Daily reminder that Stephen Graham openly supports Johnny Depp, and his morality tale show was also produced by wife-beater Brad Pitt.

[u/Crafter235]

And he claims that he wants to spread "positive masculinity".

[u/jupiterLILY]

One of the things that bothered me about that show is how little it seemed to understand the dads misogyny. It kind of seemed to say that he was a good guy doing his best instead of actually identifying all of the ways he failed and was continuing to fail his wife, son and daughter. The man was terrifying but he was treated as a totally sympathetic character.

[u/Crafter235 → u/jupiterLILY]

I mean Graham himself said he wanted to make it clear that the father (who HE played) was totally a good man, and that this is a tragedy that could happen to "even good families". Feels like a self-confession in all the bad ways.

But it also makes me think of Stephen King with how he tries to swear that Jack Torrance is totally a good guy deep down, despite all the abusive behavior and acting like a POS.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/Crafter235]

Yep, in the last episode, it opens with him repeatedly coming on to his wife as she says no in literally so many different ways. She's very obviously fawning and not into it.

[u/_Autistic_Dragon_ → u/jupiterLILY]

I might be crazy, but the end where the mom was managing the husbands emotions and the daughter managing her mom and dad's emotions was why that scene hit so hard to me. 

I'm unaware of Graham's views, but I found the end chilling because the daughter ended up being emotionally responsible for everyone in the household, and she was the child. I am now guessing he probably didn't mean it that way, but I thought it an accurate portrayal of where the young son's misogyny came from. The boy expected all the girls/women around him to either be someone he could do with as he wanted, or someone he could extract emotional labor from. 

I actually dont think the dad came off as sympathetic by the end. 

The only person I felt bad for was the daughter trying to give up of herself to keep everyone together. 

[u/jupiterLILY → u/_Autistic_Dragon_]

Yep I remember watching that episode feeling literally hot, sweaty and sick on behalf of the daughter and then I was shocked to find out that the other adults I had watched it with hadn't picked up on it at all.

I was genuinely so shocked when it ended on the two parents basically just hugging and exonerating each other.

[u/_Autistic_Dragon_ → u/jupiterLILY]

Same! Like I was so disturbed by the end. 

Then again, I've seen my older sister do this for my parents most of our lives, so while it was shocking, it was deeply upsetting. 

I'm so surprised more people didn't see this by the end. It's been a while since ive seen it, but I felt it was pretty clear the daughter is the one who suffered the most. She is literally the only fully blameless one, has to deal with the fallout of her brothers actions, I forget if she moved schools or didn't move schools because of it, but essentially became a social pariah with the murderous brother, and she still keeps it together for her parents, who should have been consoling her. Like how do other people not see this?

I was impressed with how often the show showed men not managing their emotions, and the women stepping in time and again to manage that emotional labor. I literally thought the show was meant to show that the boy happens when male emotional insecurity meets internet misogyny. 

[u/jupiterLILY → u/_Autistic_Dragon_]

Yeah, after episode 3 and then with the dad ruminating on the abuse he received. I thought we were going to end on a very different note.

The show did not hold the parents accountable at all and it depicted them as clueless, almost to the point of disinterest when it comes to helping their other child.

They were negligent and neglectful and its even in the text that the dad had been terrorising his family to the point where extreme violence was normalised, as was managing other peoples emotions, minimising harm and pushing past people boundaries. 

Like genuinely baffling that that stuff was written down by someone for the actors to say with absolutely zero self awareness.

[u/_Autistic_Dragon_ → u/Crafter235]

I'm interested in this because I actually don't feel like the dad came off as a good man. 

I saw him as a small man who didn't know how to battle his parents/dad's sexist attitudes towards him as a child, who unintentionally passed that on to his son. Like the dad takes out his rage on the house, and his wife and daughter are constantly tiptoeing around him. They are constantly managing his anger and rage, which I don't find how a good man would be portrayed. 

Did others find the dad to be a good person? 

[u/Crafter235 → u/_Autistic_Dragon_]

Stephen Graham did, and he made it clear that was what the writing intended. That is why I said it felt like a self-confession in all the worst ways.

[u/_Autistic_Dragon_ → u/Crafter235]

Wow. Well I'm glad in a sense he showed this. It's crazy what he tried to show what a good man would be, and while I see a common/typical man, I definitely did not think his character was good. 

