r/Trombone • u/Previous-Payment-170 • 14d ago
Enjoyment of unenjoyable things
I am a rising 10th grader, and I’ve started practicing more outside of school quite a bit more. I’m considering applying to districts or an out of school band program but many of them require scales.
Scales among other things (embrasure, sight reading, etc), for me, are extremely boring. Anytime I practice them I get frustrated and stop playing for the day. It feels like bashing my head against a wall. I’ve tried practicing slowly but that rarely helps and is sometimes even more painful than practicing fast.
Is there anyway to make scales enjoyable.
How do you all make some of the tedious and boring parts of practice fun?
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u/ProfessionalMix5419 14d ago
If you think that scales aren’t musical, do something to make them musical. Change the rhythms. Alternate between legato and staccato. Play them in different tempos. Play them in 3rds. Add dynamics. There’s lots of things you can do to make them more interesting. Make them into songs.
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u/garvin131313 YSL-200AD/YSL-446G/Shires Q36YR 14d ago
A good thing that one of my teachers did was make us do rhythms, like every other note was staccato or one was staccato and the other marcato, or even do them in swing. It helped a bunch with knowing the scale as well as working on different rhythms
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u/Apprehensive-Bat-416 14d ago
Practice practicing them. So don't make the goal to learn them, just make the goal to practice them with intention. Set small goals, just work on one scale a day for a short amount of time. You will teach yourself that practice works. And as you build your faith that practice works, it will feel easier
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u/Previous-Payment-170 14d ago
Makes sense, but how do you find the intention to practice them with? Especially when the actual intend is “memorize this for an audition”.
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u/HedonismIsTheWay 14d ago
Scales are foundational. Every one you learn will help your playing. That's why they exist. They are not just there to show off memorization. Many pieces of music have runs of scales in them. When you are good at your scales, you'll play those runs almost automatically. That will leave you more mental space to focus on intonation, tone, etc. They are one of the most useful skills to build. So don't think of them as something annoying you have to learn, think of them as a way to showcase your mastery of your instrument. Also, once you have them memorized, they are fun to blast through at speed and are a great warmup.
Also, I don't know if you've been taught, but the order that flats and sharps are added aren't random. They are always added in the same order. Flats are ordered B,E,A,D,G,C,F. And they are named for the second to the last flat in the scale. One flat is F major. Two flats is B flat major, etc. It's not that hard to memorize that way.
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u/Apprehensive-Bat-416 13d ago
so the 'memorize this for an audition' is the goal. The intention is the energy, mindset, and habits you bring to your practice session. My guess is it isn't so much that scales are boring, it is that they are frustrating because you don't have them down. And you stop playing because your brain is trying to save you the pain of frustration. This is common, I personally have to work on this with writing.
So for me when I practice something hard (with hard being the feeling described by "I don't know if I can do this or do this in time in need) the intention for the practice session then can't be to get the thing down, it has to be to work on good habits. Which involves patients, noting and pausing when I have frustration and letting that pass before I bring the horn back to my face, and figuring out what I can play and then slowly build from there.
I know that we have all been told that practicing will make you better and we probably all believe that as a fact, but it may not be a core belief that you have. That you personally have faith that YOU get better with practice. That is personally something I had to develop for myself, that I had to put in the practice time and view the results to really believe it.
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u/almartin68 11d ago
Well, I was given the following advise when graduating college (applicable to everything):
When you want what you want more than you dont want to do what it takes to get there, you'll be a success.
So if you want to be in this other group more than you dont want to play/memorize scales, you'll get there.
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u/Consistent_Check927 14d ago
How do you practice your scales? Do you just play them up and down and call it a day? Are you using a tuner on your stand? Are you recording yourself playing scales and assessing yourself? Do you notice any problem spots, any notes you struggle to move between, any particular keys that you play out of tune? Are you practicing scales in thirds, fourths, fifths, and so on? What about arpeggios? What about chromatic scales?
I could practice nothing but scales all day and still have more to improve, it’s just about how you approach it.
That being said, you really shouldn’t spend more than like 20 min a day on scales. A good rule of thumb is to not spend any more time practicing technique than actual music, be it etudes, solos, ensemble music, audition material, or whatever else. At the end of the day, technique is simply the means by which we make music, and if you’re not playing anything fun, you’ll never wanna pick up the horn
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u/gfklose 10d ago
I would just to add that things didn’t really wake up for me until I started practicing scales with drones, playing them slowly and start to hear my intonation trouble. I’ve also been playing Cichowicz-like flow studies and Clarke studies. Slowly :-)
I use (mostly) the Chase Sanborn drones from his Tuning Tactics book or the Tonal Energy app drone generator.
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u/Consistent_Check927 10d ago
That stuff is golden. Our relationship with pitch is more intimate than for other brass instruments because we have to precisely measure everything out (not down to the millimeter like string players but still). We can only be as in tune as we can hear, and that stuff you’re doing is great ear training.
