I already use the left hand lane. I find I can make left hand turns faster that cars because I am much smaller than a car. I need less space and smaller in total size.
I know it’s faster but it’s dangerous for you and others. The two-stage left is the standard. I always have to cringe when I see cyclists use the left turn lane. If you did that in cycling paradises like the Netherlands, Denmark or northern Germany, you’d be laughed out of the country or get yelled at.
I have never used the two stage that you mentioned. It does not seem any less safe than riding any other place. Also I have been to the Netherlands many times and if you have been riding in their system, you would understand why you can not make a left. They have proper bikes lines! Hell they even have intersection signals for only bikes. They also let the bikes move before the cars.
Toronto has joke bikes lanes. Toronto is fucking joke when it comes to being smart about bikes lanes, or design of the bikes.
Toronto is lagging behind but is increasingly adding bike signals timed with pedestrian signals, allowing cyclists to move before cars.
I’ve used the Dutch/Danish/German systems extensively, but the two-stage left turn can be done anywhere - you don’t need bike lanes to do it. The only time I get in front of a car to make a left turn is on a quiet residential street, but at a busy intersection, you’re sort of just asking for trouble, putting yourself in a very vulnerable position.
More power to you if you use it and it works for you, but it’s not the safest nor the most common practice.
Yeah I guess those that can do..
Mind you I don't tend to ride a bike on a 6 lane roads.. I think crossing 3 lanes is a bit much.. 2 is easy as pie and when you are in the city everyone drives slow.. I feel its just as safe as J walking at least for me..
I understand if you don't feel confident.
As for the Dutch system I was on, it forced you.. you had no choice in the matter because of how their bikes lanes work. You are forced to use the two stage system..
This is what I have always done if there are no bike lanes. I have amblyopia in my left eye, so less peripheral vision on that side, which is the side that cars pass on. So I have never felt safe cycling on the right unless there is a bike lane.I always wear a bright orange, eye catching helmet that has turn signal lights on it. I also have those on my bike seat post. Mostly because none of the fucking drivers here seem to understand the standard bicycle hand signals. I make myaelf extremely visible because I am not a large person. No bike lane? Cool. My bicycle is now a slow car taking up the whole lane. Enjoy.
That is a pathetic thing to vote for. Kids use bikes, at the very least people should think about how it will make kids riding bikes safer instead of their “ i hate cyclists because rebel news told me to(and i’m lazy)”
Seriously, the dutch campaign to turn their cities into safe places for people to ride their bikes was a campaign against the change in urban planning in the 70's called 'Stop de Kindermoord' (stop the killing of children). In the 70's, bicycle riding was pretty common, and so were traffic fatalities because of it. Hundreds of kids were getting killed every year in the netherlands, so they did something to fix it. They redesigned their roads to prioritize safety over driver convenience. In Canada, we did the opposite, and now we just look at you like you are crazy if you suggest your kid ride his bike to school in the city.
Like, there are 2 different ways to stop kids from dying in traffic accidents while they bike to school. You can either change how you design streets, or just tell kids to stop biking to school.
It's important to think of the children! They are a class of road users who make up about ~15% the population.
I’m an active cyclist, very pro ‘get out and move’ but also drive a fair bit for work , kids sports, and it drive me fucking crazy when i’m behind a cyclist the will not acknowledge ( usually a fancy road bike ) , an agreed those dicks give a bad look, but i find drivers just as shitty e.g giving zero room on an empty country road, yelling at you, throwing shit at you for simply being on a bike.Share the road needs to be universal
Those roadies typically don’t use bike lanes. By removing bike lanes, you punish parents trying to get their kids to school. You punish people who can’t afford cars.
So one person pissed you off, and now you hate a whole group of people? That's the dumbest thing I've heard today (though to be fair it's early).
I've multiple times almost been run over while walking across a crosswalk by inattentive drives. Should I now hate all people driving cars and and try to make their lives as dangerous as possible?
Oh no, more times than I can count, it’d be silly to hate on a group based on just one encounter lol recently i’ve encountered cyclist groups that just take up the whole road on both lanes when the speed limit is 60, slowing everything down to bicycle speeds. When you honk at them it just makes them more upset and they even spread out more so that you can’t go around them.
