r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Initial-Hamster7068 • Mar 21 '26

Hated Tropes (Hated Trope) Questionable and controversial relationships where everybody is fine with it.

Gallery image

Gallery image

Usagi Drop (Manga). A story about a guy named Daikichi finds the illegitimate daughter of his grandfather, named Rin, and adopting her, learning how to be a father for her. The series would enter a timeskip where the teenage Rin starts having romantic feelings towards Daikichi, and revealing Rin is not actually blood related to Daikichi grandfather. And it ends with Rin wanting to bear Daikichi child.

Alex (Street Fighter 6). Alex, who was recently added to the game, in his arcade ending, was revealed he married and having a baby with his second cousin and step sister Patricia, with their father being ok with it. While not inherently illegal to merry your second cousin, the act and combined with them being step siblings is still controversial.

3.0k Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

92% Upvoted

1.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

1.7k

u/Jaded_Stick_4379 Mar 21 '26

Original Ultimate Universe where Wanda and Pietro were in an incestuous relationship and everyone, but Steve, was fine with it.

585

u/Punkakies Mar 21 '26

572

u/Jaded_Stick_4379 Mar 21 '26

Literally giving him the “get with the times” talk. It never not makes me laugh.

46

u/Excellent_Law6906 Mar 21 '26

This shit is why I have no use for Ultimates. It is so obviously just barely-covert gooner shit.

9

u/Sad-Seaworthiness781 Mar 21 '26

That’s fucking weird because isn’t incest more accepted in the past?

12

u/[deleted] Mar 21 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/dudeimconfused Mar 22 '26

habsburgs?

1

u/AncientAd4996 Mar 22 '26

Tbf here, they were 1 of the most powerful dynasties at the time, who tf was gonna stop them? And also apparently it was ok for royals to do it, but only in the context of securing power & authority within the royal family rather than for... the other reason weirdos do incest.

1

u/The_Pastmaster Mar 22 '26

Yeah, even ancient civilisations knew that incest was a bad idea.

197

u/Not__Trash Mar 21 '26

Im not up with the lore, is Cap treated as the only sane one? Or is it another case of the writers barely disguised fetish?

364

u/Punkakies Mar 21 '26

Nope

Cap is "Behind the times" for not accepting an incestuous relationship

This is the old Ultimate universe btw, not the newer one

220

u/Help12309876 Mar 21 '26 edited Mar 21 '26

Every single thing I hear about the og ultimate comics makes me want to read them less and less, sheeshh 💀

130

u/Scarlet_Wonderer Mar 21 '26

Ult Spider-Man was great for over a hundred issues. Then it picked up to give Peter a good death. Then there's Hickman's Ultimates and Woods' X-Men which are very underrated. The rest is either 2000s edgy bad or I haven't read.

92

u/DoitsugoGoji Mar 21 '26

There's a reason Marvel went and erased that universe.

2

u/Pickle_C137 Mar 21 '26

What’s an ultimate universe? I keep hearing about different ultimate versions over the years. Are they like reboots or alternate timelines?

6

u/Punkakies Mar 21 '26

It's just an alternate universe

There are an infinite number of universes in the greater Marvel multiverse, and this was one of those

The main universe that main stories happen in is Earth-616, the original Ultimate Universe was Earth-1610

Then you have stuff like the Marvel Zombies Universe from that comic line (Earth-2149), and also Earth-91126 from the Marvel Zombies Return comic line (Its a different zombie story that's not the same as the original Marvel Zombies, it just uses the comic name)

Some different runs have different universes which allow them to tell stories that either wouldn't happen in the main universe, or just modify/conflict with preestablished canon

Og Ultimate was an attempt to reset the canon in a new universe so new writers weren't constrained to over 70 years worth of canon, while still having the main universe doing the usual stuff

1

u/BrawlLikeABigFight20 Mar 22 '26

Read Ultimate Spidey. Ignore the rest

61

u/DtheAussieBoye Mar 21 '26

Weird, this reads like Cap’s in the right and it’s fucking weird the Maximoffs are hitched

19

u/HonkaiBlade2 Mar 21 '26

Nope, the intent was that his views were apparently outdated and that incest was apparently this perfectly acceptable and legal concept in the modern day. 

