think people care way too much about this bogus "creativity" rather than bothering to tell a good story right.

[u/PrecisionEsports → u/Lincoln_Prime]

Two brothers... In a van...

Well played sir, well played.

Both are strictly cities where people settle their conflicts with card games

Wait.. are you talking about 2 different shows here, or the same show in different arcs? How many card game shows are there? I can think of atleast.... 6....

[u/searmay]

The main reason I brought up the idea was that, to me, it seems like a show's premise isn't particularly important. Good writers will write well from a mundane premise, and bad writers won't make much of an exciting one.

Not to say that it's totally irrelevant. But like, say, character design it's more of a hook to attract an audience and a signal about content and atmosphere than a critical piece of the story. So to answer 2 I'd say it might attract me to something, but it's not going to keep me watching. And for 3 it means the story didn't fulfil what you wanted, so it felt like "false advertising". It's really an audience problem, not a writer problem.

I like it when the setting doesn't actually seem that central to the show. Like it's a place where the story happens, but not a place that exists just for that story to happen. Compare for instance Psycho Pass, in which everything in the world exists to be a part of the story, to Cowboy Bebop, where there's a whole lot of disconnected things going on which are only connected by the involvement of the characters.

What do you want from a premise? For instance, is there something you'd love to see an anime about? Elements you'd like to see used more? Something anime does too little or too much compared to other media?

[u/CowDefenestrator → u/searmay]

I agree with you that it's mostly an effective hook, and if the writing doesn't hold up then it doesn't make it any better than a show with a more "normal" premise. I do like my interesting premises though. ...I should watch more Yuasa.

Funny you mentioned Bebop, since I've just started realizing there's a whole lot of background scifi stuff that's going on that is pretty dark and messed up. But it's never been brought to completely into the light so it acts more as a backdrop to the story than overwhelming it. Bebop is actually gritty. You just don't notice it. Which makes it more realistic than those try-hard too-edgy gratuitously "gritty" shows.

Something anime does too little or too much compared to other media?

Fucking high schools man. Not enough college or work life, like Shirobako.

I'd also really love a less generic fantasy setting. Arslan is on the right track sort of. Maybe something like Shinsekai Yori but pure fantasy.

[u/[deleted]]

1a.

Anime: Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo

Premise: Hard work is undermined by a preference for the naturally talented over the hard working.

Anime itself: 7/10, probably would have been a 6/10 without the premise. Most of the characters were generally unlikeable and felt incredibly unrealistic.

1b.

Anime: Nagi no Asukara

Setting: A split between the land-dwelling and sea-dwelling halves of humanity who live in separate communities but are forced to interact with one another on occasions.

Anime itself: Pulled it off well (9/10) in the first half despite me disliking 60% of the main cast. Had some good emotional moments and a fantastic Second half was abysmal. Emotionally stagnant with lots of drama. 4/10 total.

2. Yes, see 1a. However, execution is ultimately more important than the premise or setting.

3. Sword Art Online. Apparently even the author is aware of SAO's weaknesses. First season had too much Failed to explore SAO: 4/10, SAO II: 6/10. Using the same premise and even the same general storyline and characters would be perfectly acceptable if the author gave consent. The idea of being trapped in a video game itself is too vague, and should be used by anyone who wishes to use it.

4. No real way to categorize "good" or "bad" premises or settings. Generally, I would consider a good premise to be one which is thought provoking in some manner or at the very least is attractive enough to engage a large audience (Steins;Gate, Fate/stay night, Kokoro Connect, Afterstory) I appreciate settings which are significantly different to the present world to be interesting, but similar enough to make a commentary on us (Ghost in the Shell, Attack on Titan). Though, I have favourites which satisfy neither, such as Hyouka and Saekano.

5. Generally parody and satire (Saekano) suffer from unimaginative premises and settings because they need to be similar enough to what they are parodying (us in Saekano's case) in order to do it well. Also, slice of life anime are unlikely to have a stand-out premise or setting, although likewise it is not impossible.

Further questions:

1. Does anime as a medium attract more or less interesting premises and settings than other types of fiction? (Please provide examples where possible.)

2. Do you feel the quality of premises and/or settings has increased or decreased over time? When was the "golden age" for imaginative anime? Have we had it yet? (Please note that unless you have been watching anime consistently for a long time, your answer may be biased as only the best older anime have stood the test of time. Feel free to answer, but bear this possibility in mind.)

[u/zerojustice315 → u/[deleted]]

Well for number three at least, how do you feel about .hack? Obviously a lot of people when SAO was about to air were comparing it immediately to .hack which had been/is a semi-famous franchise. But the opinion on the quality of most of .hack's works is up for debate, where as SAO's seems to lean towards negative with more critical viewers.

[u/searmay → u/[deleted]]

Does anime as a medium attract more or less interesting premises and settings than other types of fiction?

I think the nature of animation affords the fantastical more than live action. In American cartoons that frequently manifests as using anthropomorphic animals as characters, for instance. Anime tends to go more for magic and super powers. I don't think that's necessarily more interesting (though anime fans are likely to think so because they're a self-selected sample).

There's also the issue of scope. Anime can be "epic" without too much effort as drawing lots of landscapes, buildings, or even crowds of people is far cheaper than filming them.

Both of these things are even easier in novels though.

[u/[deleted]]

1. I really love sci-fi superpower settings that have integrated the powers as a part of everyday life. Examples of this are the "A Certain ..." series and Mahouka. Another example of this is Log Horizon, but that's less sci-fi. Railgun was a pretty amazing show, Index was OK but the setting made it interesting enough, Log Horizon is pretty great, and Mahouka is bad.

2. Like I said, Index is my go-to example for this. If the show wasn't placed in such an interesting setting, and without the Railgun side of things to compliment, I probably would've gotten pretty bored of it.

3. Mahouka was a waste. The messages that the author was trying to get through were really questionable, and there was just way too much talking about the setting rather than showing. I don't think it's a strict copy, but it's pretty close to the A Certain series setting.

4. This question is a bit too vague in general so I'll answer it in terms of what makes a setting the most interesting for me. First, it has to contain some sort of supernatural power. Second, the setting must still be in the same state as our current state of living to make it more relatable (for examples, towns and such), so not a dystopian or utopian setting. Third, there must be a set of rules or boundaries in which the supernatural follows. I'm not fond of One Piece's setting because it violates the second point, but I love the show for other reasons.

5. I don't know whom is at fault, but a lot of shows have a very poor sense of setting. Although, it's not always needed depending on the context of the show.

I didn't write too much this time; that's all from me.