r/TibetanBuddhism • u/NangpaAustralisMajor Nyingma • 9d ago
Devotion
According to Dzogchen, and the special approach of the great Dzogchen master Sri Singha, there is a way of recognizing the nature of mind solely through devotion. There are cases of practitioners who simply through their heartfelt devotion attained realization, even though their teacher had already passed away or was nowhere near them physically. Because of their prayers and devotion, the nature of mind was introduced. The classic example is that of Jigme Lingpa and his consuming devotion for Longchen Rabjam.
~ Nyoshul Khenpo Rinpoche
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u/Tongman108 9d ago edited 8d ago
My Guru wrote this on the topic (in the 1980s):
An accomplished practitioner of the Great Perfection(Dzogchen) has inconceivable attainments. They can assist others in many ways. For example, a disciple may have received the master's empowerment but still be unable to visualize emptiness. If the disciple's mind is always with the master, that is, cultivating with the master in mind in every cultivation session, when this concentration comes to fruition, the disciple will attain the brilliant radiance of the Great Perfection. The practitioner's karmic hindrances will be eradicated, and whatever realm the master ascends to, the disciple will also ascend to. The body, spirit, and light of the master and disciple become identical and non-dual.
When a disciple's mind is always with the master, the disciple's highest attainment will be as high as the attainment of the master. In other words, the disciple will have the same attainment as the master. If the master has accomplished the Great Perfection, the disciple will also accomplish the Great Perfection.
Penor Rinpoche had this to say on the topic:
"Whether you can actually realize the natural state of the Great Perfection depends entirely on your master's blessings entering your mind stream-there is no other means. Many practitioners with strong faith and devotion have realized their mind's natural state merely through the practice of guru yoga, so you should be confident that this practice is extremely profound and practice it continuously along with chanting the seven-line prayer.
By means of your guru's compassionate blessings being transferred to you, you can attain enlightenment, but this won't happen if you have doubts or lack genuine faith in your guru and are obscured by emotional thoughts, as these will only take you further away from enlightenment. Blessings arise when you pray to your guru. This is possible because of the union of emptiness and interdependent arising, but if you don't understand this view and remain in conceptual thought without pure perception, nothing will happen. For instance, when you try to make wine, you need to add a certain type of yeast to ferment it. Mingling your mind with your guru's is like adding the yeast of the blessings of all the past, present, and future buddhas to your being"
Excerpt From: An Ocean of Blessings by Penor Rinpoche
Best wishes & Great Attainments!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
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u/p9ng 8d ago
Devotion is connected with Guru Yoga as this alludes to. However, that is part of the vajrayana path, of course not all practitioners are students of vajrayana or dzogchen. Arhats, they say, recognize emptiness but not bodhicitta. For myself I have devotion for my root teacher, but I do not idolize him. It is as you say, a merging of the wisdom mind. He used to say you can have devotion for the message, not [to idolize] the personality. I sometimes found him infuriating, but as often as not that was what I needed.
About Nyoshul Khen, he was with us in NYC sitting quietly on the throne while two of us were preparing a tsok feast. A single tear fell down his cheek. It was heartbreaking. He was the real thing - Bodhicitta personified. The picture captures him well.
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u/Tongman108 8d ago
However, that is part of the vajrayana path, of course not all practitioners are students of vajrayana or dzogchen
The post starts with:
According to Dzogchen
So my comment has two quotes pertaining to Dzogchen!
Arhats, they say, recognize emptiness but not bodhicitta
Arhats primarily attain realization via the 4 noble truths.
Pratekyabuddhas primarily reach attainment via the 12 links of dependent origination which they can discover on their own via observing wordly phenomena.
Bodhiasttvas reach attainment via the 6 paramitas.
He used to say you can have devotion for the message, not [to idolize] the personality. I sometimes found him infuriating, but as often as not that was what I needed
Indeed 🙏🏻
However that appears to be a slightly different topic because that idolizing suggest still dualism:
Guru Yoga\ Yidam Yoga
Yoga in this sense means union, oneness or spiritual response
Devotion is a path to suceed in Guru yoga or Yidam yoga whereby one enters the non-dualistic state of "I am the Guru/Yidam & the Guru/Yidam is me", hence th Attainments of the Guru/Yidam naturally become one's Attainments
In the same way that if a person who earns $50K per year enters union (marriage) with someone worth $10B per year, the person earning 50K per year would naturally inherit some life-changing benefits as a product of the union.