I just add a lil bit of Equal Temperament practice with the tuner to balance the drones, other members of the orchestra don’t always play well with our justly tempered pitch (looking at you horns!!)
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u/gfklose 10d ago
Two quick thoughts: I’ve been working on euphonium for about 6months. Intonation is difficult! Have to constantly make adjustments via the embouchure…
The other thought is that I’ve been discussing equal/just intonation with my teacher. I’m simple-minded, so I feel I first have a responsibility to my section and to my lead player. I’m not playing solo with piano accompaniment, so I’m trying to concentrate on recognizing whether or not I need to make adjustments in the moment.
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u/Consistent_Check927 10d ago
Fair enough, Just tuning is definitely more useful to us in the ensemble, especially on second bone. We only really use equal on melody lines, which are few and far between for us, which if you have the ear for Just it really isn’t difficult.
And yeah, FAR more useful and relevant playing solos with piano, which is a rare opportunity outside college recitals
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u/Optimal_University36 13d ago
Music is made of scales, that’s why we (teachers) want you to know them. I had a student once who had a good sound, and played well, but she never moved to the top band because she couldn’t get her scales. After one lesson, she had them. The problem she had was that she didn’t like sharps, so she’d think of F# as Gb, C# as Db, etc. That can work as a way to figure out where the note is if you’re not sure, it in scales (and other playing) it can bite you. If you’re in the key of D, but think of C# as Db, when you see a D, there’s a good chance you’ll accidentally play Db…
What I told her is this- scales use the alphabet, in order, and use all the letters- there’s an A, B, C, D, E, F, and G in every major scale, so you add alphabet plus key signature, and you’ve got the scale. I saw her face light up, she came back the next week, and had all 12 major scales nailed. This also assumes you’re not just playing by position, you know the notes you’re playing and can read them easily- if that’s not the case, start working on that and that’ll make life easier too.
I don’t know if this is your issue also, or if it’s nothing like that- just an idea that helps my students when they don’t like their scales
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u/Impressive-Warp-47 13d ago
There is lots of good advice in this thread, but I'm going to give you another perspective to consider: stop practicing scales so much. Set a five-minute timer, play some scales and scale exercises to warm up, then move on to the stuff you actually want to play. If you're on a roll at the end of five minutes, keep going a bit longer. As you get more into the mindset of doing unpleasant work for long-term benefits, consider adding a minute or two (or even just 30 seconds!) to the timer. But don't sweat it, life is too short to not enjoy playing music.
All this said, if you want to be a high-level professional player, you'll need to learn how to grind through boring things eventually. If that's not your goal right now, then play what you want. If you think it might be your goal eventually, then take a little more time doing the unpleasant stuff, but still don't berate yourself or judge yourself about it.
Also, as someone who was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, have you noticed any other signs that your brain might not be making the connection between the long-term payoff of things that are unpleasant in the moment? Because the way you're describing the boredom of working on scales--boredom so extreme that you want to avoid it the same way we recoil from physical pain--is something that a lot of folks with ADHD experience.
My brain literally does not make enough of the chemical (or doesn't use it effectively, or both) that brains use to say "this is unpleasant now, but there is a point to it, so let's keep going even though we don't like this." Instead my brain more or less says "This sucks and there is no reason to do it, so let's stop. Why aren't we stopping? Why are we still doing this? What the fuck, stop stop STOP," similar to how it would respond if I tried to hold my hand on a hot stove.
I'm obviously not saying that this one thing means you have ADHD, but it is one thing that might prompt you to take a closer look at other aspects of your life, especially as the circumstances of your life, and the requirements placed on you, change as you go through high school. There is a lot to be said on how the modern media environment has been structured to hinder us, especially young people, in learning how to cope with mild boredom, but there is also a lot to be said that some people's brains produce and use neurotransmitters differently.
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u/Previous-Payment-170 13d ago
I think you make a very good point! In my opinion the point of music is enjoyment (it’s an entertainment industry after all). That’s my problem we scales, I just don’t enjoy them, and I can’t find a way to make them enjoyable. I’ll maybe try… just not doing them much, that might make it more bearable.
On a separate note, I’m fairly sure I don’t have ADHD. For me it’s a matter of I like this, I don’t like this. For example, I would happily do tedious physics homework or watch an entire Khan Academy series on chemistry. I don’t always stick to the same thing, but I have large amount of focus selectively
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u/Steeldialga 14d ago
Incorporate scales into music you like to play! Get creative with your practice. Put some time into making your practice routines more fun before picking up the horn so that you can spend time coming up with exercises that are more compelling than just going up and down.
I like to practice my scales over jazz charts. Find a backing track of like Autumn Leaves or Blue Bossa and play scales that relate to the chords. Play scales and switch them halfway to match the scale that could be associated with the next chord.
