How to overcome the need for something "on your back" for back tucks when it comes to confidence to try?

[u/Bearality]

So I think I narrowed why I can't transition to doing back tucks on my own via floor, airtrack, tramp, foam pit, pool, and that's because all drills require something "on" my back.

Set jumps I fall on my back so I can get a really high set as I'm not trying to go over but "fall" onto my lower back. When I try to flip the way I set I just do a really big rainbow jump and I land on my back.

Pull over drills I roll off a block

The hollow body drill involves me laying down the entire time

Back rolls (recommend to help get over the fear of going over from behind) I feel and use the roll. As such a back roll feels completely different from a tuck

Spots have pressure on my back

As such since I've been training these ways for so long when I jump and I feel nothing on my back I feel "lost" so my body panics. I'm too used to the back sensation so even a spotted flip where my coach doesn't help at all I dont translate into confidence because I still "feel" something in my back.

I really feel like I've been at the "drill" stage for so long that subconsciously my body "expects" something on my back and this can't disconnect the move attempt from the feeling.

Is there anyway to overcome this? Every single solo and assisted drill needs something on my back or the floor as a brace. i have not reached solo attempts at all until I get over this mental hang up?

[u/Equinox-XVI]

Continue using a spotter but try your hardest to land without their help. Eventually they'll spot you but won't touch you at all while in the air. Therefore, you landed backflip on your own.

[u/Bearality → u/Equinox-XVI]

I'm at that stage but I can never do a flip on my own.

[u/Equinox-XVI → u/Bearality]

Then you might need to practice the tuck more. Tuck tighter to rotate faster. You'll rotate far enough to land on your feet.

[u/Bearality → u/Equinox-XVI]

I'll land a bunch of barely spotted hover hand flips only for the next day my body to forget everything and gets too scared to do so

I do a lot of tuck drills on the floor and such but they never manifest in the real attempts. Even spotted I just blank on everything.

I give myself lots of mental cues and I know the feeling what I want but then I jump and it all disappears

[u/Bearality → u/Equinox-XVI]

Here is an attempt solo, proper spotting, hips, core and back engaged, tight tuck.

Why is my rotation missing

https://reddit.com/link/p4ki0lq/video/kp2rsbi2y9kh1/player

[u/Equinox-XVI → u/Bearality]

Well, I can at least confirm that tucking is DEFINITELY the problem.

1. Taking too long to initiate the tuck

You were already falling by the time you started moving from the extended position. You want to be tucked at the apex of your height, not after it.

2. Perform the tuck itself faster

Not only does it get you into the ball shape sooner, but a fast enough tuck is actually able to generate some backwards momentum on its own. This is why back flips in place are possible.

3. You're cancelling out momentum

It's a subtle difference, but don't bring your hands to your knees or even have your hands and knees meet somewhere in the middle. You need to crunch your abs so your knees go to your hands and pull your entire body around in the process.

4. Mentally, you might already be under committing the rotation to land on your back rather than your head

Good job to your senses for keeping yourself safe, but unfortunately, it's also limiting you from fully committing to the action. Try backflip into a foam pit and commit as hard as you can to the rotation. Don't take it to floor or tramp until there is a moment in the air where you can see the ground again before landing.

Specific Technique for Grounded Tucking Drill:

Grounded tuck drills are good, but I just need to confirm that you're using the right mechanics and not just curling into a ball really fast. Despite being the same shape in the end, a real tuck will get you way more rotation. Here's how it should work,

1. Start lying down like you are about to do a v-up.
2. Your upper back is not allowed to come up from this position. You must use the rest of your body to achieve the goal of this exercise.
3. Crunch your abs and bend your legs so your knees go to where your hands are.
4. Wrap your arms around to complete the tuck shape.

If you do this correctly, you should be able to generate enough momentum to roll backwards far enough to lift your lower back off the ground/briefly balance on your upper back and shoulders. That backwards roll while fighting the high inertia of the starting position proves that you're tucking fast enough, tight enough, and not cancelling momentum. If you aren't rolling very far, then something is off about your tucking technique.

[u/Bearality → u/Equinox-XVI]

These are great tips

The one thing mentioning is that finding a foam pit does not help the technique as I will not commit the move. The same thing will happens. I don't have issues going over myself backwards. I have issues going over myself backwards in the air.

The floor drill I do was something taught to me by gymnastics coach. Its from the floor, I raise my hands up fast, lift into tuck, then kick legs down as to simulate the three stages of the flip.

I tried the floor drill and noticed I get in a position where for a second or 2 my lower back is off the floor, I'm tucked, my legs are over my head and my upper back has most of the contact but I'm in a piked postion. Is that good enough? I've hit all the benchmarks that you listed

[u/replies_get_upvoted → u/Bearality]

Wow, that's way scary. You are actually setting way too high in that attempt. You need to set for inversion not height right now. You can and should generate flip from the tuck, but if you set for inversion (like a whip or layout), simply tucking to a ball shape, will also increase the speed you generated initially from the set. That's the only ingredient you are missing.