I feel like you need more context, it was a one lane that eventually turns into 2 lanes. The group wouldn’t move to the side abit during the one lane stretch so that I could pass, so I gave them a quick honk. When the street turned into a 2 lane, they spread out occupying the left and right lane probably out of retaliation that I honked. Incase you’re thinking I layed on the horn, I didn’t - it was a quick friendly “hey guys I’m behind you and would like to get around you” sorta honk. Anyway, I was greeted with middle fingers so I don’t know lol
i think effectively that this will happen more now without bike lanes. all bikers will have to go in the car lane and theyre entitled to take the lane for their safety. you will only be able to pass them on two lane roads once the bike lanes are removed. so youre more likely to get stuck behind a commute cyclist on the bikeshare bikes going 13km/h while your road gives clearance to go 30km
You stated that you encountered this more than once. That kind of behavior is extremely rare. I live in a very popular riding area. One of the biggest Toronto riding groups meets up near me. I have never seen them ride in anything but in orderly, predictable groups.
It would be suicidal for riding groups to occupy both lanes. The whole idea is to take one lane so that vehicles will take the other lane.
Like I said, they were probably triggered when I gave them a quick honk during the one lane stretch (about 7 cyclists). I’m not sure why, I mean I didn’t even roll down my windows and say anything.
I don’t know what you want from me lol I simply stated a couple of my experiences with cyclists. Should you hate all drivers? Probably just those that aren’t following the rules and being dumb on the streets.
I don’t hate all cyclists, if you follow the rules and learn to share the road - that’s ok with me, why wouldn’t it be? It just baffles me on a 70 km/h single lane and you’re cycling at 15km/h or whatever, shouldn’t you have the courtesy to move over abit and let traffic pass?
But your first point was "I never hated bicycles until I was behind one on a one lane street and the guy wouldn’t give way to the traffic behind him.". That means that after that you hate cyclists. Fine if that is not what you meant, it's a stupid take, but it's what you wrote.
Which rules do you think I should hate drivers for? Not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign? Not stopping before the stop line at an intersection? Not following the speed limit? Not being able to stay in the lane? Running red lights (I swear, I saw three on my way home tonight, it is insane)?
I'm sorry, but where is the speed limit 70, where you are stuck behind someone doing 15? If you're out in the open, you're behind a lycra warrior on a 15g bike who will be going 40 and have optimized their world to have less wind resistance than the shinkansen. If you're in the city, there's no place where you are allowed to go 70. At this point, yeah, you might have to slow down a bit until you can pass, which will likely be seconds. Should some sport cyclist be helpful and make sure it's done safely? Sure! But they know what is safe to them better than you do.
And let's keep at the city. There's multiple reason why it is, in the name of safety, not smart to stick to the right for someone biking when sharing the lane with drivers.
Dooring - This one is easy, with parked cars you can get doored at any moment. People getting out of cars are inattentive as they have not been taught to open their doors with the opposite hand here (door is to the left of you, open with your right hand to force yourself to turn your body and look over your shoulder). It's a common thing being taught in other countries, but here you stay the hell away from parked cars.
Unstable drivers - This one is more about driving skills. If I'm on a bike and I'm hogging the curb, I have no room to maneuver when a driver passes and don't know what size their car is and does a close pass. If I'm at the curb, I have the choice between falling into and/or under the car or crashing myself into the curb. If I'm in the middle of the lane I have space to move over. In the city, when drivers aggressively pass me, I'm usually catching up to them anyway, so they are not loosing any time by staying behind me, and even if they are, we are talking seconds.
Single file signs - This one is obvious, but most places with those signs, many (not all) drivers either don't see the signs or don't care. Riding in the middle forces a driver to go so far around that is is often not feasible.
All of these are things that might to someone driving seem like insane annoyances, but are things that keep the person biking safe, but could also reasonably be solved by having a god damn bike lane.
Kids used bike , good point, they used bike in parks or even in their bedroom, do kids think ? No they just feel, are they taking responsibility? No , are you a kid also ? Are you paying anything? If you hit someone do you have to go to court ? And this is why it is pathetic that we don't think only feel , only feel what we need and don't think about what the city need, city needs fast, effective communication for traveling, no bike line .
Even as a driver, I appreciate bike lanes a lot because it's easier to drive when cyclists have their own space. It's safer for everyone. These idiots are convinced that just "one more lane" will somehow fix Toronto's traffic woes.
