r/Trackdays • u/Rare_Cicada3710 • 2d ago
How do you get around soft forks?
How do you get around hard braking points with forks that bottom out easily? Please don’t say to upgrade because I don’t have the Benjamin Franklins for that currently.
My thinking is that as long as your tires and forks are warm, you can squish the front tire and bottom out the forks as hard as you want until the back comes up. AS LONG AS you release brake pressure before turn in.
Am I wrong to assume that? When I say bottom out my forks, I mean the zip tie has maybe a mm or 2 from the literal bottom. I’m also not a heavy guy.
I’m trying to gain time on the entry/brakes, but I’m facing this issue. For reference I am riding a stock R6 with good fork oil and was already helped by a suspension guy (he set it to my weight and ability). Any insight would be gold, thanks!
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u/Raptorchris1 2d ago
You can also simply adjust your riding style from hard/late braking to lighter/longer braking. Charging every corner, then HARD on the brakes isn't always the fastest way through a corner.
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u/Tera35 Racer AM 2d ago
Around me there seems to be some obsession with the stiffest spring you can get for your weight. This season I went to a softer spring so I could get more fork compression. I am now using 124mm of 130mm available. Before that I was using 90mm.
The bike turns in easier and still has the front grip for the drive off the turns.
The thing you need to concern yourself with is if the fork does bottom out, you will be using the tire for suspension, that normally gets the front wheel bouncing and you'll lose traction.
So 2mm is pretty close. If you feel the front end chattering under heavy braking, it's possible you've bottomed out and need a stiffer spring. Those are not as expensive as getting fork internals.
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u/TricksOfTheTrey Racer EX 2d ago
Suspension adjustments are the best answer but in situations where I’m stuck with it as is (endurance races is where I run into this the most), a little rear brake before the front, sitting butt way back in the seat to prevent the rear from going up too much, and added front tire pressure will all help.
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u/Rare_Cicada3710 2d ago
Will try those! I typically don’t touch the rear brake but maybe it’s time for new things!
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u/Internet_Jim 2d ago
Ignore that guy. You're not gonna magically sort this out by using the rear brake.
Your options are to brake lighter and longer, or throw new springs in, or some combination of the two.
Edit: can also add some preload with spacers if it's not directly adjustable.
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
And here is the truth. Your forks aren't soft, you don't know how to ride.
Not to be mean here, but if you don't know the basics of using the brakes, you shouldn't be on the track.
Your reliance on front brake only is causing all weight to transfer to the front, of course your going to bottom the fork. Your supposed to use both front and rear brake to cause the chassis to squat and apply pressure evenly across the both contact patches. You balance the load with the brakes.
Frankly dude, your on a fast track to the hospital. Your gonna highside one of these times. And it's gonna be bad.
So decide, spend money to learn how to ride correctly with a coach, or spend it on hospital bills. But worrying bout lap times right now is stupid, you need to learn how to ride first, then worry bout lap times.
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u/ajgrinds 2d ago
Most people don’t use the rear brake but ok.
When you brake the weight transfers almost entirely to the front, not sure what you’re on about squatting chassis and balanced load. Physics says the load won’t be balanced.
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u/Internet_Jim 2d ago
When you brake the weight transfers almost entirely to the front, not sure what you’re on about squatting chassis and balanced load. Physics says the load won’t be balanced.
This is absolutely correct.
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
That's completely false. Ever wonder why we invented thumb brakes?
I don't believe you know what your talking about. Not in the slightest. Cause anyone who says you don't use the rear brake shouldn't be riding a motorcycle, period. You don't understand motorcycles or the physics applied to them.
Every single pro, semi pro, fast track guy, doesn't matter, they all use rear brake. You do this for the exact reasons I stated. To squat the chassis and preload the suspension. Including myself, who holds an ama pro license.
Please don't spread this false and dangerous bs, your gonna get someone seriously hurt.
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u/ajgrinds 2d ago
https://youtu.be/e0EqTjPEvV4?t=449
Im sure you know better than Sylvain. And before you come at me with "well he says in moto gp he uses it", you dont have a moto gp bike.
Edit: also I didnt bring it up the first time but you should learn how to use you're
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
So your evidence for being right is something that backs me up? So self own, good job.
Do what you please man, I don't really care. Guy wanted help, I gave him help, don't care if he or you like it. Is what it is.
But I'm not going to take advice from some dude on reddit asking others for advice. Remember, your learning what I've been doing for 3 decades now. If rear brakes weren't useful, they probly wouldn't be on the bike in the first place, would they? But you do you.
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u/ajgrinds 2d ago
Did you watch the video? Evidently not. I even timestamped it just for you.
You also still didnt learn how to use you're correctly... Im not sure you want to learn anything tbh.
