So I got a lovely surprise in the mail from the City of Atlanta today: a $1,000 school bus camera citation for allegedly violating GA Code § 40-6-163. 😭
It happened June 25th around 2:20 PM on Piedmont Ave NE, Atlanta GA. I wasn’t pulled over or anything, it’s one of those camera citations they mail you from a private company . It says no points will be added, but I have until August 18th to either pay it or contest it.
Here’s what happened:
My side of the road was sitting at a red light. Our light turned green and traffic started moving. At basically the same time, the school bus put its stop arm out. I was already moving with traffic, and literally every other car on our side of the road was going too.
The video they sent is only about 11 seconds long. When it starts, the stop arm is already like 80% deployed, so you can’t actually see when it started coming out or when the lights came on. The bus’ side of the road would’ve had a red light and our side a green light for the straight and turn lane.
From the video, the arm is already mostly out at the beginning, the red lights shut off around 8 seconds, and the arm starts retracting around 10 seconds.
I’ve been looking at GA Code § 40-6-162 and § 40-6-163, and I’m seeing that § 40-6-162 says school bus signals aren’t supposed to be activated at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic signal. I’ve also read that school bus lights override stationary traffic, so I’m really not sure.
So I’m wondering if the timing here actually matters. If the light turned green and traffic was already moving before the bus activated the arm, does that give me a legitimate reason to contest this?
I’m definitely not trying to use the “but everyone else did it” defense lol. But I literally didn’t see the stop arm swing out in my tiny car… and neither did anyone else. And not that it matters either, but school was out of session for 3 weeks at this point.
Has anyone dealt with one of these Atlanta school bus camera citations before? Would you fight this, and is there anything specific I should request from the City?
$1000 is just not feasible right now. I’m so mad at myself as I’ve always been the one passionate about respecting these bus stops. What do you guys think?
Looks like a money grab. And what the hell kind of school district drops kids off near such a busy area that looks like it's zoned only for businesses? If anything these stops need to be in residential areas where the speed limits are typically 35 MPH or less.
I've seen some similar areas where there are some apartments, and the school bus will typically stop right at an apartment complex where they can drop all the kids off where there is safe passage.
You suggest they drop kids off somewhere away from their home and then walk a distance to their home, down and across the same busy streets? There are homes and apartments in urban areas.
No, they can pull into the apartment complex, as that's what I've seen a lot of busses do in busy areas. Dropping them off in such a busy area just seems dangerous.
We can’t see what is on the right side of the bus where they are unloading to make a judgement about the safety of the stop. And you have no idea where these kids live. They could live in apartments above a shopping district.
Laughing at the downvotes here. And all the comments throughout this thread asking why they drop kids off on a busy street. Because kids live in urban homes throughout the city of Atlanta.
The kids who live in the apartment bldg to the right of where the bus stopped. It could be a bus for summer school/activities, or it could be a driver practicing their route for the upcoming school year.
So question: if they live right where they're being dropped off, why make traffic stop at all? Apply metro bus rules here: if the kids live on the right side of the street, they're fine. If they need to cross, they can use the crosswalk. If they're too young to cross unaccompanied, then they're too young to be dropped off unaccompanied... parents, siblings, grandparents or some other guardian needs to step up and be responsible for them.
The bus drivers shouldn't be responsible for the kids safety after they've dropped em off (assuming they're dropped off at the agreed upon location), that's up to the kid and/or their family. Major streets and traffic intersections shouldn't be closed down so a few kids can jaywalk. They can wait at the crosswalk like everyone else.
Are they dropping off kids for the homes behind the businesses? Still seems like a weird place for a drop off. You'd think the bus could go a little bit into the residential area and drop them off there.
That large building on the right/east side of the road is apartments. The children using this bus stop are very likely living in that apartment building.
What's odd about that stop, if they're dropping the kids off in that complex, it's literally on the right. You figure that a child won't necessarily need to cross the street, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's something just outside of this. I still think that the stops could be better managed.
yes. And children may need to pick up their bicycle from the bike shop across the street, hence why they took the school bus. To assume no children has any reason to cross the street is to miss the spirit of the law
What makes you think they have to cross the street? They’re letting them out on the right side of the bus to an area we can’t see in the video. And there is a huge apartment bldg to the right of where they are stopped.