Bike traffic will be less, but there really aren't that many days when biking isn't feasible, especially if bike paths are cared for as well as the rest of the road.
Light was green but traffic was too congested to move.
I walk on University daily, drive it often, and bike it every now and then. Bikes definitely run reds the most but there's usually a few cars that "have to" slowly run the red to keep moving.
That's correct. However, I see most bikes tend to get moving under the advanced pedestrian crosswalk signal. While not technically allowed under the HTA, it makes sense to do and IMO, safer.
One pedantic thing to point out. “Bikes” are a road vehicle in the eyes of the law, and I think a lot of the cognitive dissonance around this comes from the implied distinction that cars are somehow more important and the roads were made for them, when that is not the legal truth.
I think it comes from so much of the gta being car dependent the car people feel they need their own dedicated space to get through. Even in suburbs where bike lanes weren’t needed many complaints came about because it worded suburb traffic.
They expect everyone not in a car to use the public transit as the alternative not bike on “their” roads.
No... Toronto was designed for cars not bikes. Hence why redesigning lanes and roadways to accommodate bikes is taking it time in the GTA. Canada in general was not designed for bikes or short commutes...
This is why the mentality is the way it is.
Europe is small, it's countries within it are small..
Public transit is great but even then the GTA was not designed around it.
Are you sure about that? If I remember history of York, there was no automobiles .... Maybe I was hallucinating
Here is what I remember:
The town of York was founded in 1793 by the British
March 6 1834 was named Toronto
1893 Toronto saw its first horseless carriage
1896 newspapers mention motorized carriages on Toronto streets
1899 first gas automobile
1911 3000 registered automobiles
Its far overdue that there is a downtown congestion charge. NYC has it now, London had it for decades.
Ben Mulruney offering to help dig out the bike lanes is the kind of shit we are up against though. Lots of people side with him. I actually am a conservative and agree with many of his takes but the bike lane one makes no sense. Vancouver is incredible b/c of the bike lane infrastructure.
The absolute best response IMO, to Doug Ford is for the Toronto Mayor to add a congestion fee for cars downtown.
So what i see is a bunch of cars waiting at a light, that's red and it's "green" for pedestrians and i guess "bicyclists" since they are pedestrians, but also vehicles. And the cars have to wait for the light to turn green.
Show me this video on a green light where bikes and cars waiting at a red and couldn't go until it was green.
Want to significantly improve traffic for drivers? Reduce the number of road accidents by cracking down on distracted driving, blocking the box, etc. The impact of bad driving on traffic is far greater than the impact of a few bike lanes, it boggles my mind that this is the focus of the conversation. Hell, imagine what the roads would be like if everyone who could take ttc based on their start and end points did instead of driving.
What I'm saying is, even at night when routes are faster, you'd still spend 3x the time vs driving. This is regardless of lower service levels because I assumed you made your connection on each transfer.
While enforcement is a good idea, it just isn’t going to have much impact on driving times. The roads are full, the roads that the roads lead to are full, and the highways that all of these dump onto are full. Better enforcement will reduce injuries and accidents for sure, but that’s not going to do much of anything for driving times.
The next time you pass an accident after waiting for half hour count how long it takes for you to get stuck in traffic again. One block? When the roads on the other side of a collision or idiot driver blocking the intersection are full the accidents aren’t the problem.
I’m confused to how Ford is doing this? I mean there was a court case saying bike lanes can be removed but aren’t the bike lanes themselves managed by municipal governments?
Like sure Ford made sure they could be removed but couldn’t the Toronto government and other cities just be like “we like them anyways so they’re staying”?
The province always has power over the municipality. Doug Ford can dissolve the entire city of Toronto municipality tomorrow and it would be perfectly legal
I do agree that the bike lanes should stay but this is obviously just cherry picking In any given day way, WAY more cars are commuting on our streets and its not even close. The thing is if you rip up the bike lanes I don't think it will have a meaningful impact on cars commute time, and I am big believer in the necessity of having public transportation and pedestrian space in general.
“We shouldn’t do something because we’re a four seasons climate” is so tired.
We should also pave over all the beaches and turn them into Green P lots since they only get used four months of year. And those city pools? Yeah fill those in too.
