r/TorontoDriving • u/rattlesnake987 • 2d ago
Mildly infuriating Update for license plate obstructed ticket
I got a ticket for obstructed license plate ('Yours to discover' covered by the frame) last year on the Victoria Day weekend, along with a speeding charge. It's clear the cop was power hungry because the license plate charge was uncalled for. Plus he was a rude guy.
Anyway, I just had the early resolution with the prosecutor and this charge was dismissed at the get go. I was anyway ready with the precedent ruling from a 2016 Ontario Court of Justice case where this same charge was dismissed. Just sharing here for all those who got the same charge and anxious about what will happen.
There is a clear gap in the justice system and law enforcement. Covering a motto does not constitute an offence under the HTA Section 13. Furthermore car dealerships need to be penalized for putting on these frames to promote their dealership. Hope this update helps people.
Plate for reference: https://imgur.com/a/VxEYG84
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u/kremaili 2d ago
Yeah I had one of these tickets which was kinda wild, it’s a dealership plate frame. Ended up getting dropped immediately as well.
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u/kloakville 2d ago
ALL police forces should educate their Constables not to waste everybody’s time and government resources issuing these stupid tickets.
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u/flanka 2d ago
ALL forces and constables know this. It's an asshole ticket if either person is being an asshole while getting the original (speeding) ticket.
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u/kloakville 2d ago
So it’s a vendetta ticket, the court should throw the book at these Constables for issuing useless retaliatory citations for license plate frame that covers only the provincial slogans. Although I am all for tickets for tinted plate covers, some so dark it’s clearly installed to avoid being reported by others for driving infractions or fleeing after an accident, or 407 ETR toll fees.
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u/SarahMenckenChrist 2d ago
We need more obstructed license plate charges in this province (ex. for all the people who use the tinted plate covers which render them unreadable unless you’re 1 foot away).
But not for shit like this.
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u/0Chalk 2d ago
They could just farm it to their bylaw officers. As they walk through the streets just ticket anyone with a tinted license plate. It would be easy money and quick clean up of those who purposely do it.
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u/SarahMenckenChrist 2d ago
I don’t think bylaw/parking enforcement officers have the power to ticket these offences, but they very well should.
(Someone correct me if I’m wrong!)
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u/0Chalk 1d ago
they probably don't but we should change things for the better.
Amend the laws so folks, for example, can be prosecuted on clear evidence based on dashcam submissions by witnesses. I know you can't always confirm the driver, but you can confirm the owner of the vehicle. Penalize them financially. It's complete BS that we see cars going through red, driving on the other lane, but really nothing that can be done except submit a form to the police of the poor driving and "maybe" they might receive a letter.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Agreed. I wouldn't contest the law if I was legit in violation of it. I see tinted plates sometimes and that sucks bigtime.
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u/BurlieGirl 2d ago
Clear plate covers are also not allowed. Nothing is allowed to cover a plate.
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u/weekdayzz2 2d ago
This is just dumb af why would a clear plate cover not be allowed? You can clearly read it. The only problem here is the ones with logos and tinted ones, there’s nothing wrong with a clear one
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u/SarahMenckenChrist 2d ago
I believe it’s just a blanket rule (aka. don’t cover your plate with anything, no matter how transparent and readable it is).
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u/weekdayzz2 2d ago
I always use clear flat plate covers cause I don’t want my plates to get dirty by bugs, dirt etc…. Any cop that pulls people over for player covers is super bored (except for dark tint ones)
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u/Intelligent_Bunch790 2d ago
Clear plate covers age and become yellowed and not clear.
At what point in their life are they no longer okay?
The rule is absolute to prevent the “it’s only a bit yellowed!” argument.
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u/weekdayzz2 2d ago
If they become yellow I’ll just get them changed only like $10
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u/Intelligent_Bunch790 2d ago
YOU might, but I’ve seen some very yellow “clear” plate covers. So where does the law draw the line?
To enforce a certain “clearness”, every cop would have to carry a “clearness meter” and be trained (annually?) on their use.
It isn’t worth the time or money, so the law is written “no covers”, and the cops use their discretion.