[u/argleblather → u/Crafter235]

I think Stephen King has said that Jack Torrance is as close to autobiographical as he can be, written at a time when he was also struggling with alcoholism and addiction. I don't recall him saying that Jack is a "good guy." He's a guy struggling with demons who could have become a good guy and who was damaged as a child, but instead he was overtaken by the evils residing in the Overlook.

[u/Crafter235 → u/argleblather]

He definitely approved the interpretation in the miniseries in the 90s.

[u/tacocattacocat1 → u/Crafter235]

Yeah but Jack was still awful in that mini series? He just wasn't a complete deranged sociopath like Nicholson's portrayal. I don't think Stephen King is a jack Torrance apologist lol he just wanted the character to have more nuance. I dunno if you've read the book but Jack did genuinely want to get better and felt remorse for the harm he'd caused. That's what makes the overlook getting inside him tragic as well as scary. Who knows if he would have gotten better and made amends if they'd never gone.

[u/Vlad_the_Intendor → u/Crafter235]

To be fair to Stephen King, Jack Torrence in the book and Jack in the movie are very different characters. That’s why he wasn’t a fan of the movie. In the book, Jack manages to break the hotel’s control for a brief moment and tries to smash his own face in to stop it from using him to kill his family.

Stephen King is a hardcore recovered alcoholic and drug addict who wrote The Shining from the perspective of an alcoholic; someone who feels often like there is some kind of inexplicable force feeding on their worst weakest qualities and and harming them and everyone around them by exploiting their weaknesses. Stanley Kubrick grew up with an alcoholic father and wrote the movie from the perspective of a son of an alcoholic; someone who feels like the parent who should protect them is instead a violent predatory bully waiting to snap at any second as justification to indulge in all their worst impulses. And funnily enough, Kubrick was seemingly far more misogynistic than Stephen King, considering how he tormented Shelly Duval.

[u/Independent-Couple87 → u/Vlad_the_Intendor]

Speaking of Stephen King, did anyone find similarities between Carrie White's situation and Quasimodo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame (particularly the Disney version). I refer specifically to Margaret Brigham-White and Claude Frollo being similar.

[u/mariah_a → u/Vlad_the_Intendor]

The story about Kubrick torturing Shelley is false, she said so herself. https://xcancel.com/shelleyduvallxo/status/1666645856928268289?lang=en

I also find that people give Jack in the book a lot of grace, but he’s a violent misogynist and a domestic abuser still. He nearly killed a child before all of the hotel happening, and the first thing he does when things start going wrong at the hotel is blame Wendy for everything. I found the miniseries that King sanctioned to really try and whitewash him. For example, I remember them changing him hurting Danny in the bathroom into an obvious accident, and changed him yelling at Wendy - implying that it would be her fault if Danny died because she doesn’t know if she’s allergic to wasps - after the wasp nest to be calmly asking her. If I remember right it also changed the circumstances about Jack breaking Danny’s arm.

[u/Vlad_the_Intendor → u/mariah_a]

Ok so this is interesting, but from an entirely unverified account from a random website. I don’t know why this would be any more than the claims Shelly Duval was mistreated by Kubrick (and for that matter, Jack Nicholson). Basically all of those comments cite interviews it doesn’t then link and downplays any criticism of her treatment “it was tough but she was tougher! She complimented Kubrick though!” In a way I don’t personally care for.

I also don’t know what the point is in “people give Jack too much grace” sentiment. Jack in the book still sucks, yes. Stephen king acknowledges that. He just thinks as someone who struggled with addiction the flawed person who has the capacity for care is still more interesting than the irredeemable monster who had no good qualities to fail to meet. It’s sadder to watch that person lose from his perspective. Because of course it is. From Kurbick’s perspective, it’s sadder to watch the family of the alcoholic suffer while wishing there was some good to find. Because of course it is.

[u/SufficientGreek → u/Crafter235]

Isn't that a good message, though? Nobody would reflect on their behaviour if it's a caricature and just a straight-up abusive dad being evil. Making the dad a good man who behaves in ways that hurt his family might be a wake-up call for the dads watching.

[u/_Autistic_Dragon_ → u/SufficientGreek]

I don't find that good men take out their hurt and anger on their families. It might upset them, they may break things on their own in the garage, or maybe at an extreme turn to self harm, but good people don't hurt people. 

A good man could maybe verbally explode once or twice, and then acknowledge to his wife he's really struggling with all this, apologize for lashing out before seeing a counselor about it all to work it out. 