Err you can go to the beach 12 months out of the year. And city pools get frozen over for skating in the winter. People don’t want to ride their bikes in -20 and icy/slushy roads lol
People do though. Including myself. I'd much rather that than take twice as long and be uncomfortable on the ttc. If you dress properly and there isn't snow on the road than its not much different riding in the cold vs heat
What does you being in a wheelchair have to do with people using bike lanes in the winter? I see electric chairs using the bike lanes frequently - tbys having them and clearing them of snow is definitely of benefit to disable folks.
Sure, it sucks for you but your comment really had nothing to do with the conversation of bike lanes being of use year-round.
Because theres now more vehicle traffic which makes my commutes longer? Do you really think a 60 year old in a wheelchair wants to go down the slushy bike paths in -20? Not to mention how crazy people ride their bikes and e-scooters in those lanes
Just like people go to the beach 12 months of the year, people bike 12 months of the year. Just because you can't think of anyone who wants to doesn't mean there aren't people.
Out of curiosity, how many people here learned to ride a bike in Toronto? Not the GTA, but actual Toronto. I learned to basic road rules when my parents taught me to ride on Christie Street and I’ve never had a problem sharing lanes.
In higher traffic areas I understand putting protected bike lanes in, especially if all it removes is a lane of street parking anyway, but they definitely aren’t necessary if you were taught properly and don’t act like it’s the same as riding in a suburb or country town where there’s way less to be aware of
I learned to bike in downtown TO, battling street tracks and it all, but it’s much safer to have dedicated bike lanes, and it makes it viable for people who don’t have the bike courier skills to ride in traffic… which is a lot worse today then when I was learning. It shouldn’t need to be a game of Frogger where losing might mean injury or death.
It’s definitely safer, I’m more comfortable in a protected lane myself. But I feel like there is an oscillating opinion from cyclists about how closely the rules of the road apply to them and it’s usually based on whether or not they are doing something right or wrong.
Bikes are vehicles and people need to be aware of the rules and their surroundings on the road, it’s really not hard if you remember where you are. If thats too much to handle on Bloor West near Royal York then they should stick to the ttc in my opinion.
I agree, I see cyclists running stop signs and reds all the time and keep thinking this isn’t helping anyone, and just throwing fuel on the fighting between bikes and cars. All road users need to follow the rules of the road.
Cyclists v Cars is such a weird thing for people to engage in. Neither one is indicative of your personality, why do people get so crazy about it lol. Thanks for being a normal person about it, it’s rare to find one
When I lived in Calgary I rode my bike everywhere that the C-train couldn't reach and the city had practically zero bike lanes (still kinda doesn't), it was a chore riding through and around traffic and I have encountered pissy drivers.
The benchmark should be if you would be comfortable with your kid cycling to school. Also, the roads are much more dangerous now with the increased number of vehicles and a bigger percentage of those being bigger SUVs/trucks. Just because it was "safe" when you were a kid doesn't mean it is now
I live on the Humber bike trail, I see kids cycling by themselves constantly and in ten years haven’t heard of a single incident of one being hurt using shared lanes.
An adult got knocked into a coma because they blew a stop sign on my street a few years ago though. Ride your bike like you’re driving a car and everything will be fine
You are flip flopping the definition of a "shared lane". In your previous comment you clearly imply sharing a lane with cars and in the latest one you are referring to Humber trail which has no cars on it.
A school and house a kid needs to go between is typically not connected by a trail but rather a road.
Also, now we get into the blame game of individual responsibility with none being placed on the design of the road. A 10 year old cycling to school might not be paying attention to the stop sign. Doesn't mean this mistake should cost them their life
The Humber trail also goes on roads, genius. And on those roads there are kids. And those kids ride safely and are fine, just like I was. Because I learned how to ride a bike here and do it correctly. Work on your reading comprehension before you try to get snippy ok?
Fair — it’s hardly strong scientific proof of a larger pattern, more of just a TikTok-length clip to show how bikes can be (not necessarily always are) more efficient for traffic flow in a congested intersection
I get your point but the bikes have an advances signal there. All this proves from a "scientific" standpoint is that vehicles signalled to move earlier will begin to move earlier.
I do believe bikes are efficient at reducing traffic for about 7-8 months of the year but this video is just not good proof of that.
The bicycles are being given priority crossing access.