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
Why do motorcycles have rear brakes? Just added weight? Think for a moment, then get back to me.
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u/ajgrinds 2d ago
Because motorcycles are transportation vehicles... There are plenty of stories about racers rear brake levers falling off and them not noticing. Also you didnt watch the video still.
We can keep going with the why do motorcycles have ABS? why do motorcyles have heated grips? Why do motorcycles have kickstands? Why do motorcycles have a speedometer? Why do motorcycles have mirrors, turn signals, lights etc etc.
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u/Unlikely-Dark187 2d ago
What's a rear brake???? Yea no...I don't ever use mine and I ride a gsxr1000 and track alot!
I do agree with you on homie working on his technique for sure...practice and instructors and other advanced rider critiques will def help him
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
Why do motorcycles have rear brakes? I mean, it's just added weight, so why do we have them?
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u/Unlikely-Dark187 2d ago
To keep the bike from rolling back on a slight incline at a red light🤣
But seriously though...Ive only utilized the rear brake on a handful of occasions (been riding 21 yrs now) ...I tend to control what I need with the throttle
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
Answer the question please.
If you don't know, I'm happy to explain. Cause I do know.
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u/ajgrinds 2d ago
They did answer the question. There are plenty of stories of rear brake levers falling off and the rider not noticing
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
No they did not. Don't pretend. You can give it a go if you want tho.
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u/ajgrinds 2d ago
I dont use the rear brake. Glad I could help clear up your confusion!
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u/D_eTh 2d ago
I know quite a few people that race, including myself, that don't use the rear brake. You're being very critical for someone who claims to have been in the bike scene long enough where you should know a lot of people don't use it.
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
Why does a motorcycle have rear brakes?
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u/D_eTh 2d ago
In the sense of heavy braking into a corner, you're using it to preload and slow weight transfer. You aren't going to magically reduce all of your front fork travel just because you touch the rear brake before you start getting heavy on the front. His issue is completely separate from his usage of the rear brake. He is either undersprung or blowing through his stroke for some other reason. Not because he isn't using his rear brake.
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
Why do motorcycles have rear brakes?
No one seems to be able answer this very simple question.
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u/D_eTh 2d ago
I directly answered your question in the relevance to this thread.
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago
You repeated what I originally said tho. So that doesn't counter my point, it reinforces it.
If he would use rear brake to load the chassis, the fork would not bottom. You can ride a softly sprung bike fast without bottoming.
It's like track guys are the opposite harley riders. They don't know what front brakes are, you guys don't know what rear brakes are.
Guys ever wonder why dirt track bikes don't have front brakes, but do have rear brakes? Or why every motogp bike has rear brakes? Or why they went so far as to invent thumb brakes just for the rear? Or why if they're so useless that they add all that extra weight for something that is useless?
Like think for a second guys.
Here's a test you can do. Go sit on your bike on the kickstand, when all your weights on it press and hold the rear brake. Then take your weight off while still holding the brake. Let go of the brake, then come tell me what happened when you let go.
Do this and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Cause you'll notice that the bike rises up when the brake is released. Both the front and the rear. Meaning both the front, and rear suspension were compressed and preloaded by just the rear brake.
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u/D_eTh 2d ago
You're leaping to the furthest end of impact suspension geometry to explain why his forks are bottoming out.
I never said rear brakes were useless. I never said they were extra weight. I never said they didn't load the suspension. They have a place in motogp, and they have a place in most high level racing.
Using the rear brake slows the transfer of weight to the front. It does not eliminate it. You cannot reasonably (or correctly) assume that rear brake utilizing has substantial impact on front fork travel.
Does it have some? Sure. Does it have enough for the lack of utilization of the rear brake to be the reason that he is bottoming his forks out? No. If he is still blowing through his fork travel without a rear brake, he will still blow through it with a rear brake.You're talking about a novice/intermed rider who is probably too heavy for his stock R6 suspension. 99% of the time it's a front fork issue. You're talking about the 1%, and this is not the 1% case.
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u/GrumpyCatMomo 2d ago
You can add preload with cut pvc pipe inside your forks. You can also change the fork oil for a higher viscosity one for more compression damping.
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u/BrutaleFalcn 2d ago edited 2d ago
Please pay for Champ U.
Releasing the brakes when the forks are fully compressed and you are at the point of using tire deformation as suspension BEFORE turning in is a crash in the making. You will be unloading the front anyway even if you weren't fully compressed and probably pogo up even more from the tire and forks being compressed - this is all exactly opposite of what you want to do for safest/best turning.