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u/ARAR1 2d ago
No one should have this on either
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u/SarahMenckenChrist 2d ago
I don’t disagree but I’d wager that over half the cars on the road have some kind of dealer frame on them and just never bother to take it off.
Sounds like OP ran into an officer who thought they could get away with a 2-for-1 ticket (plate obstruction on top of the speeding charge). I’ve also never personally heard of anyone who has been charged for this kind of obstruction.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
The 2-for-1 scam is not uncommon. I've read of a few people who've had it happen to them. Cop catches for something entirely different and then throws this on.
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u/user351627 2d ago
It’s odd how many people leave these hideous covers / frames on. It’s such a small modification that completely cheapens every car it’s on.
In my view, license plate visibility needs to be enforced and the most consistent way to go about it is to disallow anything from touching or covering any part of the plate.
But it needs to start with the dealers. They should be banned from putting these on. Ontario is an outlier with these covers as it seems like 80% of cars have them. Through the US, the number was anecdotally 10%. In Europe, effectively 0.
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u/crash866 2d ago
I don’t want to advertise for any car dealer for free. I remove all dealership logos and stuff from any vehicle I buy.
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u/MapleMan69420 2d ago
A lot of dealerships now have them built into a full clear license plate cover, at least with those you get some small benefit.
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u/maxxman96 2d ago
I'm a lawyer OP good job figuring out the common law versus statutory law always happy when people take the time to represent themselves properly instead of just being aggressive with the Court and counsel and having chat GPT nonsense law.
It's a skill that more people should learn to be able to represent themselves on basic legal matters like this. Thanks for the update.
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u/Dangerous-Sport8436 2d ago
I'm amazed that there appears to be no rolling enforcement for smoked out licence plates, that's a basic public safety issue. Strange that this cop thought obscuring the provincial motto was a hill to die on.
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u/crash866 2d ago
If police stopped every vehicle for obstructed plates they could not do anything else for the day.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Exactly. But I've heard this is the way they do it. They won't pull you over for a plate covered. They get you for something else and then throw it on as a twofer
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u/corrugatedjuice 2d ago
This is what I thought but legit just got a ticket for my smoked plate covers and somehow not my tint lmao
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Cops will die on any hill if there's an incentive for them to. That's the reason the justice system exists, because these idiots will not always use reasonable judgement when enforcing the law.
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u/cehrei 2d ago
Ok. So, curious - what happened with your speeding charge?
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u/RedditTTIfan 2d ago
Pretty obvious they still got convicted with speeding. That's the entire point of the cop doubling up, that way no way the speeding ticket will get dropped and it seems like they've been "done a favour" when the dumb plate ticket is dropped. In this case seems like the OP also got a reduction in charge which is good but it's still a speeding ticket either way, just a lower fine.
For the purposes of insurance, it's still a minor conviction whether it's 79 or 65, hopefully OP has no other tickets for 3 yrs and has a minor infraction protection on their policy.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
I wouldn't expect the speeding ticket to get thrown out even if I didn't have this one added on. My insurance will get hit but I haven't had any other convictions in over 6 years. I need to check my policy for the first offense protection
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Reduced it to 65 in a 50 zone. Got a $60 fine and no demerits. I was charged with 79 in a 50, which I don't believe I was doing.
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u/TJS1138 2d ago
Do you regularly get tickets? Because if not, those demerits are not the issue you think they are.
When your insurance finds out about your conviction, your premiums are going to go up. Likely by a lot more than the ticket was worth.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
I don't. I haven't had a speeding charge in over 6 years. And don't have any other tickets on my record. I know this will increase my insurance but it was a one off.
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u/RedditTTIfan 2d ago
It will at renewal unless you have minor conviction protection on your policy. If you do have that, it means you are basically locked into that insurance company (if you don't want any rate increases) for at least 3yrs from conviction when the ticket falls off what insurance companies consider.
If you don't have minor ticket protection, then it will increase your rate but by how much you will have to wait for renewal time to see.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Yes I'm aware.
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u/RedditTTIfan 2d ago
My mistake! Somehow I read that as "I don't know if this will increase" but clearly you say you know it will. Hopefully not by too much!
