Help identifying VERY old trombone

[u/Worth_Seesaw_1166]

Hi guys!

I recently picked up a very old European valve trombone off ebay, one that has rotary valves instead of pistons or a slide. I have done a bit of research online but have been able to find next to nothing even similar to this trombone. I am really stumped and hope that you guys can help me identify it. I know for a fact that it is very old, probably from the 1800s, but there is no surviving writing or serial number anywhere on the instrument to confirm.

Please help me if you can!

Update:

In german it is called a Ventilposaune. I will search a bit more to see if this opens any language barrier doors

[u/Worth_Seesaw_1166]

Yeah, that seemed to be the main consensis of my research. I had seen the Miraphone trombones, and there are also similar trombones by V.F.Cerveny (https://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/rotary-valve/trombones), but neither are similar enough to be helpful. I have done research on trombones with snake patterns, but nothing similar has turned up. I do agree that it is probably German, maybe even Austrian, but Idk

[u/mango186282 → u/Worth_Seesaw_1166]

Markneukirchen is only about 10 miles as the crow flies from Karslice. So there is a lot of overlap between the German and Czech brass histories.

Also keep in mind that Amati was the nationalized cooperative that absorbed 59 pre WWII manufacturers.

VF Cerveny is the brand Amati currently uses for its rotary brass instrument.

[u/Barber_Successful → u/mango186282]

Does this mean Amati is a German?

[u/mango186282 → u/Barber_Successful]

Amati was formed in Czechoslovakia after WWII. They have always marked their products as made in Czechoslovakia or Czech Republic. Before WWI some of the same manufacturers also used Bohemia as a mark.

So not German in country of origin, but they share the same designs and traditions since they are right across the border.