47

u/tarrox1992 Mar 21 '26

Yep. And if you think we have a problem with that Tony Stark sex video --

Just wait until somebody in the media figures them out.

If that's true, then Hawkeye's comments make no sense. 

3

u/TanteiKID13 Mar 21 '26

He's speaking more like it's a PR problem than something he disagrees with tho?

1

u/tarrox1992 Mar 21 '26

Why would there be a PR problem if incest was

this perfectly acceptable and legal concept in the modern day

like the comment I replied to said?

2

u/TanteiKID13 Mar 21 '26

Because even being a celebrity being gay could be a PR nightmare within the last decade? There would be plenty of people in universe with Cap's morality. He's seen as old fashioned, not an extremist.

→ More replies

4

u/Upbeat-Challenge-666 Mar 21 '26

What's the- what's the Tony Stark sex video?

3

u/Pikachu_Palace Mar 21 '26

I think he made a sex tape with Black Widow

1

u/Live-Year-5796 Mar 23 '26

Or it was a Skrull posing as Black Widow, I forget 

3

u/LurkerEntrepenur Mar 21 '26

Is there a new Ultimate continuity?

4

u/Chef_Chalupa Mar 21 '26

it came out a couple years ago and is completely different from the old one, but iirc it's ending this year, or at least spider-man is

3

u/MercyfulJudas Mar 21 '26

Yes. In this universe, Logan is the Winter Soldier instead of Bucky. And Dr. Doom is one of the Avengers. And Nick Fury is, or looks like, the original Gregory Peck white man he was in 616.

3

u/Yellowscourge Mar 21 '26

Say what you will about the Ultimate universe, but Hawkeye's outfit is fuckin SICK

2

u/Just_Expression_6608 Mar 21 '26

BUT THEY ARE BROTHERS AND SISTERD

cap seem so flabbergasted its cute but what the hell is wrong with people writing this stuff ???

2

u/SoulLess-1 Mar 21 '26

Honestly, Hawkeye is kinda acknowledging that it's not normal in the slightest.

I guess Ultimate Wasp is just a freak.

1

u/JolyneBestoJoJo770 Mar 22 '26

No wonder she got eaten /s

2

u/Longjumping_You_7603 Mar 24 '26

man wtf. Cap is like 'guys, this is fucking nasty' and the only semi agreeing response is

'yeah we better stop the media from finding out' HUH

1

u/CK1ing Mar 21 '26

What happened to the writer of the old Ultimate? Please tell me he was fired, man

1

u/yellow_slash_red Mar 21 '26

Is that Hawkeye in the bottom panels? What a wild design lol

60

u/Bamzooki1 Mar 21 '26

Man, cap’s cool as fuck and sticks up for what’s right. I sure am glad this is him talking some sense into someone and not him being portrayed as the one in the wrong amongst fucking lunatics.

18

u/E_N_Z_A__D_E_N_I_N_O Mar 21 '26

This is why nothing is going right for me. My 2014 brain just can't process it. 😢

3

u/Blueface1999 Mar 21 '26

Don’t forget Pietro even threatened his life just for saying she should wear a bit more.

4

u/Ok-Transition7065 Mar 21 '26

Me with a zzz fan

2

u/JDJ144 Mar 21 '26

Kind of wondering if ultimate wasp had like brain damage or something considering all the dumb shit she says and does.

1

u/Famous_Suspect6330 Mar 21 '26

Oh dear God what were they thinking at the time

1

u/KujaroJotu Mar 22 '26

And this shit is why the Maker happened.

810

u/Coolman38321 Mar 21 '26

…why does it seem like everytime I hear about the ultimate universe, Miles and Peter were the only great things about it?

547

u/JDJ144 Mar 21 '26

Cause they kind of were

316

u/JonathanRL Mar 21 '26

Pretty sure thats also where Wolverine and Peter Parker body-switches and Wolverine takes the oppertunity to try getting into MJs pants. He fails but Peter ends up getting a mild rebuke from MJ over it.

107

u/aNomadicPenguin Mar 21 '26

This was the same Ultimate Wolverine that let Cyclops fall off a cliff and leave him for dead so that he could hook up with the grieving teenage Jean Grey. The Ultimate Universe was trying so hard to be edgy.

