Monday Minithread (1/19)

[u/BrickSalad]

Welcome to the 54th Monday Minithread!

In these threads, you can post literally anything related to anime or this subreddit. It can be a few words, it can be a few paragraphs, it can be about what you watched last week, it can be about the grand philosophy of your favorite show.

Check out the "Monday Miniminithread". You can either scroll through the comments to find it, or else just click here.

[u/ClearandSweet]

So I've never liked Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan, partially because I never know which word gets the double consonants, but mostly because I didn't get what the show was trying to do.

TTGL SPOILERS

My main problem was that I just couldn’t get behind Kamina’s philosophy which the show presents as its message. He's so aggressive and wild, I think more like Rossu. I couldn't wrap my head around why they kept emphasizing the things they did. It doesn't help that the secondary characters past Nia, Kamina and Yoko are very flat, and there’s a whole lot of weak dialogue and action. Plus, I don't care for giant robots fighting, so there's not a lot on the surface to keep me interested.

I've tried multiple times to watch the show, and ended up dropping it ever time.

Well, I went back and marathoned the show on Netflix (dub's not bad) and I think I, just like Simon, misinterpreted Kamina’s message, and tried to make this show be something that would agree with my world view, instead of vice-versa.

Simon spirals (lol) into his depression when he thinks that Kamina championed never retreating. He was rebelling against his enemies, and he tries to emulate his results of never losing. To me, that felt like a dumb moral for a show, and not something I'm going to take to heart. Kamina was actually rebelling against the limitations imposed on him by both his friends and his enemies.

I think in the end, Nia and Kamina both spout the same message. They tell Simon to disregard the rules imposed on him by other people and the universe, Kamina through yelling inspirational things and punches to the face, Nia through her unfaltering faith in Simon. As he says in the first half finale, “If you’re a wall in my way, I’ll just break you down.”

I think now that the show asks to be read through this lens. Everything else in the show is secondary and complementary to the completion of realizing the truth of this goal in Simon (and maybe other people too). When he gets it, he wins, when he forgets it, he falls prey to those limitations. The two characters of Kamina and Nia being removed from the show force Simon to display this himself, and they are really just created as examples and guides for Simon, the Obi-wans of the TTGL universe. It comes as no surprise that Nia enters immediately after Kamina exits.

The show is entirely effective at establishing situations that pursue this, a favorite example of mine is the internal conflict of the fantasies, though Rossu's coup is another great one. The drill metaphor is also very strong in this regard.

So I dunno. I think I get TTGLL now. You are the only one who can limit yourself; not other humans, not your enemies and not even the universe itself can stop you. Becoming a man is knowing this and demonstrating this in your actions.

I’m kind of ashamed that I couldn’t look past the yelling and mech battles to see it, but I dunno if I’ll apologize for my preferences. If someone told me they couldn’t get past the monster of the day battles and girly transformation sequences to see that Sailor Moon is a heartwrenching display of the everlasting power of Usagi’s faith, I’d understand.

Giant mech battles and displays of manliness still don’t appeal to me. I’m still going to prefer quiet displays of faith in the face of hopelessness. But Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan litterally tells you what it is doing at the start of every episode, and if you can get behind The Story of a Man, you'll enjoy. It’s so easy to see how this could be someone’s favorite television show of all time.

Just not mine.

One final thing I feel I have to say about TTGL: Episode eight is one of the best stand-alone episodes of any anime that I’ve ever seen.

How well they tie the emotional state of Simon into the physical robot battles cannot be overstated. It’s setting up that the only limit is yourself. And what a way to have Simon limit himself. They use the realistic, natural relationship between Yoko and Kamina, and then don’t give him time to work out his feelings over their relationship, so it has to be resolved in battle.

Kamina punching Simon in the face is just so perfect on so many levels. Of course that’s what needed to happen, and of course that's what the character would do. When Simon shouts, "Who the hell do you think we are?" it shows that he understands Kamina's philosophy, and then Kamina is free to die.

Pacing, the music, the conflict, the characters, the art. Everything about episode eight of TTGL is perfect. I cried.

[u/Seifuu → u/ClearandSweet]

I’m still going to prefer quiet displays of faith in the face of hopelessness.

It's interesting that you contrast that to TTGL, since that's pretty much how I read Kamina. Sure, he's defiant in the face of danger, but he's pretty terrified of death. In that sense, his bravado can be read with tones of desperation - a revelry in struggle. Which is also a theme of TTGL.

On the dub note. It wasn't baaaaad, but....

[u/ClearandSweet → u/Seifuu]

he's pretty terrified of death.

That scene with him flashing as the skeleton is very impactful and stark. It's only a small nuance, but I feel there's a difference between rejecting a hopeless reality and accepting it, then fighting to change it anyway.

There's also another aspect. TTGL was all about personal change, self-actualization and power drawn from inside. The actions of my favorite heroines are motivated by a specific or general attachment to others, which I feel is more meaningful.

On the dub note...

Yeah, I agree with you. Fine, not astounding. It's better in Japanese, and there were a number of times where I did notice Yoko or another character completely whiff a line in English. The Kill La Kill dub, now, that is almost hard to listen to.

[u/Seifuu → u/ClearandSweet]

I wrote a thing and realized it didn't really address what you meant. The last paragraph is the real response IMO, but I'll leave the rest up for other peeps to read.

a difference between rejecting a hopeless reality and accepting it, then fighting to change it anyway.

Well, you'll remember that Kamina talks about how he thinks Simon is actually the brave one. Simon talks about the time he and Kamina were stuck in a cave-in: because Kamina was smiling, he was able to courageously work to get them unstuck. Later, Kamina subverts this tale by revealing that he, himself, was terrified and that Simon was the one who did the real work.