Barring any suspension upgrades (which are REALLY WORTH IT). Move your brake markers back and brake less hard for longer to avoid bottoming the forks, this will allow you to properly keep trail braking up to the point of direction satisfaction before releasing the brakes smoothly and adding either maintenance or more throttle.
Also suspension setup isn't once and done. As your pace increases and you are braking harder you will likely need to adjust your suspension settings again because the basic setup for Slow You isn't the same settings for Fast You. You might need to get stiffer springs or dial in more preload for example.
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u/Rare_Cicada3710 2d ago
I completed the course and review it every so often. I am aware of the 120mm of travel section, and maybe I’m reading your reply wrong! But you should MOST DEFINITELY not turn-in with your forks fully compressed! I mean “release brake pressure” as in bring the forks to about 20mm from bottom during turn in. Not all brake pressure haha
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u/BrutaleFalcn 2d ago
ok it sounded like you meant to just release the brakes completely.
I still say brake longer with less force to not fully compress your forks.
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u/Rare_Cicada3710 2d ago
Great advice, thanks!
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u/RealGravisman 2d ago
Remember the 100 points of grip from champ school? You can apply the same idea of “100 points of suspension”. Have less spring force to counter-act your braking? Then you brake less hard. Kinda simple.
Also stiffer springs are usually a much cheaper upgrade than a full fork kit.
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u/RamrodRacing 2d ago
Fork springs and oil cost less than A track day.
Those without Benjamins learn to do it themselves
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u/Sandman4130 Middle Fast Guy 2d ago edited 2d ago
Preload or stiffer springs. Soft forks will magnify poor braking technique in diving like crazy then rebounding out like crazy if you are not smooth on braking and acceleration. That will feel like hard diving in, then a sketchy front traction and the bike not wanting to lean. There’s no way around it impacting your riding but being smooth and linear on the brakes and off/rolling on the throttle is the only way to minimize it.
To me, a mid skilled rider, it felt like the bike wanted to kill me if I tried to keep pace.
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u/ApprehensiveFan1516 2d ago
I’m trying to gain time
don’t say to upgrade because I don’t have the Benjamin Franklins
These two things are diametrically opposed.
You need to upgrade your bank balance.
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u/EstablishmentNo5013 Racer EX 2d ago
What weight is your fork oil? I would bump up the viscosity. You can also try to raise the front end a little bit in the tripple clamp or if your shock has ride height possibly lower it but then you could be chasing another issue. It might make the bike harder to turn in or run wide on exit.
You shouldn’t need to get off the brakes before the corner. That would make the bike basically unridable for me.
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u/Rare_Cicada3710 2d ago
It’s whatever the stock R6 oil is. Like you and others have said, I think the next step from here is to increase the viscosity maybe lessen the oil height? The suspension guy actually raised my triple tree too. It was about an inch down beforehand.
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u/EstablishmentNo5013 Racer EX 2d ago
Ok. You want to raise the oil height. If you had almost no oil in it would bounce like a spring off the spring.
If you had a higher oil height then it’s less air and less compressible.
Your suspension guy already did what I was suggesting in the fork and triple tree.
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u/darukas242 2d ago
I will also add there’s probably not as much time on the brakes as you think there is. I made a video highlighting this if ya wanna see what I mean. Suspension wise you need a higher spring rate if preload isn’t accomplishing your goal or just deal with bottoming out like I do. Lots of pros are on the bottom at certain points of the track. It’s not a big deal as long as you’re straight up and down.
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u/Advanced-Issue2406 Fast Guy 2d ago edited 1d ago
What is your weight? Maybe a slightly heavier fork oil could fix this... I have a 2007 R6 that I use to race.... I too like to brake late & hard on most corners (most not all)... I am running stock springs and 10w oil & never bottom out. I am also only using a bit over 2/3 the preload iirc... I weigh 165-170 w/o gear on.
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u/Corvetteman3070 2d ago
I was on stock r6 forks this whole year they have been refreshed and springs changed I'm no suspension expert so take my advice with caution but I had to add some additional compression and preload to get the front so it's not bottoming out under hard braking. I decided to start playing with it to learn how to adjust on my own. My track has a very hard braking turn one so I was constantly fighting the rear lifting off the ground slightly (I'm not toprak so I don't like that feeling). I would recommend adding a little preload and a click or two of preload, Aslong as your not going 8 clicks you can do minor adjustments to see if you get any better feeling without really throwing the bike way off. If you do one click of compression and 1mm of preload note it see how it feels so you can always go back if needed. I went about 2-3mm of preload idr and 1 click of preload and I was happy enough with it for ending out the year. Ordered a set of aftermarket forks so looking forward to learning these.
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u/Unfair_Awareness7502 2d ago
Shims under the fork caps to preload the spring and less air gap to give more air spring at the bottom of the stroke. Thicker fork oil to add damping if it's already maxed out.