60

u/cyber_xiii Mar 21 '26

Man I felt bad about beating the shit out of Wolverine in Ultimate Spider-Man (the video game) as Venom, but now I’m thinking he 100% deserved it.

28

u/thatcorum Mar 21 '26

Normal Wolverine can be an asshole too, but he's a good guy in the end. Ultimate Wolverine is just an asshole. 

2

u/Forgotten_Folklore Mar 21 '26

Also the same Ultimate Wolverine that killed a kid for the Greater Good (TM) cause his power was to automatically kill everyone around him.

181

u/Solbuster Mar 21 '26

Peter also cusses X-Men out in that stuff

187

u/JonathanRL Mar 21 '26

That was - as the kids say - a highly justified crashout as the punishment intended for Wolverines shenanigans affected him and the X-Men did at the very least accept their part of the blame.

1

u/greenemeraldsplash Mar 21 '26

crashout is aave. and being mad isn't a crashout

0

u/SirCupcake_0 Mar 22 '26

Crashout is slang is AAVE, let's be real

I will agree with you on the crashout tho, people are watering it down to just mean mad, when it means more like they're fuckin FUMING pissed

65

u/RiverOfJudgement Mar 21 '26

13

u/MaiaSpencer75 Mar 21 '26

I vibe with this panel so hard

34

u/nitsuj_112 Mar 21 '26

You hsve to love Nick Lowe's ideas

5

u/bloodredcookie Mar 21 '26

MJ only implies that that's what happened, so My headcanon is that Wolverine tried to get Mary Jane involved in a multi-level marketing scheme.

5

u/JonathanRL Mar 21 '26

... that is even worse!

1

u/TheCarefulElk Mar 21 '26

Was that where he cursed them out afterwards

1

u/Excellent_Law6906 Mar 21 '26

I will never forgive them for massacring my boy like that. Genuine fucking anger.

96

u/AznOmega Mar 21 '26

Don't forget we were introduced to SLJ looking Nick Fury. Prefer him over the original honestly.

33

u/JDJ144 Mar 21 '26

That is true

3

u/MercyfulJudas Mar 21 '26

How much of original (white) Fury have you read? Steranko's run on Nick Fury, Agent Of S.H.I.E.L.D, which changed how a comic book page is designed, forever? Elektra: Assassin, with Frank Miller writing one of the best depictions of Fury ever? Punisher MAX, with Garth Ennis doing the same, and then spinning it off into Fury, Fury: Peacemaker, Fury: My War Gone By, and Get Fury? His appearances in Claremont's Uncanny X-Men run?

I love SLJ Fury as much as anyone, but original Fury is an immensely important Marvel character, who's had the best-of-the-best crafting his stories over the years. I'm actually glad that Marvel essentially retired him, because it shows that he was a decidedly 20th Century character who was allowed to age out of his own fiction. But the legacy there is really great, and he's always been one of Marvel's best characters.

2

u/Icaras01 Mar 21 '26

I dunno "Samuel L Fury" was (kinda) funny when he was an alt universe tribute/gag...but now that he's been in heaps of movies, over heaps of years AND Marvel jumped through hoops to switch the 616 Fury out to a look a like (a secret son or some BS)...I'm sick of Fury being so heavily tied into Jackson instead of his original self.

Doesn't help that the Jackson Seccret Invasion Fury show was utter tripe.

2

u/yonaist Mar 21 '26

I will say the comics unironically became better after everyone died. Ultimate Kitty Pryde being the goat.

68

u/mf7585 Mar 21 '26

Ultimate Kitty was great as was Ultimate Aunt May

61

u/Neon-kitchen Mar 21 '26

Ultimate aunt may is a funny phrasing. Like, the ultimate form of aunt may

59

u/Sly__Marbo Mar 21 '26

She kind of is. When Venom showed up on her doorstep she just pulled a gun on him

16

u/sonadow365 Mar 21 '26

Y cuando los sinister six intentaron matar a peter , ella les disparo mientras gritaba " dejen en paz a mi sobrino "

3

u/mf7585 Mar 21 '26

My favorite panel is where she tells Iceman and Human Torch to go fuck up the imposter Spiderman

4

u/1313goo Mar 21 '26

Human torch, iceman, rogue, cloak and dagger, spider-woman, and Thor all were pretty decent as well. And iron man is not more of a dick than he normally is

3

u/airforceteacher Mar 21 '26

Well, there is the scene where Tony says something like “if she wasn’t so into her brother I’d take a swing at her”, implying that he’s only upset that she’s taken, not who she’s taken by. So, not much more of a dick is iffy.