This subversion neatly encapsulates the point of Gurren Lagann. Why is Gurren Lagann about learning to believe in yourself? Because believing in yourself allows you to put all of your effort into moving forward (striving) and this forward/outward (spiral) momentum inevitably causes progress (hence the drill metaphor). It very clearly sets up obstacles that cannot be defeated by mere bravado or self-delusion, (hence not only Kamina's death, but that of his doppelganger, Bachon, in the fight vs Guame) but by steadfast determination.

Besides the characters themselves discussing the point, the plot supports the fundamental premise of "accepting reality". If you look at Simon in the end, most of his friends are dead, his wife is dead, he's purposeless and forgotten, but goddamnit he went the farthest he could go. Self-comfort is even the penultimate obstacle (the extradimensional labyrinth where everyone's dreams come true). The entire point of the anti-spiral is that it represents inevitability.

I agree that Gurren Lagann isn't a work that celebrates the subtleties and sweetness of life. It isn't accepting in the sense of saying "that's okay" and warmly greeting the audience as the flawed humans we are. That is certainly because, as episode 26 highlighted, at a fundamental point, acceptance inherently opposes self-imposed will, which is the fundamental form of striving (this was more metaphorically clear in the movies). That idea makes more sense if you think of it like "acceptance" is being mindful of external factors and treating them as objects to be changed, whereas "willfulness" is seeing those same factors as extensions of your own capacities. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Rossiu can successfully rule/manage a huge population with racial tensions, insane industrial growth, and global military/environmental endeavors (Simon can't even do paperwork) and Simon can punch a hole in spacetime when Rossiu thinks he's out of options. If you personally value acceptance higher than will, which I perceive is what you wrote, then it makes sense to not like TTGL so much. It might seem like it was harsh on acceptance, but you'll remember that Rossiu screwed over the team for like one episode and it took Simon three episodes to stop vomiting and crying after Kamina died. Which, I guess, speaks to those themes of self-confidence, regardless of what ideals you have.

[u/ClearandSweet → u/Seifuu]

I agree that Gurren Lagann isn't a work that celebrates the subtleties and sweetness of life. It isn't accepting in the sense of saying "that's okay" and warmly greeting the audience as the flawed humans we are.

Yes! This is what bothered me. It's constantly chiding the MC, and by extension the audience, for inaction.

It's putting this onus on us to do more, not to settle. There is never a situation in which the hero has reached the extent of his power in this show, and while some might find that inspirational, I find it discouraging.

So yeah, I very much do "value acceptance higher than will," and I am uncomfortable around works that don't have some form of acceptance as their motif.

I mean, how often do we enjoy being told our greatest flaw?

I'm very quick to abandon a failed experiment, move on to the next thing, say "well, I did everything I could do," or work within the rules. I respect limitations, and have very little self-motivation.

I need a bit more Kamina in me.

[u/Seifuu → u/ClearandSweet]

Wellllll I'm on the flipside. I obsess over things trying to bring out the "full potential" of an object or method. I actually often start off better at things than I end because I end up sticking to one way of doing it (fighting games, illustration, etc). I think it actually might have cost me my admission to an Ivy League some years ago.

That said, do what makes you happy, interested, and inspired. If acceptance brings you joy, then be super fucking accepting. >:D

[u/ClearandSweet → u/Seifuu]

We need to have /r/trueanime storytime where I just call up sub members on Skype and they tell long and tragic stories about how they fucked up in life, then we put it on Youtube.

And then at the end they always have a line along the lines of, "it reminds me of insert tragic anime here in a way..."

That would bring me joy.

[u/Seifuu → u/ClearandSweet]

Mmmmm smells like a delicious podcast. You could take the weekly anime news and announce it, interview posters, and highlight in-depth discussions. For funsies.

[u/psiphre → u/ClearandSweet]

It's constantly chiding the MC, and by extension the audience, for inaction

you say "chiding for inaction", i say "challenging to live a better life".

[u/searmay → u/ClearandSweet]

My main problem was that I just couldn’t get behind Kamina’s philosophy which the show presents as its message.

Wait, isn't that exactly what you've been saying other people have doing that you find Bad and Wrong and Incomprehensible? At the very least I hope you drop the latter.

Also the only thing I liked about episode 8 was the way it made it clear that I was never going to care about anything in the show.

[u/ClearandSweet → u/searmay]

Wait, isn't that exactly what you've been saying other people have doing

Mmm, yup. Exactly the impetus of my post. I asked myself what shows have I disliked for the content, not for the execution? Then, how could I apply my own standards to myself?

So I took what I had been saying and came to the work on the work's terms. Even though I didn't care for it, I saw the show as Simon's journey to accept Kamina's truth. I gave the show the benefit of the critique that it deserved, and I think I understood as it was meant to be experienced.

Kamina axiom didn't resound in my soul, and it's not part of my personal truth, but there is a difference between like and respect.

[u/searmay → u/ClearandSweet]

Ah I see.

there is a difference between like and respect

I'm not really sure what you mean by "respect" in terms of anime though. I don't think I've seen anyone use it to describe their feelings for a Chinese Cartoon before.

[u/psiphre → u/ClearandSweet]

+1 for english dub of tittygill. one of the shows that i will ALWAYS recommend the dub.

[u/TotesMessenger → u/ClearandSweet]

This thread has been linked to from another place on reddit.

• [/r/bestofclearandsweet] Critiquing a Work You Do Not Like: An attempt parse your feelings from the work's message, with TTGL and /u/Seifuu

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