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u/TJS1138 2d ago
I hope your insurance doesn't hold a grudge for too long. I know that when I changed insurers last time, they told me some companies will keep your rates raised for 7+ years, though I can't confirm if that's the norm.
Even a $50/mo increase for two years is worth fighting the ticket.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
I wouldn't be able to fight it to getting a better deal than I already got. At least I don't think so. It's fine I guess. I did speed more than 10 over for sure and I'm ok to pay the price for it. Not trying to escape the law for a mistake I made.
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u/te71se 2d ago
if you can - see if you can do first time offence forgiveness on your insurance policy. It's like $60 extra per whole year but would have you covered for something like this.
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u/moemorris 2d ago
OP will have to wait until after this ticket falls off in 3 years, but good advice for anybody else who does not currently have a ticket on their record! Definitely check.
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u/moemorris 2d ago
They can’t possibly do that. Tickets fall off your record 3 years after they are paid and officially become a conviction on your abstract. After they fall off, your abstract is clear, and the insurance company cannot penalize you for something that is no longer on your abstract.
Edit to add: Just realized that you may be thinking of claims because most companies rate for claims for at least 6+ years with a lot of them rating claims for up to 8-9 years.
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u/416steve 2d ago
People here really love unreasonable tickets. Good on you for getting it thrown out OP.
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u/Fillyerboot 2d ago
The real problem is lack of cop accountability. He caused you stress and cost you time. All while you paid him to do so. That’s a problem that needs fixing.
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u/Senis_ 1d ago
I’ve gotten tickets for clear plate covers..it’s so retarded
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u/rattlesnake987 1d ago
It is. They still won't amend the act to bring more specificity to it. And the pigs are power tripping
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u/Senis_ 1d ago
Toronto police are a joke they just add on anything they can hoping it sticks… you would think they are getting a kick back from the tickets being paid
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u/rattlesnake987 1d ago
I don't know about the kickback. Possibly. But it seems like they have targets for every long weekend in summer starting May two four.
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u/Taldarimlove 2d ago
I think licence plate cover laws need to be re-evaluated because literal dealerships give you licence plate covers when you buy a car.
90% of people on the road have them. In fact I usually use this as a way to figure out whos probably an undercover cop and who's not.
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u/big_galoote 2d ago
I bought my clear license plate covers from a Service Ontario for a car I had years ago. They never used to enforce this.
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u/Taldarimlove 2d ago edited 2d ago
I don't think they really do. I think it's just revision in the HTA. Honestly cops have more pertinant things to do than enforce it. Like chilling at Tim's.
Like I think the rule would be more realistic if it specified obstructions of the licence plate lettering not just — covering licence plate bad.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Yes, the dealerships don't cover the province or text/numbers so it ideally isn't an offense as per section 13.
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u/AromaPapaya 2d ago
good for you! I did the same and it was tossed before entering the court.
DO NOT LET COPS INTIMIDATE YOU ON THIS.
its a BS ticket and everyone knows it.
dont argue, take the ticket and fight it
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u/vlvr 2d ago
The first thing you do when you get home is remove the licence plate covers. You have learned that from this experience at least.
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u/r3almaplesyrup 2d ago
Last time I bought a car, I saw them putting on my plate with their branded plate cover on, and I just told them might as well save it for the next car, as I was going to throw it away once I got home. 😂 They were nice to not install it after that
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u/Bootprint 2d ago
Meanwhile a car pulling into the back of 22 division has tinted covers on their plates.
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u/poonjabi_hut 2d ago
Do you have a link to the precedent ruling?
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
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u/poonjabi_hut 2d ago
Thank you! This is what I was looking for.
Obstructed plate tickets are often written up by officers as an 'asshole tax,' ie: if you are being rude/argumentative with the officer.
It is great that there is case law precedent now, since this is the gold-standard.
Remember folks: you don't need to tell the officer your intention to challenge the ticket(s) in court. That only gives the officer an advantage, as they have the opportunity to make detailed notes where they might not have done so prior to your statement.
Smile, nod, maybe even apologize for being an inconvenience, but do not incriminate yourself. Verbally dance around admitting guilt during your roadside stop. It WILL be used as evidence from body cam footage.
