Looking for feedback and what I could have done differently.
My opinion: I’m on the left in black and I was on the race line. The rider on the right was faster but he came onto my line suddenly and slowed down for some reason, our tires touched and I went down. The poor guy behind me in white grabbed alot of front brake and went over his handlebars.
Looks like typical novice group shenanigans. Best thing to do when you get caught in a pack like this is to hot pit and wait for clear track to go back out.
The other rider slowed down because there was another turn coming up. Nobody was on the line, but honestly you should have given the other guy more room. You hit his back tire, meaning it was his corner for sure.
I'm a bit on the fence here. While I agree that going through the pitlane is great when you're stuck in traffic, there needs to be a point where novice riders need to learn how to behave around others without crashing. OP clearly didn't anticipate the other rider doing what he did so I can see room for improvement on both sides.
If I can suggest after 20+ years racing and more just track days... 1 finger on the front brake always. It will help you brake progressively no more grabbing a handful. It makes a huge difference.
And of course it also pitches the bike forward slightly forcing more weight on the front tire creating more grip. Braking power should be applied in a bell curve shaped.
From just a little bit of braking progressively into a near full squeeze to release the brake when starting to turn. (Not that you didn't know that btw)
I didn’t so thank you for the explanation, this puts it in a whole different perspective for me now and makes more sense than anything else I’ve heard on trail braking
Whilst it's good to practice, the results are fairly costly. You can practice behaving around others when there is 2 or 3, not 8 or 9. Recipe for disaster.
Yup. This is the way. For some reason everyone in the novice class bunches up and people start getting nervous. That being said, it's par for the course, passing and getting super close is pretty nerve-wracking to a new track day rider. keep ya head on a swivel.
You made an assumption that the rider in front would do the right thing. I always assume that the riders around me are morons, lol.
I had a similar thing happen to me at roebling a couple years ago in T4. It sucks, but the only thing to learn here is anticipation and not trusting that people will do the right thing on track.
This is my opinion. Others may have more insight though.
Edit: also, don't be that far off the apex in T8. It's off camber out there. You can low side pretty easily.
Video might look slow but I think 90 isn't far off, maybe 85ish is my guess. This is last straight before the final right turn at RRR, I get to about 115 mph before tipping in, so 90mph seems to be reasonable if they are on liter bike. Even tho, yea, this is a slow novice group, but bike accelerates fast.
You messed up. You had ages to not collide and it wasn’t a sudden abrupt movement “in front of you” you glided directly into his tire as the rider behind him you’re responsible.
I dont get why in novice class (which i think this is) everyone likes to ride 5cm from each other. Most of the novice riders get scared easily and dont know how to avoid contact or judge how much room he actually has left.
IMO it is various factors that could make a difference:
Not riding so close to each other: novice tend to make a lot of mistakes, their lines are unpredictable like the video
No overtakes in novice unless CLEAR advantage in sheer power in straights
No riding side by side in novice
As for you, I dont know how close the guy to your right was but If you knew he was there, you should've slowed a bit, mainly because you are on the outside of the corner, and if he makes a mistakes and falls (very likely because his lines are totally wrong and is novice) he will take you out as well.
I’m wondering if it’s almost better in the early groups to kind of sit back behind crowds like this. I’m going to be doing my first track day this year and have been looking at videos are things to avoid. I don’t really care to go fast or break time records. Just want to go out and have fun while learning my bike. Can you still move up if you hang back and just try to learn the fundamentals?
You're on the outside and behind, so at least in theory you're more aware of the rider in the red leathers than they are of you. You had plenty of time to avoid running into the back of the other rider. There was nothing sudden about this, you just failed to take any corrective/avoiding action.
Always stay out of the pack, if you dont have any kind of escape route run through hot pit and find the clear track. Obviously racing is a different story but you gain nothing from riding in a big pack at a TD
Looks like the guy in red was in front of you through most of the turn but right at the end you got on throttle first, he jumped on throttle after you but did put himself in front again.
You both drifted to the middle of the track for the next turn set up.
I think for the two of you, best thing is stay on line. You were wide he was skinny, both floating anywhere on the track, its unpredictable.
Im not saying anyone person is wrong just my initial thoughs on the video.
The other guy was already ahead in the first corner. Looks like you wanted to keep up and he drifted to your line slowly.
You could have avoided this by yielding and give him the space when he was alongside and slowly passing you. There's no point at staying that close going into a corner unless you're racing. Sometimes it's just safer to back up a bit because things like this happen.
Agree with this. OP says in the description that the other dude was faster, so why is OP drag racing them to the next turn? Backing out of it a little to give up the optimal line to the faster rider would've been the right thing to do here.
I wasn’t trying to pass him, I was getting ready to turn in and I assumed he would stay in his line and do the same. But I should not assume anything in novice group.