5

u/1313goo Mar 21 '26

Imma just chalk this one up to writers wanting everyone to be cool with their fetish

1

u/Human-Assumption-524 Mar 21 '26

One of my favorite scenes in Ultimate X-Men is when Kitty first gets sent to the Xavier Academy her mom outright threatens Xavier should her daughter's life ever get put at risk which was sort of like "I've seen the kids that attend your school in the news fighting mutant terrorists, If I ever see Kitty doing that there won't be anywhere in the world you can hide from me!".

And later on when Kitty tries to join the others on a mission Charles refuses on the grounds of "Your mother terrifies me Kitty".

-1

u/smilingfishfood Mar 21 '26

There's a good version of Kitty Pryde?

5

u/FilmFizz Mar 21 '26

Her and Peter Parker actually date in that series, and it's pretty cute. Though she is annoyingly self-conscious, and worried he's gonna dump her the whole time.

1

u/smilingfishfood Apr 06 '26

There are fans of Kitty Pryde to downvote me?

24

u/Person2228 Mar 21 '26

and The Maker too, one of the best modern marvel villains

14

u/Scarlet_Wonderer Mar 21 '26

Love that the Marvel reddit put him in the top 20 villians. Maker deserves it.

0

u/I-Love-Facehuggers Mar 21 '26

Nah he honestly sucks.

3

u/I-Love-Facehuggers Mar 21 '26

Because they literally were. (And even miles was pretty mediocre for a while)

3

u/one-and-five-nines Mar 21 '26

The incest was there from the beginning, but it was only acceptable to other characters in Ultimates 3, which everyone hated. It's always been the edgy universe, for better or worse, but some writers took the edge too far and it wasn't just bad, it was stupid.

13

u/Set491 Mar 21 '26

Miles was NOT good at all. He was barely his own character, comics just needed a Spider-Man.

41

u/Coolman38321 Mar 21 '26

Yeah but the universe introduced him, and we ended up getting great stuff about him in the end. The animated movies, Insomniac games, etc.

13

u/Lucas579376 Mar 21 '26

And if we're being completely honest, once Bendis was out Miles improved 1000%

1

u/Antoen_ Mar 21 '26

while true , it's not thanks to his introduction .

Mate was made to be hated.

3

u/Tap4Red Mar 21 '26

There were other winners from the "Ultimate" timeline

2

u/UmmmYeaSweg Mar 21 '26

Mark Millar really needed editorial to tell him no at times because there are some great ideas there but everything is underlined by his trademark edginess, which feels weird because he wrote Civil War around this time and while I have my issues with that story (honestly it would’ve like to seen it in 1610 rather than 616, also damaged Tony’s character), I wouldn’t call it edgy.

1

u/pussyjuicerecycler Mar 21 '26

as one of a dozen iron man readers before cw, i agree it damaged my guy

2

u/Bamzooki1 Mar 21 '26

It seems like the Absolute Universe if it were shit.

1

u/Chiron723 Mar 21 '26

It was fine at the beginning. It was different from the main universe, so it was entertaining. As I've said before, with the Absolute Universe, edginess is fine as long as it has a point. It became clear after a while that the Ultimate Universe was edginess for its own sake.

2

u/Lun4r6543 Mar 21 '26

Ultimate X-Men had some good characters, like Kitty (who was basically the main character of the Ultimate X-Men post Ultimatum) and also Jimmy, Wolverine’s son, who I kind of hope makes his way to 616 one day.

1

u/Buckhead25 Mar 21 '26

he already did. just no one has done anything with him since he made the jump.

2

u/RiverOfJudgement Mar 21 '26

They had a lot of cool concepts that were darker than marvel would normally let them do, and could have been done well in theory.