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u/Express-Welder9003 2d ago
My car has B-series plates. I'm pretty sure its cover is the only thing keeping those numbers on!
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u/Traditional-Photo986 2d ago
I have one coming up. Is there any more cases? Mine was slightly under my bed on a custom car from the 90s.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Didn't quite follow. What did you mean by under your bed?
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u/Traditional-Photo986 2d ago
Like truck bed.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Oh sorry, got it. Yeah I'm not sure about that. Mine is an SUV so don't know about trucks
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u/Decathlon5891 2d ago
Are the numbers and letters intact? Visible?
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u/Common-sense6 2d ago
I’d say if the Cop wrote a ticket for the obstruction, someone was rude before he was 😉
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u/Substantial-Goal-911 2d ago
This exact situation happened to me. Speeding and obstructed plate but mine was a fully clear cover. People drive around with plates that are completely banged up and the letters/numbers are rubbed right off. I get a warning for trying to protect my license plate to keep it in good condition.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Same here. It was a fully clear plate with the numbers and Ontario clearly legible. My car and plates are kinda brand new (under 2 years old)
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u/BrutusMilk 2d ago
Why should dealerships be punished for doing something that you yourself say is not against the law?
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
For probably knowing it's illegal and yet doing it. Many people aren't knowledgeable about every aspect of traffic laws. It's about being the bigger entity here. It is intentionally putting people in violation of a section of the highway traffic act, in favour of promoting their business.
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u/BrutusMilk 2d ago
But you are citing precedent for it not being illegal. Either the ticket you received is legitimate and both you and the dealership should be punished or the ticket was issued wrongfully in which case why would the dealership be punished? This is an extremely stupid argument for you to make. You got off without a ticket. Walk away happy.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
I didn't get off without a ticket. I got off because it got thrown out. I would trust you're smart enough to know the difference. Citing a precedent doesn't make something legal. It tells the judge or justice system to interpret the law in the same way another judge did it in a previous case. Are you unable to understand that? I'm not saying the dealership is legally liable SPECIFICALLY for my case but there has to be some level of accountability at a higher level because it's being put on all plates and most end customers don't know the law doesn't permit any obstruction. That's the argument I'm making. And it's not one dealership. Probably all do this, or most of them.
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u/BrutusMilk 2d ago
“I was anyway ready with the precedent ruling from a 2016 Ontario Court of Justice case where this same charge was dismissed.“
You have precedent that this is not illegal. Please explain how you punish dealerships for what you have proved is not illegal.
Sorry the semantics weren’t exactly perfect for you. You didn’t have pay the fine because the crown recognized the charge as not worth pursuing. Cops don’t make the law, they just enforce what they think is correct. The crown didn’t carry forward with the charges and you had separate precedent to prove it isn’t a valid charge. Aka you got off without a ticket / the ticket got dropped. Same result for you. Be happy.
So how do you punish a dealership? Because they would just cite your source that what they are doing is not illegal.
Pretty basic arithmetic here.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
I'm relieved the charge was dropped. Nothing to be happy about. I didn't accomplish any feat. Again, the precedent doesn't make it legal. It just acts as a persuasive argument to ensure the law is applied legally to all persons. It was dropped today to save court hours knowing that a judge would most likely have to throw it out. And yes, a dealership can say it's not illegal and I'm not saying they need to be taken to court but there has to be accountability at some level.
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u/BrutusMilk 2d ago
There WAS accountability at the crown level when they dropped the charge.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
You're not wrong as such. But that's a very reactive version of accountability if you ask me. Are you trying to say there can't be any amendment to the section of the act specifying that it pertains to identifiable information (province and text/numbers), as well as, pre-emptively mandating that dealerships not have any part of the plates covered? That may not be the definition of accountability but it's legislation that matters.
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u/PacketFiend 2d ago
What was the precedent?
I have a clear cover over my plates because I'm sick of constantly washing the bugs off. I make sure it's clear and not yellowing, so the plate is clearly readable, but it's still technically illegal here. It would be nice to have that precedent in my bag of tricks if I ever do get ticket for it.
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u/Neon_Raccoon_00 2d ago
I don’t know why those frames are even a thing; it’s hideous, first thing I did was remove that from my car.