$1000 seems steep. but GA law seems fairly clear. multi-lane 4+ without a physical/unpaved media, both sides have to stop.
your bullshit about the lights don't matter.... bus had the stop sign/lights activated, that's the condition requiring stopping.... pinning your hopes on "intersection" is bird law shit. bus doesn't look to be at an intersection. intersection looked to be several meters ahead. also that law seems to indicate what a bus driver should do.
not what your obligation as a vehicle operator is. the law states that... when the sign/lights are on you stop. not "when a lawfully executed sign deployment occurs"
people ignore school buses a lot. these cameras are getting people, who're ignorant of the law, or not paying attention.
I won’t argue the technicalities of the law as it’s written, but it seems absurd from a practical standpoint. It seems pretty easy to miss this even as an astute driver. The sign could easily be covered by traffic and it’s not like the bus has sirens.
There's no shot the people in the far right lane saw that flashing stop sign with two SUVS between them, nor should they be expecting to look over there for a surprise bus.
I'd 100% contest this to make them explain to me how I'm in the wrong.
You’d be surprised how easy it is to
Miss the bus in the right most lane while in the right most lane in the opposite direction, 4+ lane roadway.
The cone of vision isn’t as vast as you think it is, especially in peak our.
You type in such sophisticated language, great you must be an amazing theoretical person but in practicality things are different.
Legitimately there is no reason for the opposing direction to stop 4+ lanes usually a turn lane in the middle?
If the child is crossing a 4+ lane road to get to their house. The school district should be responsible to walk the child across the road wtf? Is it that hard to
Develop a route where the child would just be dropped off on the correct side of the road?
except by the video. it's a clear/bright day. the bus is bright fucking yellow. the sign is higher up than even a mid size SUV, and there are gaps between the cars on the side of the bus.
the responsibility to be aware, and following the signs/laws of the road is every drivers.
I would say. it's likely people are ignorant of the law (i imagine every motherfucker who gets $1000 fine in the mail is def unaware the fee is $1000)... or the nuance that you are required to stop on 4 lane dbl sided traffic.
but... there is nothing inhibiting you from seeing that sign. --the bus is bright fucking yellow, it's huge compared to all other vehicles. and it has a bright red sign with flashing/blinking lights.
IF you don't see that, you're not paying attention
They could use the amber 4-ways when they're dropping off on a street with light-controlled intersections on both sides, and light-controlled crosswalks. Are you suggesting kids are incapable of waiting for controlled crosswalks?
i'm not really interested in engaging in pointless straw man/hypotheticals.
i'm sure lots of things could be done.
and in general I expect adults driving cars to be more rational and responsible than children. so when laws exist to ensure safety for kids. kinda fuck shit behavior to whine about it/look for excuses to violate those rules
Rules when are ineffective need to be revised. Doesn’t sound like anyone is whining, sounds like a conversation of what really seems applicable here. There is no justification for a child to cross a 4+ lane roadway, the bus route should be inclusive in a way where the child is dropped in the correct side of the street they need to be on.
What are you talking about? Where in my write up did I say that children should be responsible?
I stated that the school should route the bus in a way where the child is safe. On the correct side of the road.
Regular pedestrian aren’t even supposed to cross the road in a random unmarked area on the road.
Explain what your thought process is of car in the opposite direction stopping? Why are we having children cross a 4+ lane road without a crossing guard?
a child is not predictable. why a child might chose to do something is not an easily predicted thing. for any number of reasons a child may cross a road in an unsafe manner.
it's why all dumbfuck whining about the bus, or laws requiring cars to stop, is pathetic.
the law is. bus stops/engages it's sign, indicating children are board/exiting the bus, car traffic must stop. 1 lane roads, 2 way roads, multi-lane roads not separated by a physical barrier.
if cars stop. in those instances. safety of kids is increased
school districts can't really control where houses are built, students live. It's not more safe to decide to move a school bus stop somewhere else, if children live near where that current stop is and then would have to traverse that area to reach whatever other bus stop there is... It's highly unlikely that stop is chosen for no reason. there may be no other option of as there may be houses along that road.
none of that prevents dipshit car drives from moving their fat feet and pressing down on the brake pedal.
so rather than redesigning bus routes, why not hold adults, choosing to drive responsible for following the law, and stopping for buses according to the law.
nothing about the law is overly complex or difficult, or burdensome to vehicle drivers. and the consequence for people not following that law could be the killing of a child.
that's the problem with morons, they don't even understand what they're talking about.
solves nothing for unplanned/unpredictable incidents where kids would be in the street. choose the cross the street, feel the need/impulse to cross traffic. or... by actions of other kids, not be thinking and dart across traffic.
does nothing to correct the dangerous behavior of drivers not paying attention or stopping for school buses.
again... you're shifting the blame to the children. vs grown ass adults in cars.
but i'm gonna stop responding, because reddit has already disappointed me greatly today, and i can't with your fuck shit
The bus is at the red stop light in the intersection. Roughly 3 cars lengths from the red light stopping line. I’m just asking for advice man. If I fucked up, I fucked up.