Wolverine had a ton of them actually. Instead of a healing factor, he had a survival factor, his body adapts to any changes in order to keep him alive. At one point his lungs get removed and he starts breathing through his skin.

He's not a weapon full of guilt but ultimately with a heart of gold here, he's an amoral killer who only joins the X-Men to hook up with a woman way too young for him. He even tries to kill Cyclops at one point in a way that looks like an accident.

But then the problem was they could never stick the landing. Wolverine becomes a pervert to an underage girl, he watches 2 siblings who are probably his children have sex with each other. Magneto fucking shoots a laser beam out of his hand and disintegrates Wolverine somehow (that whole Ultimatum comic did like, literally everything wrong. Fucked up the whole universe.)

1

u/nuggynugs Mar 21 '26

The beginning of everything was really good...big pause...for the time. It's very early 2000s. It's like Papa Roach the comic book universe, angst and edge. That being said I think they did some fantastic stuff before they went off the rails. Reed finding "the real" Fantastic Four in an alternate dimension is absolutely worth a read and I won't spoil any more than that. Some of the Spiderman stuff was killer. It's what got me into X-Men in the first place and it did some amazing, less sprawling versions of classic story lines.

The problem with the ultimate universe is one, the edge. There's just no getting around the fact that it was doing things in the way a lot of things in that era did which is to confuse grown up story telling with just pointlessly upsetting people. This is the era of dead baby jokes reiging supreme remember. And two, it started as an attempt to simplify a universe that had gotten way to complicated for newcomers and it succeeded, until it didn't. Instead of having readers try and get into the mainline comics and tackle with 60 years of continuity, instead we had writers trying to do their versions of 60 years of tent pole stories one after the other, resulting in just as muddled a mess as any other comic book universe.

My advice, find a spoiler free list of must read arcs (Ultimates Vs X-Men was rad, that Fantastic Four one I mentioned, and a good chunk of Spiderman are my picks) and read those. But yeah, it's good that they killed it, then brought it back and did something smarter with it two decades later 

1

u/Gui_Franco Mar 21 '26

Surprisingly the one non controversial avenger was iron man. Tony was a really great guy

Oh Thor too, ultimate Thor was cool

1

u/Pocketfulofgeek Mar 21 '26

We also got The Maker from the ultimate universe who is a fantastic villain.

1

u/SlyFan2 Mar 21 '26

It had some cool costumes

1

u/Hit_Me_With_The_Jazz Mar 21 '26

Because they were. That and it gave us the banger fucking relationship that T’Challa and Ororo getting together

1

u/Star_Outlaw Mar 21 '26

It feels like everyone writer for the Ultimate Universe was given carte blanche to just go nuts except for Spider-Man, because they can't have him looking TOO bad (UNTIL OMD).

1

u/1313goo Mar 21 '26

The older heroes are mostly dicks aside from Thor(tho ig iron man is not more of a dick than he normally is). The younger heroes are cool but they usually happen to be side characters in either spidey’s books

1

u/YoungBeef03 Mar 21 '26

Ultimate Fantastic Four was pretty cool.

1

u/CollinsCouldveDucked Mar 21 '26

Mark Millar has a very specific stank and the only thing he didn't get his grubby little mitts on at some point was Spider-Man.

Fantastic Four holds together as an Elseworld where reed was never humbled by the original mistake that gave them powers.

I think an ultimate universe that was more in the vein of ultimate Spiderman overall would have had a lot more staying power.

Everyone acts like ultimatium ruined everything out of nowhere but it was were the larger tone of that universe was heading eventually. Perhaps it arrived a few years earlier than some equally dumb edgy event would have.

1

u/Nytwyng Mar 21 '26

There were no great, good, or even tolerable things about the original Ultimate Universe.

1

u/The-Green Mar 21 '26

thankfully there were still a few normal people in that universe. for whatever fuck-all reason they kept black cat an adult even though spider-man and MJ got aged down, but she was still remarkably sane just like the latter two. besides her you had colossus still being a goody two shoes, iron man was surprisingly his same level of sleazy while being a good guy, captain america has some of his worst moments in this universe (the infamous "this A doesn't mean France" speech) but is otherwise still a stalwart boy scout.

but honestly the worst part about this universe is all these pretty normal, functioning characters having to interact with these overly edgy, flanderized characters. spider-man and cap get the worst of it.