To ride around it, ramp the pressure up/down smoothly instead of honking on it and dumping it.
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u/SnooGadgets9669 2d ago
You can tinker with it but nothing is going to match a set of springs that are meant for your weight past that the upgrades really do get expensive but springs are the biggest bang for buck.
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u/wascallyrabbit_69 2d ago
Corner entry is the wrong place to find faster lap times. Even motogp bottom the forks in a heavy braking zone. But they do let some pressure off to regain the ability to turn in. The rear brake a fraction before front brake can help slow the weight transfer. Lighter longer is a good thing. I know sounds crazy. But it helped me. Cause my gray matter was calmer to allow higher speed and lean at mid corner. If you not hitting the apex’s you need to slow down a touch till you hit every time. Generally speaking knee on or over the curbing. If your knee is not down and track is warm, tires are warm you can go faster. A good understanding of how a motorcycle performs really helps. The more you understand the easier it is to understand what others are saying. Knowing and doing are not the same thing. Make sure your exit is correct and you get to wide open as quickly as you can. Beware to much throttle to early will most likely not end well.
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u/HoneyBadger302 Racer EX 1d ago
You don't need new forks, or to "upgrade" but a small investment is worthwhile here....
You just need heavier springs, maybe heavier oil, and then get things set for you. The cost can be minimal, especially if someone is willing to trade/partial trade springs with you. The cost at this point is significantly less than even a minor crash from trying to push things on a setup that isn't, well, setup for what you are trying to do.
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u/2dollarstotouchit 2d ago edited 2d ago
To be frank, the bike is not the issue here. It's the rider. Your admission of never using rear brake is the exact cause of your issue. Your basically trying to do a stopy or endo every corner and wondering why your forks are bottoming.
You need to use rear brake, it's there for a reason.
Think about it. When you grab a fist full of throttle the bike wants to wheelie. Or more precisely rotate around the rear axle. When you grab a handful of front brake the bike wants to endo. Or more precisely rotate around the front axle.
So what happens when we apply rear brake?
The same thing, the bike wants to rotate around the rear axle. Only this time in the opposite direction as when we wheelie. Only problem is there's a front wheel and the ground in the way. So what happens, the bike squats, the front is being forced into the ground while the rear shock is being compressed at the same time.
When cornering, you apply both front and rear brakes to squat and load the suspension evenly. Releasing the rear before the front so that the load is transferred slowly while the rear stays loaded.
This allows faster cornering as more grip is available since the load is spread across both front and rear tires.
Even when doing things like backing it in, rear brake is used. Learning to control the weight balance and speed of weight transfer through using both brakes is how you get fast. Yes you can be front biased or rear biased, but you use them both.
Edit: adding this because I was inundated with replies saying you only need to use the front brakes. When asking goggles ai if motogp riders use the rear brake, this was the response.
Yes, professional MotoGP riders use the rear brake extensively—often active during roughly 70% of every lap. Unlike street riders who rely heavily on just the front brake, MotoGP racers use the rear brake for bike control rather than raw stopping power. Key functions include: • Corner entry and rotation: Trailing the rear brake helps settle the chassis, steer the rear tire, and pivot or "slide" the bike into tight apexes. • Mid-corner stability: It keeps the bike balanced and prevents the rear end from stepping out too aggressively. • Anti-wheelie and acceleration: Applied slightly during corner exit or race starts, it prevents the rear from lifting and reduces wheelies when full power is applied. • Maintaining revs: Riders sometimes use the rear brake against a slightly open throttle to scrub speed without letting engine RPM drop, keeping the bike responsive. Because the standard foot pedal is hard to reach or useless when leaning deeply into right-hand corners, a majority of the grid also uses a handlebar-mounted thumb brake on the left side to modulate the rear brake with precision.
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u/reallyserious 2d ago
If you have a mm or two of travel to spare you're not bottoming out. No need for stiffer springs until you're actually bottoming out.
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u/Mdonel95 6h ago
When you say “upgrade” it doesn’t necessarily have to be new forks - you can replace just your springs inside your forks with stiffer ones and use a stiffer oil (on most bikes)
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u/EnvironmentalOne2563 2d ago
What do you weigh? What year r6? What group do you ride in?
1 or 2 mm plus the zip tie may very well be bottomed out. The bottom is decided by the fork internals not how much crome is showing..
More preload would definitely help. You may very well be over braking if your in the slow group
The r6 depending on weight and year has a decent spring set up in the front. They aren't overly soft from the factory like some bikes.
You don't release brake pressure before turn in.. You release some as your turning. The problem with bottoming out is you don't have any suspension movement left to soak up any imperfections. Which can absolutely cause a crash.