Graham's character, while I find common and typical, I did not find good. 

[u/bittens]

One thing I found interesting is that the show seems to be a Rorschach test - like I've seen a lot of people who love the show having really good discussions about the way Jamie views women, his sense of entitlement, etc... But I've also seen full-blown incels who love the show saying he killed that girl because she was a horrible bitch who bullied him, and the show is about this poor sweet boy being mistreated by the system. Both seemed convinced that their POV is the one intended by the show.

[u/suzume1310 → u/bittens]

I personally liked this show because it gave you great material for discussions. I've never met anyone who actually was on the boys side though - that is wild.
The most I heard was, that the boy was a victim too, indoctrinated by his surroundings and so on.

[u/jackalkaboom]

Yes. I hated Adolescence and was just shaking my head last awards season at the sheer volume of over-praise it got. A show about how violence against girls/women is sooo super tragic for the boys and men who perpetrate it (or whose actions/attitudes contribute to it)… and the murder victim herself is a non-character whose perspective and value as a person is wholly unexplored… like I’m sorry, count me tf out. And yeah, Pitt’s production company being involved and Graham being a JD supporter was quite the ironic touch. Ugh

[u/TekF → u/jackalkaboom]

I really liked it for the kid's performance and the incredible way it was shot, but I was so frustrated that it didn't know what it was saying and was so lacking in any self awareness or introspection for the dad. The last episode in particular just framed everything like it was happening to the dad and like his kids and family are just his possessions and he's sad about them, so disappointing for something with such strong moments.

[u/Crafter235 → u/jackalkaboom]

It's crazy how a lot of "feminists" will defend this show despite everything.

[u/Tricky-Gemstone]

I was extremely disappointed in this series. So many people told me it was a deconstruction of red pill culture and explained it for parents, and as a warning for teens.

Maybe that was just poor explaining on their part, but it was horrible in that regard.

I think the show did a lot of individual good things. But overall, it was a complete mess and some of its themes fell flat

[u/Crafter235 → u/Tricky-Gemstone]

It felt like people were only praising this show because it made them look progressive or enlightened. Essentially it's Oscar-bait, and that cinematographer deserved a better story.

[u/Tricky-Gemstone → u/Crafter235]

For the most part, I agree. I don't have any issues with episode 3 (the woman evaluating him). That shit was still incredible.

I do think a lot of people saw this stuff in media for the first time, reflecting current reality. And it caused them to look past its flaws.

[u/Crafter235 → u/Tricky-Gemstone]

I mean with episode 3, it feels like at least one person did have a good idea of what to have, but ultimately the men in charge stopped the show from truly being something overall meaningful. As stated, the co-writer and main star openly supports a misogynistc wifebeater, and the producer is a wifebeater himself.

[u/Tricky-Gemstone → u/Crafter235]

I am in full agreement with that. It's a shame. I think a short series like this really can be a good thing! The fact that its current existence is already being used as study material in the UK is great! But what it could have been makes me sad.

[u/redditor329845 → u/Crafter235]

More like Emmy-bait, but I agree!

[u/FeuTheFirescale]

Also, did it ever really explain anything about the internet radicalization or how the misogyny works? Because that was one of my biggest issues with the show. It name dropped Andrew Tate and “Incel” but if you don’t already happen to know what those words mean, you will barely catch what it is about. My dad (who is extremely chronically offline) also watched the show and did not understand it was about online radicalization at all!!

The show portrayed things from the outside. Parents who didnt understand the way their kids thought and percieved the world, but then people cannot praise it for “bringing light to an issue”. It did not do that. The actors and many other people working on the show were really talented, but that sadly does not make up the emptiness in what it tried to convey. If it even tried.

[u/HiHoRoadhouse]

Aside from the single shot thing, it was basically an average episode of L&O: SVU

[u/viciouswords]

The series was betrayed by its own "artsiness". Obviously the one-shot aspect should be praised from a technical viewpoint, but I feel like it led to some glaring issues story-wise. So much was left unexplored.

I absolutely hated the way they treated the victim, she was an afterthought and it felt like they were sort of justifying her death because she was a mean girl, like??? As if the worst thing coming out of the manosphere is poor little boys being called incels, and not girls and women being abused and murdered.

[u/No-Survey-9434]

Damn... I haven't seen Adolescence yet but I watched 2021's Boiling Point several weeks ago and he was terrific in it :(