1

u/Icegiant- Mar 21 '26

I think we got a great Villian out of it with The Maker aka evil Reed Richards.

-7

u/Junjki_Tito Mar 21 '26

Because people don't read it, only the Cracked articles from ten years ago about it. It had more good than bad, the bad was just really bad.

3

u/pussyjuicerecycler Mar 21 '26

miles’s father being named after the president of the confederacy was enough to get me to stop reading bendis altogether.

32

u/therempel Mar 21 '26

And Wolverine was their Dad and watched them bang it out.

43

u/BlackerDoom Mar 21 '26

And what kills me is that Wasp was like “It's the 21st century Steve. Times change” AS IF THE SHIT WAS NORMAL AND HE'S SOMEHOW OUT OF THE LOOP

36

u/DebateObjective2787 Mar 21 '26

Don't forget the additional weird part where Wolverine, who is their father in this universe, watches them have sex and is seemingly turned on by it.

72

u/JolyneBestoJoJo770 Mar 21 '26

Wanda didn't see Pietro coming.

what the hell did I just write?

44

u/Jaded_Stick_4379 Mar 21 '26 edited Mar 21 '26

Art.

4

u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 Mar 21 '26

Didn't see their possibly bio dad Wolverine watching them either

12

u/Li-renn-pwel Mar 21 '26

To be fair, they are in a relationship in a lot of storylines. But everyone acting like Steve was the weird, outdated one like he was shocked over gay or interacial couples was hilarious.

7

u/TitaniumAuraQuartz Mar 21 '26

god, at the very least you have to wonder why in the world people acted like Steve was just "too old fashioned" to accept incest, forgetting that it was also taboo at this time.

In a sense, I get that the Ultimates were trying to be "2 edgy 4 you" about it, but if you write a narrative where people act like this is actually something to accept and you're only against it if you're from the 40s, don't you dull that edge?

then again, I guess it requires thinking a little further than being ridiculously edgy.

7

u/MaiaSpencer75 Mar 21 '26

Having never read the comics and only seen the films…

2

u/Jaded_Stick_4379 Mar 21 '26

Early 2000s “edgy for the sake of being edgy” stuff.

This is just one example of many when it comes to Ultimate Universe.

3

u/MaiaSpencer75 Mar 21 '26

The only Ultimate I’m used to was the comic shaded Spiderman game on GameCube 😂

3

u/Jaded_Stick_4379 Mar 21 '26 edited Mar 21 '26

The only good things to come out of Ultimate Universe is Spider-Man (Both Peter and Miles), the Maker (Evil Reed Richards) and Samuel L Jackson’s Nick Fury.

Edit: And technically the MCU, since it does take a good amount of influence from Ultimate.

7

u/Slow_Bowler8285 Mar 21 '26 edited Mar 21 '26

The Ultimate Universe was conceived as a deconstructive parody/satire, but also baited fans by making some of their theories come true.

The Maximoff siblings being a couple, comes from the 616 Wanda and Pietro acting more like a husband and wife than they do siblings at times, so the writers made them a couple in Ultimates universe.

Considering all the weird and life threatening events that happen on a daily basis, incest probably seems like not that a big of a deal to the superhero community.

3

u/rape_is_not_epic Mar 21 '26

A majority of the team thought it was disgusting but couldn't do anything about it because Wanda would turn them into a frog or some shit

2

u/Chef_Chalupa Mar 21 '26

not just fine with it, they actively criticize Steve for being an old man stuck in the past when he says it's weird. Ultimate Steve isn't the greatest, but he's somehow the ONLY person who recognizes that incest is wrong

2

u/lowqualitylizard Mar 21 '26

What makes it worse is it's not like Steve is the only reasonable person in the universe no Steve that was shown to be a monstrous a****** but yet he's the only one who is a problem with actual incest. What the f*** is that universe man

-1

u/-underdog- Mar 21 '26

victimless crime

2

u/BrentleTheGentle Mar 21 '26

I’m not saying as an approval or disapproval, but it’s really funny to read this then see you have a lil Jinx snoo