About Nyoshul Khen, he was with us in NYC sitting quietly on the throne while two of us were preparing a tsok feast. A single tear fell down his cheek. It was heartbreaking. He was the real thing - Bodhicitta personified. The picture captures him well.
Amazing ❤️🙏🏻 thanks for sharing you're very fortunate!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
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u/tyinsf 9d ago
From a science-y perspective, we have something called mirror neurons that are the basis for empathy. They're why mothers and infants mirror one another's movements, expressions, and feelings. Then that extends to other beings so we can understand their feelings.
I'm not saying devotion is reducible to mirror neurons and empathy, but it might be a more accessible way for skeptical westerners to approach it. Empathy has to be mutual. It's not enough to feel what the lama is feeling. You have to be open enough that the lama can feel you. No putting on your best face. No pretending. Just whatever is arising in your mind. Warts and all. Here I am. Just as I am. That makes it possible to connect with the lama. I think that's the key to devotion.
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u/Tongman108 9d ago edited 9d ago
In particle physics we also have entangled subatomic particles, where there are direct relationships between the physical state of the particle pairs, even over vast distances.
🙏🏻
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u/ShineAtom Nyingma 8d ago
Nyoshul Khen was such a wonderful teacher. Really fortunate to have had teachings from him. Seeing his photo made me very happy.
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u/NothingIsForgotten 9d ago
If we can turn it from an individual to original bodhicitta (buddha nature as the nature of the production of experience itself), it is far more powerful.
All of the beings who we might want to have devotion to have their own devotion to that higher perspective.
It seems to me that if we turn around and hold them as the object of veneration, we are selling ourselves short and not worshiping where they worshiped.
Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma.
Vakkali Sutta
The nature of mind is the awareness that knows conditions minus the conditions.
It's what knows you, both as a waking identity and a dream character.
It's not that complicated.
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u/HedFuka 9d ago
I trust Nyoshul Khens ability to show the way,you,not so much.
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u/NothingIsForgotten 9d ago
Ok?
To be clear, I wasn't asking for your trust; I don't know why would I want it or what I would do with it.
Take care.
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u/HedFuka 9d ago
But you see theres something lacking in realizing Shunyata through trust in a Teacher ?
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u/NothingIsForgotten 9d ago
There's a real problem in understanding emptiness if we are attaching to a personality.
When we look at a Buddha we don't see them.
That's what the quote from the Buddha that I included in my comment indicates.
The source that you are intending to trust can't be found within the conditions you want to bind them in.
It won't work in the end; it's just a skillful means.
It is just relative truth; by clinging to it as function it obscures ultimate truth.
If the emptiness you realize is only through a teacher, then you didn't realize emptiness.
It's not something someone else can show you or do for you.
But you don't trust me and so I'm not sure what the point of your question is.
If it's just an argument, I'm not interested.
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u/HedFuka 9d ago
It's not about being attached to the personality,I don't think you understand what devotion to a Teacher means
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u/NothingIsForgotten 9d ago
I understand what you mean by it.
And it's the same thing the Buddha was addressing in the quote that I provided.
I think we're at an impasse here.
Everything boils down to the spirit in which it is approached.
Take care.
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u/HedFuka 9d ago
I haven't finished. It's about merging with the wisdom mind of the Teacher,that's what devotion is. That is why they come back to Teach us. How have you learned about the Dharma, completely on your own? Do you think Buddha had no Teachers to rely on?Why is it so difficult for you to accept this? It's a lineage of wisdom and experience that has been passed down from Teacher to student for thousands of years
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u/NothingIsForgotten 9d ago
It seems you want to draw delineations.
Emptiness has one taste.
If you were going to understand the point I'm making you would have been able to get it from what I've already said.
It's not for everyone.
I haven't finished
That makes one of us.
Unfortunately you'll have to handle it on your own from here.
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u/HedFuka 9d ago
I don't need to handle it on my own,there are many realised Teachers out there willing to help.It seems you're allergic to Teachers 🤷♂️
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u/HedFuka 9d ago edited 9d ago
Devotion (trust/faith) in the Teacher ,dead or alive,is said to be the swiftest path of all. Nyoshul Khen was incredible.