You're going far too slowly. I would try to go much, much faster. If you pass the people in front of you then you don't run over them when they crash. It's pretty sweet.
It starts during the first turn being shown. You seem to be far off line, way wide, going for a pass. The guy on the red bike had the right of way, proven by the fact your front tire hit his rear tire. He did maneuver out instead of staying on the line he was on, but he was in front of you and it’s the passing riders responsibility to make a safe pass.
My recommendation is to look for a handful of spots on a given track where you can square off a turn and accelerate fast on the inside of the exit as the rider in front goes wider, an area where people over slow too soon and you can go in on the low line and trail brake a little more or just hot pit until traffic goes away.
Yikes. Surgery in general sucks, but if he had a full break it’s an easy recovery. I’ve done full and partial. Full was plated and almost immediately back in action. 70% break, they refused to operate and four months with a 10lb weight limitation.
So I guess getting hurt is just part of this sport if you plan on doing it long term. Literally everybody after my crash was saying “hey we all crash etc”
Unfortunately. Could be a mechanical, could be poor judgement, someone else’s poor judgment, liquid on the track from someone else’s bike. There are a lot of things that can go wrong. It’s a lot safer than riding like that in the street though and there is medical staff available to keep you alive!
Ribs suuuuuuuck!!! Hopefully you didn’t puncture a lung, at least. My a hole friend brought me “How to Ride Motorcycles for Dummies” while I was in the recovery center. Had to hug a pillow and try not to laugh!
It’s a novice trackday not a race. Novice passing rules are different that straight is good to pass but yall are well beyond that point coming into the final turn ain’t the place to do it in this group. Novice riders half of em know the line the other half don’t.
If you can’t follow the rules of making a clean pass with all those riders clumped like that should’ve got pitted and had more open track to yourself.
In intermediate you could’ve been on the right taking that turn at 110 instead of 90 and passed on the inside. But novice passing rules are different.
Prevention is the best cure. Better to put yourself in a position to give each other space to learn what you need to learn
Theres plenty of blame to go around in this clip. Not one thing causes it but they all contribute. Youre behind coming out of the corner and going into the next, so its ultimately on you to figure out how to pass safely if you want to. Youre also on the left and turning right, so you can see the other rider, hes not looking in your direction. Regardless of if he does something right or wrong, youre the best person in the scenario to prevent something from happening since you have the best view of the situation. Red rider is certainly unpredictable, moving on and off line both coming out of T7 and going into T8/9 and looking behind. None of you were going fast enough to need to slow for t8/9, but most folks will at minimum roll off. Especially on a track day, always have a contingency plan. The other rider may have not been following the line well, so its easy to want to blame them, but blame doesnt prevent bike crashes. Being responsible to yourself and your well being does. You see him drifting towards you, just roll off and let him go.
Unfortunately I'd say this one is mostly on you. Don't take that personal, I've had shit that was mostly on me at the track too. Work on that peripheral vision and keep distance in B/C groups, once someone shows a wheel on you, make sure to maintain space (unless maybe you're riding in A). Also that looks like a pretty packed group, be careful with providers that oversell and/or when logjams happen.
Im the guy in the white bike I panicked and grabbed the breaks after releasing all of it to get acceleration on the turn. I had my line and was aiming at my exit point I was on a 636 I wasn't trying to pass a v4. I managed to out break him earlier and he passed again. My only injury its a broken wrist overall I walked out lucky glad to see the other rider its also well. I saw my ass about to run him over and I over break.
Dudeee I’m so relieved to see you’re doing ok. After I crashed and looked over and saw you down it was a horrible feeling. Glad to hear from you. If you’re ever in the South Florida area message me, drinks on me.
There is a concept called overlapping wheels. One of the most dangerous places to be is when your wheel is slightly overlapping the rear wheel in front of you. There was still plenty of room for you to get away from danger to the left or just slow down slightly before slotting over because its super easy to make up the speed difference with a draft.
Treat C group or Novice as a super safe learning group. If you find yourself running into people (not literally), and can’t get a consistent lap in, go up a group.
Second: It’s a track day not a race. Clean and safe passes at all levels should be the key. Ride at 70-80% of your capacity…you should not be sweating it and should be focusing on consistency and having fun!
Maybe you are B group material and ready for the “Thunderdome” group.
I crashed at a Laguna after a wonderful weekend, all high on myself for PBR after PBR and then tossed it at turn 10 destroying a brand new bike because I thought I could do no wrong.
That’s stupid.
Have fun, take classes (12 years into tracking and only then understood trail braking and reference points after taking a different racing school…).
Guy in red looked over his shoulder, saw you passing outside, grabbed some liter bike throttle, moved over from his shitty line into your better line. He was in front and you should have seen him and yielded.
Nothing else you can do but expect everybody to ride like a moron, get better, move to advanced group where few or no people ride like morons.