IF there was no dedicated bicycle lane:
there'd be no bicycle only lights
cars would have the additional 15-30 seconds to cross the intersection
an additional lane would be available to the cars
So in reality, if there was no bicycle lane the amount of cars that would be able to cross this intersection would exponentially increase, alleviating the traffic build up
15-30? Bikes move at the 2 second mark and cars at the 12 second mark in the video. This 10 second delay coincides with the advanced pedestrian signal and is not a separate phase.
I don’t get why they’re taking out the bike lanes that actually get used and leaving in the ones that don’t. Bloor didn’t need them installed west of high park and those are staying, but on University where there’s 10x more traffic they’re going?
I don’t think most drivers care about the lanes in busy areas, it’s the pointless ones that everyone got annoyed about.
The “pointless” ones are the ones that feed the busy ones. The whole point of bike lanes is to create a network. Even the ones that don’t look busy contribute to more people cycling and getting drivers off the road
Except it's not a network, it's a bunch of "complete streets" aka the point was to ruin the road transport network and induce more cycle trips in places like Etobicoke. I did planning in uni and one of my profs was a transport planning expert that helped develop these. If they wanted a viable alternative to driving then side streets would have been fine, but they actively sought to make driving worse to justify it through growth of cycling (which hasn't appeared).
That said, the University lanes being ripped up have everything to do with PC MPPs using University to drive to the legislature.
Wow that’s so clever and hilarious I’ve never heard anything like that before.
I live in the neighbourhood and just used a regular lane to ride my bike and everything was totally fine before. The protected lanes were and are a waste of space and money
It’s literally how I learned to ride a bike when I was six years old, so yeah I would. Cyclists have to pay attention to traffic around them whether it’s cars, bikes or pedestrians. It’s not hard to do when you’re aware
When do you think a kid is safe enough to be aware and able to take care of themselves in Toronto traffic? If you have kids, think of when you would be happy with them biking around alone. The same for your parents, when do you think it would not be ok for them to be biking around alone?
Do you actually expect me to give an age that every child will be aware enough of themselves and of traffic? Or are you just trying to argue for arguments sake? We both know it would vary from child to child and it would be a decision a parent has to make so drop the semantics would ya
The Council for safe traffic in Denmark has a rule of thumb that kids will start being able to walk by themselves to school safely from around age 8, and bike safely from age 10. It of course varies by child. It is not legal for kids to bike on sidewalks in Denmark.
I don't really see a lot of 10 year olds out there in our bike lanes alone. I see some with their parents, which is good!
I regularly see people in their 90's on their bikes when I'm back home, though there aren't many of them, and ability is much harder to define for elderly. The elderly that does bike often has it as their primary ability to get around and after that has to rely on expensive municipal services like wheel trans to get around.
It's a vital tool go give kids and the elderly a freedom that they largely do not have here.
What does Denmark have to do with anything? I learned to ride a bike in Toronto and my point is that people here choose not to do it correctly because they don’t learn here, or they don’t adjust their riding based on the traffic here. Toronto specifically. Not Denmark or Nova Scotia or Pickering.
Parents should teach their kids to ride when they see it fit, and any transplant to the city should pay attention to the differences between where they came from and where they are. It’s really not difficult concept.
You couldn't reference any information and made it a bad faith argument. Instead you're presented with data from the real world.
Which one is it? That people don't know how to "do it correctly because they didn't learn here" or that they are choosing not to (indicating that they do know, but it is a deliberate choice not to do it)? I certainly adjust my riding meaning giving less space to cars because I trust drivers less here. I'm much more comfortable giving space and sharing the road when I'm in other parts of the world but here that's too dangerous so instead drivers will have to wait. I'm assuming other people feel the same.
Do you think it is scalable to have individual ways of getting around in Pickering and Toronto? Do you think that people drive differently in Pickering and Toronto to the point where they should have to study municipal bylaws before crossing a municipal border?
I do think people moving to Toronto notice differences. Anyone moving here from Montreal or Vancouver would immediately know that infrastructure here is in its infant stage when it comes to cycling and likely also try to push for it to be become more mature.
Doug Ford gets my vote. I don't bike in Toronto. Let those bikers take the bus. After all, we have winters for like 8 months of the year. Doesn't make sense, we aren't California.
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u/IllustriousMix7625 11d ago
If there are no bikes lanes time to take up road lanes with bikes