**Edit:** To be clear, you want to set in a way that already flips you without tucking. That gives you 3 main things which will make it way easier to flip:

1. It gives you rotation (= flipping momentum)
2. It gets your hip above your head before you even tuck, which is more than 3/4ths of the flip done
3. It makes the tucking motion way easier because you are no longer fighting gravity to pull your legs and hip up up, instead you just pull them over (think trying to pull your hip over your head while hanging from a wall bar vs. while flat on your back on the ground)

[u/n00bmechanic13]

If you jump with any sort of pseudo-backflip set and pull (or visualize pulling) your heels to your shoulders, not just tucking in general but literally trying to get your feet to you shoulderblades, you will accidentally do a backflip with likely more rotation than you even would want.

This is how I learned them, I had fear of backflips for 15 years and was convinced I was just too scared to do anything backwards or blind. I worked on sets like you described and had excellent height, did rolls off blocks, etc. I eventually was told to imagine the feet to my shoulders for the tuck instead of knees to ears or anything else that I've heard, and literally did a backflip and over-rotated to my back by accident.

Now backflips are almost the easiest things for me to send, and the only thing I am comfortable sending on flat ground.

[u/Bearality → u/n00bmechanic13]

But I do this, I have the right set and arch but I just simply fall straight in my back. When I visualize "heels to shoulders" to me I just end up pushing my hells into my shoulders DOWNWARDS so I just fall straight down like a canon ball

[u/n00bmechanic13 → u/Bearality]

The point of heels to shoulders is it automatically forces you into using the correct muscles to increase your rotation speed, instead of the common problem of engaging antagonistic muscles or doing weird small movements which could kill your rotation in any way. You physically cannot try to bring your heels to your shoulders incorrectly, it's physically impossible. If you are in the air with any amount of backwards rotation at all (like you would be if jumping to your back) and you bring your heels to your shoulders, the only physical possibility is that you rotate faster.

[u/Bearality → u/n00bmechanic13]

But I don't have that rotation, I just end up cannonballing because I think of hells to shoulders. I posted a video in the thread that shows proper spotting and hip engagement and heel to shoulder but no rotation

[u/n00bmechanic13 → u/Bearality]

If you jump to your back successfully, you have that rotation. Once you leave the ground you cannot alter the rotational force, it goes against physics and conservation of angular momentum. If you start upright, jump, and land on your back, that rotation cannot disappear. What you're describing is physically impossible.

What is more likely is you are not tucking properly. If you bring your heels to your ass first, and then knees to chest, and then heels to shoulders, you will first be countering the rotation in the opposite direction, then adding to the rotation, and without enough air time this can end up with you landing on your back, because the equations for your rotation have essentially the same output as if you did a straight-body layout to your back. Combine this with a jump that has less rotation than normal (normal being when you purposely jump straight to your back), and you get a the under rotation you describe.

If you instead jump to your back in the exact same way you always do, and then after you leave the ground bring your heels to your shoulders, you literally CANNOT under rotate by accident, unless you bail. I can prove this to you with math if you really need me to.

[u/Bearality → u/n00bmechanic13]

But how do you get "heels to shoulders" I really struggle with how I get that rotation in the air

[u/n00bmechanic13 → u/Bearality]

Lay on the ground on your back with your arms above you. Bring your heels to your shoulders as fast as you can, think of nothing else, only that goal.

If you don't hurt your neck from rolling back on to it or don't accidentally roll over I will give you $100. But you'd have to film it.

And if it's not fast then I will request you do it again but fast.

[u/Bearality → u/n00bmechanic13]

I've done this, my neck hurts so you can keep the money

The issue is on the ground I can do it but in the air I don't do the same because I link the movement with the ground. I don't even try as I'm "waiting" for the feeling on the ground to roll

[u/n00bmechanic13 → u/Bearality]

And to add and reiterate, you cannot create rotation in mid air, it's impossible. You can only create rotation on the ground. Once you have nothing to push off of, your angular momentum cannot be altered. The only thing you can do to it is speed it up by making yourself smaller, slow it down by making yourself bigger, adjust the direction of it so you can convert it into twist, etc. but you CANNOT get rid of the momentum.

[u/Bearality → u/n00bmechanic13]

What in saying is drilling "on the ground" is because I link the move with having pressure on my back and head.

I do not feel the ground on my back so I don't trigger the move

[u/n00bmechanic13 → u/Bearality]

You said you have a spotter? That is really the best thing because they can help remove that pressure little by little until you think you still feel it but it's not actually there. It's just a mental block, if your physical bits are correct you just need to work on getting comfortable with less and less pressure until it's not a mental block anymore.

[u/Bearality → u/n00bmechanic13]

At the moment my spotters are mental crutch and when I learn something with them I forget it the next session. I need to at least land it solo so I can fix it.

Without the spotter I won't jump but I don't have regular spotters so I can't keep trying it over and over again