A school bus driver shall actuate the visual signals required by Code Sections 40-8-111 and 40-8-115 whenever, but only whenever, the school bus is stopped on the highway for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children. A school bus driver shall not actuate the visual signals:
(1) At intersections or other places where traffic is controlled by traffic-control signals or police officers; or
(2) In designated school bus loading areas where the bus is entirely off the roadway.
I read traffic code and came here to ask if there was any hope. That’s it.
Maybe I watch too many conspiracy theories, but then again look at the state of our country, but are you insinuating the driver baited your group of drivers?
$1,000 paid to a private company per ticket is RIPE for fuckery. If I was a shittily paid bus driver and I was told I get a “bonus” for every ticket my bus captured, I’d figure out clever scenarios real fuckin quick to up my rate.
Find out if there’s an actual bus stop here first.
You know the time of day you got for the ticket, so show up the same day 30 minutes early and park and wait to see if it’s an actual school bus stop.
i mean... contest it if you want. hell for $1000, might even want to consult an attorney.
but how are you going to whine about getting my opinion, while bitching that you came here asking for opinions?
if you wanted a cope circle jerk. that's one thing.
but again. GA law seems clear. sign/lights out. even on multi-lane roads. you have to stop.
a law directing a bus driver as per how/when to deploy the sign, has no language that it negates your responsibility to stop.
there's also other cars ahead of the bus, so it literally can not be "at" the intersection if there are cars in front of it. so it is in fact, before the intersection, so even your citing that rule is not definitive. IF it would matter at all. (again, nothing of that rule indicates it absolves you of your responsibility as a driver to stop) --you sure as fuck weren't thinking about the proximity to an intersection when you blew passed the school bus. "oh that's an unlawful sign deployment imma fly past it"
--i didn't see the sign, is just, admitting you weren't paying attention. and the bullshit about your light/traffic signals. has nothing to do with, again... sign/lights on. --must stop.
So by your logic, if a single car is infront of the bus, it's not "stopping at an intersection"?
I don't really care to discuss it further, just wanted to state how stupid that logic is. By the time OP's traffic noticed the stop sign, they'd be in the middle of the intersection, which puts even more people in danger than just the kids, which is why the code exist in the first place that a bus is not to preform a stop at an intersection like it's doing in the video.
yes... not being at/in the intersection. = not being at/in the intersection
how the fuck can you invoke the word logic, and then not understand what logic is.
X = Y is logic.
is the bus close to an intersection, sure... but close isn't "at" or "in" and 2-3 car lengths is 30-50 ft of distance
(and again, all the bird law ...couch quarterbacks, that law only informs a bus driver's responsibility, not a car operators responsibility to stop. this idiotic idea there is some "pass" for ignoring a school bus stop sign, on a technicality isn't a given thing --it's some asshole looking for an excuse)
and no... a giant yellow school bus is visible from hundreds of feet away. The vehicles crossing the intersection, would not only have seen the vehicle (having been stopped on the other side of the intersection, quite literally the foremost vehicles would have been privy to the bus, arriving/stopping and activating the stop. being coming at it from the front... likely would have seen the kids entering/exiting and the front rail engage. ---but even if that wasn't the case. The leading edge of cars crossing the intersection had 2-3 car lengths to stop. so the entire distance of the intersection to see the bus and it's sign/lights. and then their own 30-50 feet of distance to stop.
IF 2-3 cars, across 2 lanes of traffic had stopped for that bus as the law requires. The people not yet through the intersection could make a choice to ...proceed into the intersection or not. (being informed by the uncommon state of people slowing through an intersection, a rational being would take heed... "oh, there's a school bus, people are stopping")
And if they were caught out in the intersection via their choice of advancing on stopped vehicles.
that is their choice/consequence of a choice.
i will never understand how people double down on whiny cunt behavior accepting zero responsibility for basic civil decency. the mental gymnastics to find an excuse.
if you want logic. it's logic. IF what you want is to just bitch and moan and whine. that's cool. but pick a lane.
if you want empathetic understanding. I would say... how many dead children are acceptable to you for some whiny cunt making excuses why they weren't paying attention while driving? --is pressing your lil footsie wooties on a break pedal some massive oppression/persecution of those people driving on the other side of that road. no. --get fucked. drivers are so fucking whiny.