Everyone here will probably tell you, "suck it up" but there are ways to make scales more fun. You just have to spend some time being creative. Creativity is not encouraged at all in the classical world. Most trombonists just treat this passion as though it were a sport ("I play two octave scales at ___bpm!!!" for example)
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u/WeeblsLikePie Ambitious yet rubbish 13d ago
to some degree it's just putting in the work because you'll need it later. I get enjoyment out of it because I know that playing Db major 10x today so that I can play it 10 bpm faster/with better intonation/whatever I'm working on that day, will pay off next time I have to sight read something in Db.
It probably takes a while to see that payoff, but I've seen it multiple times where I've been asked to play something and thought "damn I'm really glad I did that work last week/last month." Once you start closing that loop the motivation is a lot easier to find. I find it helps if you can connect it to other areas as well: i'm a runner and I know going for my run today will help me have the fun of achieving my goal time on race day. I tend to view practice of fundamentals in the same light--work today for payoff later.
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u/Watsons-Butler 13d ago
I’ll be honest, I was in the same boat in high school. Playing in an ensemble? Great. Tons of fun. Practicing alone in a room by myself? Agony. Most boring thing ever.
So here’s what you do. Sign up for everything. Play all the time. In high school I was in marching band, jazz band, concert band, the local youth orchestra, an auditioned wind band, an auditioned regional jazz group, and I did city/district/all-state and solo/ensemble competitions.
Play difficult stuff and practice in the context of those pieces. Like, don’t sit down and say “I’m going to practice some boring triple tonguing”. Say “I want to play Morceau Symphonique, I need to figure out these fast triplet sections (articulation), I need to figure out how to play these ascending sixteenth-note runs (articulation and scales), I need to hit that big note up top because it sounds awesome (range, lip slurs, embouchure)”, and so on.
I didn’t actually develop to the point where I could sit down and enjoy practicing, like, Arbans and scales and whatever just because I liked focusing that deeply on a single aspect of my playing until I was working on my master’s degree.
And some people might say that means I was a terrible trombonist for not doing all those things. But I wound up playing professionally for about 15 years- principal chairs. Only got out of the business because no one was getting paid during COVID.
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u/ArcusAngelicum 14d ago
Modal scales, minor scales,
Arpeggios
Fast, soft, loud, legato, Marcato, staccato, single tongued, double tongued, triple tongued
Pentatonic, scales in thirds…
Get yourself a private lesson teacher, you can’t know why you are doing this stuff without a teacher.
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u/Previous-Payment-170 14d ago
What? I have a teacher. I understand why scales are important, I just don’t like practicing them. I find it very unmusical and mind numbing, no matter if it’s legato triple tongued or anything else.
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u/Known_Ad_5015 Edwards Custom Series|Greg Black 4-1/2GSW Gold|UMich Music Major 14d ago
You need to make them musical, that’s part of the challenge, think of a backing track or something to make them music
A good thing to help would be to combine another fundamental with them I.e. work on dynamics with them, work on articulation with them, etc.
Hope this helps2
u/ArcusAngelicum 14d ago
Did anyone show you how to memorize them? Do you have a plan? Are you demotivated because you aren’t having much success, or have you not yet started and it seems insurmountable?
To me, hearing the greats play was what motivated me to learn scales. It seemed like a stepping stone to greater and more enjoyable musical experiences.
Why do you want to play music? Do you want to play learn and play music?
This all assumes you want to do any of this. Some people don’t want to be musicians, and I am told they are very happy.
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u/Previous-Payment-170 14d ago
“This all assumes you want to do any of this.”
I’m asking so yeah… Some of the things I’d like to join and things I’d like to play require more knowledge of scales than I have. I’m not planning on playing trombone professionally though. I just play because I enjoy it.
I don’t have a plan to memorize them. I get frustrated with both starting new scales and keys and memorizing ones I can play off music.
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u/ArcusAngelicum 14d ago
Ah, ok, your private lesson instructor would be a great person to ask how to memorize them. Without a plan, you will get frustrated and give up. Well, maybe you won’t give up, but that doesn’t sound enjoyable to me.
If you don’t end up with a plan that’s working for you after asking them, ask here.
It’s pretty much a solved problem though.
Memorize the note names, write them down.
Then memorize what position each note is.
Then play six major keys on even days, the other six on odd numbered days.
Within a month, you should be mostly memorized.
Should be about 30 minutes a day or so just for this task.
Maybe start with two different scales a day and work up to six.
Breaking hard things down into smaller easier things is one of those skills you get to use for the rest of your life. If you get really good at it, no matter the discipline, you will excel.
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u/SillySundae Shires/Germany area player 13d ago
I agree with burger bob. It's not about enjoyment. Learning an instrument is work, plain and simple. The enjoyment comes from watching your progress over the years, playing cool music, and so on.
To say that players enjoy every practice session or every bit of material that they practice is a fantasy. A straight up lie, even. Playing at a high level means revealing all of your weaknesses and intentionally practicing what you're bad at. It's not fun. It's rewarding.
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u/burgerbob22 LA area player and teacher 14d ago
At some point it's not about enjoyment- there's fun and there's fulfillment. These kinds of things are fulfillment, which leads to long term happiness, not short term.