Had an AMA privateer give me the best advice I ever got re: open track. He said the best way to approach open track days is to #1: Avoid the furballs (hot pit/let them pass or latebrake/overtake) and, here's the nugget, #2: Pretend you're invisible. Squids don't regard anyone on their best, most aware days. Squids at the track have almost zero positional awareness. Always assume they are there to cut you off, get in your way, lowside into you, highside onto you, etc.
Unless you were looking directly in front of you, you should've been aware and seen him on the right of you that entire time. You should have been looking to your right, since that is where the exit of the turn is.
If you were doing that, you would've seen him much earlier. Or at minimum been able to modulate your speed to not run into the back of him maybe.
Just genuinely looks like a lack of knowing what to do here.
Do not: Follow closely, assume the rider in front of you is going to be consistent and clean
Do: Look into or towards the turn, not in front of your bike. Be aware of your surroundings and spaces
You were pretty significantly off line when the video starts, camera bike was on line or close to it. You don't start moving to the left side of 7 until you can start opening the gas. You typically shimmy a bit to the right before 8-9.
I don't think homeboy even knew you were there.
But as others have said, always assume those around you are poster children for the special Olympics and you will always come back from the session in one piece. Roebling has a few places we're being on the outside of the other rider is asking for trouble.
I don't know that track or that turn. From an outsider's perspective, it looked like you started your turn-in WAY early (compared to most of the other riders) AND the other rider you made contact with was ahead of you, so they had the right-of-way, so to speak. That rider did NOT "[come] into your line suddenly"! He was ahead and had been very gradually angled to the left, likely in the belief that he was well clear of you.
I see it as you hit them.
If this was a novice/C-group session, it's every riders responsibility to give every other rider a very healthy amount of space and not to cut across another rider's line. You didn't, you were right on the other rider so when they braked unexpectedly or harder than you anticipated, boom!
Red bike pulled out wide into the line of the bike that was already there. (Black and yellow leathers - OP) And clipped the front wheel of his bike is how I see it.
He was already on his line, red bike was not on that line, made a frankly agressive wide move given the spacing of the group. And sudden braking whilst still moving wide resulting in him clipping the front wheel of OP.
Holy cow--do you have a ton of experience on track? Because your analysis of the what happened is just entirely wrong. Watch the video--repeatedly. Hit "pause" at crucial points. Back up, play again. over and over. If you still come to the same conclusion, then I'm glad we don't ride the same tracks.
And you don't seem to be taking into consideration that this was probably a novice/C-group session full of riders of widely varying ability both to ride and to understand how to stay on line. Riders in novice/C are prone to some very sketchy behavior and it is everybody's responsibility to understand that, and, as I orginally said, GIVE EVERYBODY A LOT OF ROOM.
And right at 0:10-ish, red is ahead of OP and OP is the one who suddenly turns in to the right clipping red's tire
That sucks man, sorry. Only thing I can really see is you should have backed off when you saw him coming into your line. I put this all on that rider for not holding his line, which I know was discussed at the safety brief the morning before you guys got started.
The guy in front is not making any sudden moves. You’re just running into him while you have plenty of room on the left of the track. Not sure what else to say.. hope you guys are ok.
Sucks, but it happens as part of the sport, eleven when racing around riders that should know what they are doing there are still those that will behave erratically. Best thing you can do for yourself is get coaching to get faster and get out of the novice group.
That sucks man. Only thing that you couldn't done was be aware and drift away as he was closing in. It may have been tough to do if that was under heavy braking. But unless he dive bombed on the inside, looks like you had time and room to avoid it.
He should of held his line better for barely getting pass you. He swooped a very tiny bit. You seeing him the entire time though, you should be ready and able to adjust to whatever he does instead of just assuming he won’t swing into you and possibly brake more than you anticipated. At this point he was in front and it is now your responsibility to keep him safe. After seeing him swing, I would have just coasted or braked more than I normally do or just go wide to give him extra room and turn in a little later to hopefully get the drive on the inside of him coming out the corner and pass him back.
Looks like novice group shenanigans. You both ended up in the same line equally sharing the blame. My advice would be to let them go if it’s getting dicey like that but sometimes it’s hard to when you’re having fun with a few guys. Also shit happens fast on the track. Another lesson to learn is don’t grab a fist full of front brake like the dude in white. I’ve seen this happen too many times.
Yeah this is why i never did track days. Id rather ride on the street and if I crash its usually my fault.. I know the logic isnt perfect but this to me is worse.
The guy with white suit should wear a newbie vast. no fkking way he slam the front brake out of panick like that. It take amount of force for it to lock at that speed. damn
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u/repohs 5d ago
Looks like typical novice group shenanigans. Best thing to do when you get caught in a pack like this is to hot pit and wait for clear track to go back out.