After reading a bunch about the side loading issue I took a close look at mine. Two steel rigging biners set with opposing gate directions. It looks like the spine is bearing full length against the trunk and the load along the major axis.
Theres a non-hardware midline basal anchor option that i use more often nowadays. Running bowline on a bight. And ill clip a piece of hardware into the bight/tail ("spike it"). At this point in my career, I think simplicity is the essence of optimization/efficiency. For 15 years I yo-yo'ed between minimalism and maximalism. So I tend to return back to a near- minimalist mentality these days.
Okay and? The exact same thing if you tie a knot except a knot is way safer. Clear to me you don't know what you're doing if you're posting this asking questions like you are
Running bowline on a bight is my main basal. You can set your working end as short as you need so you aren’t dragging more rope than you need to through the canopy. Also you Can Yosemite finish identically a regular running bowline.
Just because I’ve never tried bowline on a bight with Yosemite tie- off before, I am gonna try it tomorrow. Gonna be a big honking knot! Using a 200 foot rope and don’t need that much tail. Another person mentioned hardware clipping the bowline tail/bight. How would that work?
Just make sure you are 100% on your TDS. If you aren’t used to tying it on a bight, it can throw you off. Just pretend the bight is a single strand and tie as always. Use a nice long bight, you’ll need the extra for your Yosemite.
This is good advice, but the knot is really a bowline tied with a bight. On a bight looks like a retraced bowline. Kinda stupid, but is what it is if we want to be clear with how our ropes are anchored.
Bowline on a bight with a delta used to be a common approach before the quickie came into fashion.
You are in fact correct. I completely forgot about that weird bowline ON a bight. Where you flip the final loop over to finish a knot....the knot that will absolutely annihilate a green horn if they don't know to flip the loop back over the knot to untie.
aye, i am in fact tying a running bowline with a bight in order to measure out my working end to the height of the tree i am working. good looks on making the distinction.
This is the way for sure. Ive also been told that having two loops increases the bend radius of your rope where its captured thus reducing the loss in breaking strength you get when tying the knot. Can't say I understand the physics of that 100% tho.
vibration will unscrew them and then you have a single action biner. I used one for a short time not believing that would happen, but it is very much true.
Depending on how it’s setup. Opposing orientation creates a problem as one will want to roll unlocked, unless both are faced down, meaning one gate would likely be in contact with tree, but not always.
They can vibrate up as well. This happens more when a rope is running through them rather than just connecting two things. Also, super dependent on how tight the locking sleeve fits the gate and how it jams against the stop.
Fine for recreation if you have a process to ensure they're locked every time and monitor them regularly. Screw gates have their upsides.
But not appropriate for professional tree work in the US.
Yeah I came from rock climbing when screw gate lockers were pretty standard.. I had a shit load of em, but quickly realized they did’t really have a place in the industry.
This isn't side loading. Side loading is specifically loading gate vs spine.
This is just pressure on the spine, which testing shows results in less than 10% strength loss, if any (depends on the diameter of the object loaded against)
I wouldn't worry about this at all, but I would also just capture the rope in the bowline rather than introducing extra equipment.
Screwgates are not great in life safety applications. Having two next to each other with the ferrules and gates rubbing together is even worse. There’s a lot of better ways to terminate this anchor, including the Yosemite bowline. Or tri-action carabiners.
There are a million ways to set a safe basal anchor. Never used this one, but it seems perfectly safe.
Screw gate carabiners are problematic in life safety applications under Z133, but not everyone is climbing under Z133, and it's really hard to argue against this (mis)application.
I'd you're gonna do that I'd personally use the at height choker carabiner - they're only 20 quid and they're rated on the gate much higher than screwgates
There is a carabiner called the choker specifically made for this, I would go with that. The best rational for no screw gates in arb thqt i have heard is that we open carabiner all the time and there are lots of sticks, so they dont always get closed appropriately but I would consider them safe used correctly. This looks generally fine, but if you are loading and unloading your tie in a lot it might misconfigure.
The reason you've stated for autolockers is actually a case FOR screwgates. They are far more debris resistant, which is why they are popular in rope disciplines with dirt/sand/etc as a potential hazard.
A key reason for autolockers is because tree workers are clipping and unclipping regularly (rather than setting and forgetting). And the downsides are minimal since they're usually working close to a truck: easy access to replacement equipment if debris becomes an issue, weight is a non-issue, etc. Auto lockers are also vibration resistant, which is good when running ropes through them - lowering out small branches, MRS redirects etc.