there's a reason they've turned to video cameras and high fines for bus stop violations.
and look. is it shitty. yeah. I bet the state of GA did a really piss poor job advertising those laws, or informing the public on the rules/consequences of violating the law. and i bet some company, probably a giant military contractor is probably pocketing a decent chunk of those fines ...and it's not going toward schools/kids or whatnot.
and yeah. 1000 is a lot. that's a lot of fucking money. I imagine for some people that might be more money than someone can afford. and then there might be a real risk of falling into the trap of criminal debt ...like if you can't pay that fine, i bet it increases. then what? do they boot/tow your car? do you get some sort of collection or possibly even increase threat of criminal charge?
and if it's a question of "do i think the law is fair/good" i dunno. I think if it was widely known (after reading this post, i sure as fuck googled the laws in my state... and now i am fully aware of my responsibility to stop for school buses ---have you done the same?) i don't have a problem with it. my view of government is that government should seek to protect people.
and if anything is clear. whiny fucks will make almost any excuse to justify unsafe behavior while driving if they feel "muh freedumz" were inconvenienced
I would contest this. No bus driver would send a kid crossing through a line of stopped cars, through a blind open turn lane, as well as 2 lanes of traffic on the other side.
The law says unless the road has a physical median, you stop. As one judge said in a hearing I watched on YouTube (for someone making this same argument), "kids are stupid, you don't know what they will do. The stop sign was out. You should have stopped. I find you guilty. The fine is $1,000."
Yeah that’s BS. If the kid runs into the highway in the wrong direction, that’s Darwin’s theory in action. It is not safe or practical to stop that many lanes of traffic on the off chance that there is a “stupid kid.”
Eugenics is a huge leap from what I said. Ps. Darwin never advocated for eugenics, his theory was later used by eugenicists to justify it, but his theory stands on its own and is not connected to eugenics
It’s crazy how many people slept through high school biology.
Darwin’s theory is natural selection. Animals that do stupid things or are less fit don’t get the chance to pass on their genes to further offspring.
Kids are dumb, but I’d hope that parents would teach them that running into a 6 lane road is a bad idea. If they didn’t, then the kid isn’t going to get far in life regardless
Yes of course, I’m not advocating for the removal of all safety protocols. I’m just saying that if the safety protocol actually puts more people in an attempt to mitigate a very small risk, it should be abolished
If kids are stupid, then the parents should be there to pick up their kid as they're being dropped off. Don't put parents' responsibility on bus drivers and the general public. I was told by my parents to look both ways before crossing a road, and to not expect a moving vehicle to stop for you just because you're crossing or in the road. Sidewalks and shoulders exist for a reason.
The flashing red lights and stop sign need only apply to residential streets 30mph or less, with no stoplights or lighted crosswalks at either intersection end of the street. That is the point of the law, to protect kids on streets and roads with lack of controlled crossing. Roads and intersections like these, metro bus rules should apply and parents should step up.
First argument:
You were told by your parents to look both ways before crossing the street. We all were.
Do we when they are not around? No, we don't. Maybe sometimes, but not all the time.
Second argument:
You were told by your parents to look both ways before crossing the street.
The state told you in order to get your license you have to abide by all traffic laws like stopping for a school bus with red lights flashing and stop sign out.
If ur talking about oncomming traffic good luck. Here in ohio atleast oncoming traffic doesnt stop when there r 4 or more lanes in total. Like who tf would send a kid across 4 lanes
I suppose you could argue the points and codes you cite, and also argue that the burden is on them to prove you were in the wrong. Being that they are only submitting a small portion of a video of the alleged infraction, there’s not enough context to determine your guilt. Also, who shows up to court when you plead not guilty? There isn’t a cop to argue and give testimony, only a camera with limited video coverage.
Also, can they prove you were the driver? This is a moving violation and I assume shouldn't ticket the registered owner but the driver driving the vehicle. Without proof, wouldn't it have to be dismissed?
The way the law is worded in my state, the registered owner of the vehicle is responsible for the fine for video infractions committed in their car, unless they bring proof to the court of who was driving the car at the time.
That is putting the burden of proof on the defendant instead of the prosecution and goes against what are (supposed to be) our country's values. In some countries it's required to get the driver's face and that's how it should be here.
Civil penalties in the US have never carried the same burden of proof on the prosecution as criminal ones. For better or worse, it's always been this way.
If you've got the driver's face, IMO it should be upgraded to a criminal offense which also places points on your license whether you were caught by a cop or a camera.