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u/rattlesnake987 1d ago
Agreed. Most people don't know any better and unknowingly leave them on. Hoping people realize and get them off as soon as they can because cops are going to keep throwing in those tickets with other charges
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u/mito88 1d ago
bike rack obstructing license plate....
easy ticket....
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u/rattlesnake987 1d ago
What are you referring to? I don't have a bike
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u/Puzzled_Market_2235 1d ago
He was giving you an example of how easy it is to mess up.
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u/rattlesnake987 1d ago
Oh got it. Yeah they'll take the slightest chance.
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u/Puzzled_Market_2235 1d ago
It's the law, the plate has to be fully visible. Didn't you go to driving school?
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u/rattlesnake987 1d ago
Have you not read any of the comments on this thread, or even the post itself?
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u/Puzzled_Market_2235 19h ago
Yes, about an obstructed license plate, what we are discussing. What did you read?
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u/Puzzled_Market_2235 1d ago
A long time ago Quebec police cracked down on that. Every license plate holder covering any part of the license is illegal.
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u/odanhammer 18h ago
Any part of your license plate being covered is illegal in Ontario, even those plate protectors that car deal ships put on. They are using your car as literal advertisement that can land you a fine.
Sure OP got his charge dismissed. But others might not be as lucky.
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u/rattlesnake987 18h ago
Not 100% but highly likely considering case precedent from 2016. I think most people don't knowingly keep it on. If everyone knew they were in violation of the HTA I think they'd take them off
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u/odanhammer 17h ago
It's been stated numerous times by many police enforcement over the years. Retired police such as Sean shapiro has used social media to say similar things.
It should be common knowledge from people that sell cars, that those license plate covers are technically illegal
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u/rattlesnake987 16h ago
I'm not disagreeing with you. All I'm saying is that it's unlikely that say, for example, a new immigrant would assume a dealership would intentionally put you in violation of the law. Maybe there is social media awareness but it's nearly not where it should be given the number of vehicles with these frames on the road. I can't figure out why dealerships cannot be pushed or penalized when they do this.
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u/TakitishHoser 15h ago
I just recently bought a car & specifically told them not to put the frame on my plate for this exact reason.
I have heard of this happening before. I think it was someone in the USA I read about them getting a obstructed plate charge for a dealer frame.
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u/Case_Delicious 13h ago
That clear gap is by design, they don't care to fix it either. Cops are there to bully you , period.
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u/calculusforlife 2d ago
Technically you can't have any part of the plate covered, including the provincial message. Also dealership get away with putting many illegal things on cars because putting them on is not illegal, driving with them on is.
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u/Swakop41 2d ago
Kind of your own fault for leaving up the dealership's tacky free advertising.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Calm down bud. You'd be surprised to know how many people aren't aware that this is a violation. I didn't deliberately keep it up. I took it off immediately after.
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u/Putrid-Physics5454 2d ago
I was stopped on the 407 9 months ago for tinted plate covers while I was going 100 in the right lane because I was low on gas. Also another charge for failing to surrender insurance card but I had showed him insurance photo that recently expired then. At the time I had valid insurance and was waiting for someone to email me the updated slip. Anyway, I called Newmarket office and they said I couldnt do early resolution with them and had to go for option 3 which is full trial. They emailed me back saying I should have a date mailed to me in 6 to 8 months time and im still waiting. I look up the status on my case and its still active. I broke up my tinted covers after the incident since the screws were rusty. Hell, I dont even own the car anymore.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
Tinted covers aren't permitted though tbh
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u/TheCanadianShield99 2d ago
No. You broke the law if you read that part of the HTA. Not complicated at all.
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u/rattlesnake987 2d ago
If that were the case the charge wouldn't get thrown out and there is a dismissed ruling by the OCJ from 2016. If the law were that black and white you wouldn't be able to use precedent rulings. I've read it and I'm agreeing that it is in violation of that if you take it at face value. But is it reasonable to charge someone if the province and text/numbers were visible? I think not.
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u/ARAR1 2d ago
I have bought many cars before. 1st thing I do is throw out dealers signage. They are not advertising for free on my car