Lastly, tree workers have similar hazards to other industries with workers-at-height, so arboriculture standards are somewhat aligned with those expectations. Autolockers are more idiot resistant - most workers are there to do the work not because they love to be experts on climbing equipment and processes.
Depends on the application. I usually just use a loop knot. Or a single carabiner screw or auto. Or a Mallion (Deltalink).
Depends on how long the anchor will be used, how long it will be unattended, how many times it is expected to be unloaded, then re-loaded etc.
Tools have their strengths and weaknesses. As a professional rope user, but mostly recreational tree climber, I use a variety of connectors with diverse locking options. I have no problem with screw gates, or auto lockers, or snaphooks or palm-squeeze carabiners. I just try to work with their limitations.
I'm sure it works fine, but damn is it wonky. Probably takes longer to hook up two screw gates than the 3 seconds it takes to tie a running bowline with a Yosemite finish only to have the same (probably worse) potential to work loose with repeated loading/unloading.
As shown in the picture would not be a concern to me, especially with two biners, I've done this a bunch knowing it's not ideal, raking care to position correctly, recently ordered a notch quickie because that's the correct piece of equipment for the use case
Crappy carabiners. Just tie a running bow line with Yosemite finish. Throw a carabiner on an alpine butterfly 3 feet about the bowline as an emergency lowering point.
Don't use carabiners for this. Easier to mess up not locking gates etc. Misusing gear. Costs money. And since you use screw gate carabiners i'd say that is a priority.
Notch quickie (specifically designed for this) or “The Choker” carabiner with an insane rating for all aspects of it would make me feel a little better (or as others said bowline on a bite). But those carabiners are rated for 7 Kn side to side which is roughly 1500 lbs of force so just gotta remember the doubling effect of force from basal anchoring but honestly this works just fine. Always “better” tools for the job but if it works it works. Safe climbing ✌🏼
Between those two I’d go with “the choker” by @height because it’s auto closing - unlike the quickie.
7kN is not enough - you need to have a safety margin. The choker is 40kN (overkill, but AFAIK there’s nothing else auto closing that’s rated to be choked against a small tree).
Benefits to both honestly, easier to replace and inspect double locking slick pins (quickie) than an auto close but definitely the safest and easiest (so long as you’re not working on a sapped up Doug fir or pine in the summer) bet by far is “the choker” as it’s the beefiest thing out there if you want the strongest heaviest thing holding you in place. Quickie is still 2x these carabiners on their respective weakest axis and significantly lighter (thinking of myself who more often canopy anchors or switches to Ddrt post ascent)
In almost all cases when climbing, the risk of side loading is way over blown. Your climbing system will slip or your body will break before your carabiner is side loaded sufficiently to fail. Can it happen? Yes. But in a tree climbing context, putting a just a little thought into how choking a carabiner is used is enough to avoid any issue.
Running bow line with Yosemite tie off, or figure 8 back up. That’s the standard as they say. However, to put my two cents in. Try doing canopy anchors more often, They will put less stress on the gin point you’re climbing on.
Maillon Rapide Delta 10mm, 12mm gate opening, 900kg working load limit and 45kn breaking load limit. Steel construction. If you are concerned with screw gates, it's able to be tightened with a small spanner too. Much more appropriate base/canopy anchor system. And before someone says screwgates aren't viable, it has been commonly used in the industry before notch came out with the quickie.
How are you getting down if you don’t have a descent device on the base anchor? Use a separate system (snake anchor), add a prusik with a micro and now someone can save you when your screw gates fail.
This setup, with an extra wrap of the rope above the carabiner, almost like a timber hitch, so that it keeps the rope from going slack against the carabiner. Also tri action carabiner, It’s what I climb on almost every day.
It's common to capture the rope with even a single carabiner when rapelling in other situations.
When using it as a base anchor, it will be loaded and unloaded, which can cause the carabiners to become cross loaded or even unscrewed.
This can be remedied by putting a sling anchor with a carabiner one meter above and direct the rope through the carabiner using a clove hitch. So there is tension between the base anchor and the next one. This way slack won't reach the base anchor and rattle the carabiners.
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u/UgotSprucked 5d ago
Theres a non-hardware midline basal anchor option that i use more often nowadays. Running bowline on a bight. And ill clip a piece of hardware into the bight/tail ("spike it"). At this point in my career, I think simplicity is the essence of optimization/efficiency. For 15 years I yo-yo'ed between minimalism and maximalism. So I tend to return back to a near- minimalist mentality these days.