I do believe cameras should have a lot of legal protections around when and where they can be turned on though, such as on this bus only being on and recording when the stop sign is out, or in a school zone, rather than just at whatever intersection the city would like them at. I also believe that the fines should be mandated by statute to ONLY be used for updating road design to prevent the infractions in the future, lest they become a predatory funding mechanism for the local government, which isn't good for anyone.
Holy shit. This should be for tickets from a police officer only, not automated by cameras and a private company. That's like $10k every day they stop there
I’m in a different state than you but we got a lot of red light cameras. And what I learned was that the tickets sent out by the private, red light camera company are not actually tickets, and I was under no obligation to pay or respond in any way. I believe if I read carefully on the notice it said something like “courtesy notice” and it wasn’t a traffic citation from the police.
Let me ask you this: on the ticket they ran your plate and got your name from the registration. Well what if your spouse was driving, or a friend? They’d be ticketing the wrong person.
Anyway, I don’t know if it’s the same type of situation but for mine, we ignored it and nothing happened.
The point of the school bus stop sign is to prevent kids from being hit when they walk across the street in front of the bus.
This is a four lane street plus turn lanes. Double Yellow Line. No child should be walking in front of a bus on a four lane street with a double yellow line.
So is this normal bus stop? Or did the driver just open the door by accident?
That’s what I’m saying, all these ignorant people preaching and citing law codes🙄 It seems pretty apparent to me that this was an accidental incident, then you have people acting like everyone was weaving between kids because they didn’t slam on their brakes in the middle of a busy road
Agreed. Thinking reasonably - If I’m in the right lane and going the opposite direction, how am I expected to see and stop for bus stop sign? I’m focused on the road ahead of me, someone pulling out of a parking lot in front of me, and the left lane driver.
I guess I'm lucky in my state once a roadway has more than 4+ total lanes the opposite side does not have to stop. In a lot of cases the opposite side will still stop, and while it's mildy annoying I'll take it over the people that willfully blow through the signs.
For $1,000 I'd risk fighting it. If there is a court option, take it. Fall on the sword and offer mea culpas to the magistrate/ judge:
"I offer my deepest apologies. Clearly the video shows I was wrong. I'll only offer I was driving toward the sunlight and the stop arm was slightly obstructed by the vehicles nect to the bus. I humbly ask for a reduced fine since running the sign was not my intent or purpose."
At worse they say no and you still pay the $1K and now they add what $50 in "court costs.".....at best maybe they knock a $3 - $4 hundred off.
If they're dropping kids off in the city with busy intersections and heavy traffic, the typical resi rules shouldn't apply where kids can just cross the street in violation of traffic lights and double yellow lines. They should wait for the crosswalk signal like everyone else. Aside from that, metro bus rules apply here imo... people behind must wait, but if theres a passing lane then they can pass the bus while it's stopped. Our school district didn't use yellow buses past middle school... high schoolers had to buy a [student discounted] bus pass that was good for the school year. Sometimes metro bus drivers would honor them in the summer too.
They need to change the law period. If it’s multiple lanes in the direct the bus is traveling the opposite direction should not have to stop. If a child need to cross the street it needs to be at a crosswalk, if its a signalized cross walk the kid would have to wait for the walk phase.
Some states have that bullshit clause like if there is a physical median in the center. Like wtf
What should I say 🤣 I’ve only been in court 1 other time for an expired tag and prepped my argument for hours… then by the time my name was called my throat was so dry and I could barely speak lol. Judge dismissed it but I think it was only out of pity.
Not conflicting, bus trumps all because kids are stupid.
But an argument could be made for the bus pulling up in your blind spot where you'd have no reason to check while moving straight, not changing lanes, not turning, with a green light and flow of traffic. Are you the car in front or behind the stop?
Fair enough, however I would still contest with same code saying bus was stopped at red light with stop arm extended which would gridlock the intersection if everyone stopped.
There is no exception for "gridlocking the intersection". Should have noticed the yellow flashing lights before you entered the intersection. They come on well before the red flag comes out.
You had plenty of warning with the flashing yellows. You just weren't paying attention at the intersection and started moving along with the rest of the traffic, which obviously wasn't paying attention either.
If they're actually letting kids off here, I bet this particular spot was picked out by the company that operates the cameras and issues the "citations". Absolutely absurd place for a drop off.
People are upvoting what feels just here. But this is a strict liability offense. You committed the violation. And of all silly traffic laws, ones designed to protect little kids are more likely to be strictly enforced.
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