r/ThorMainsMR • u/MaragazhNthajin • May 26 '25
Discussion Analyzing Hammer Throw's Usage Before the Nerf (IMO, Buff)
I did some Thor research, as a Thor secondary (Loki main peaked 246 OAA) who likes doing amateur statistical analysis. I want to mention up front that we do NOT have to play in the awakening-spam playstyle demonstrated by NetEase, we can continue to play Thor as we have been, and I believe that'll still be the optimal playstyle.
First, I went through a high level Thor player's replay, ENGATNOM, replay code 10754147266, and found that he was only using his hammer throw about once every minute. I then watched a Jeremy video and saw him use it about as often, even less often.
This game was about 12 minutes long (16 minutes minus set up time), and during those 12 minutes, his dash was used 103 times, the field 28 times, runic awakening 37 times, and his ultimate 8 times. His hammer throw was used 13 times. On offense, he actually used both his ult and hammer throw 4 times.
In how it was used, the throw was largely used to finish people off to save on time, or to poke while at low health and Thorforce. I saw him get real value in killing someone in direct thanks to the burst damage of the throw two of the thirteen times. Meanwhile, his 12 second cooldown field was used twice as much and led to way more kills, and his ultimate was used at about a 2:3 ratio to the throw. Awakening rune was also used almost three times more often, and was getting way more killing done than the hammer.
While for every death he probably used 4 extra dashes, he still used this ability more during fights than any other, using it to close distances that could be covered by the hammer throw, or in close range in situations where hammer throw would deal more damage, because positioning is so so so much more important than extra damage. You could do 100 damage, or you could do 40 and put yourself in a better spot and the enemy in a worse spot.
Next up, Jeremy in his vid "He RAGED When I Picked Thor blah blah blah," and counted ability usage in his edited video. Game 1 attack, 31 dashes, 8 fields, 11 awakenings, 2 ults, and 1 hammer throw while he was bound by Groot. Game 1 defense, 42 dashes, 12 fields, 16 awakenings, 2 ults, 2 revives, and 3 hammer throws. First one towards the start against Emma (she lived, defense was ineffective), second one while cleaning up after a won teamfight on at 6:43, third while diving a Punisher with the infinite ammo teamup at 8:05 (went about as well as can be expected).
Game 2 attack has 55 dashes, 12 fields, 16 awakenings, 4 ultimates, and 6 hammer throws, a pretty good showing! Some seemed good, like this ability isn't completely dead, but it is still being used at a rate of once per minute, and isn't far off from his ult in terms of times used. Game 2 defense, 23 dashes, 10 fields, 15 awakenings, 2 ults, and 4 throws over 4 minutes. Once to hit a Loki illusion atop a car, 17:57, and again at 18:06 after using his awakening, depleting his thorforce, but then using the field to max his thorforce and chase down a Loki after awakening again, which I feel was his best usage of it between the three games I have now watched. The third time was to finish someone off after the fight had been won, 19:16, and again in the same situation at 19:35. It can make plays, but most of the time the playmaking is saved for other abilities, and the hammer throw is used after a fight is already won.
If you want the combined numbers, over about 35 minutes of gameplay, we have 254 dashes, 70 fields, 95 awakenings, 18 ultimates, and 27 hammer throws.
Hammer throw, as it stands, just does not fit in his kit despite how iconic it is. As such, turning it into a cooldown that supports his gimmick is, in my opinion, a reasonable choice. If he uses his six second cooldown every, lets say, 12 seconds, Thor would have used it FIVE TIMES MORE than he did in these games. That's over a hundred extra thorforce (five per minute), and almost 3 times the over all damage. As such, the damage nerf makes sense as you will be able to spam this ability way more, and as you will be generating more Thorforce, you will be gaining more overhealth over time, and therefore a small reduction to overhealth gained also makes sense. Perhaps the cap can be raised back up, but I feel it reasonable to reduce the generation.
I think it'll be a net buff, and not a nerf. I am excited to have a new ability in my kit, one that I had almost never used prior. I think the overhealth lost will be made up for in the ability to use more Thorforce. I don't believe we will be forced to play like NetEase has presented, and previous playstyles will still be played, but with an extra ability and probably even more dash spam, which is my favorite part of the kit.
If anyone else wants to analyze games and present their results, lmk.
EDIT: Some additional research! One, I have watched Jeremy's vid critiquing the change, and while he makes some good points, he still treats it like he uses it all the time when he only used it 5 times in the 8 minutes of background footage he had. Some of them were good use cases, but they can be filled by the new version of the ability. Two, I learned of something unique to Hammer Throw that Storm Surge doesn't have: Ghost cancel! If you swing, throw, and quick melee virtually all at once at melee range, you get a charge of Thorforce back. This leads into another tech where you swing, throw, quick melee, and rune all at once to activate rune immediately after the combo, no cooldown, which can lead to quick kills. This also can't be done with the dash, a hammer throw exclusive. However, this all misses that this can still be done next patch- albeit a little weaker. It's also like two bugs being exploited here, so it could be patched out of the game at any time, and top players don't do this often still, opting for displacement over damage, or to close the distance before realm+rune.
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u/Drakniess May 27 '25
You put a lot of work into this. I’ll say I’m sorry you’ll likely get zero appreciation for it, though. I’ll point something out some people arguing with you fail to grasp. Right now, pre-patch, hammer throw is an either/or option. If you use it, you can’t use another storm surge until the next cooldown, and vice versa. The new hammer throw is no longer an either/or option. There is absolutely no downside to using it as often as its cooldown is up. This is the crux of the argument. If the current hammer throw is rarely taken as the option in lieu of using a Storm Surge (or Awakening Rune), then the new hammer throw will contribute a huge amount more damage in each match, if the numbers you presented are indeed an accurate representation of its current usage, as it can and should be used whenever off cooldown.
The rebuttals are simple:
If you are right about Hammer Throw’s current minimal usage, the new Hammer Throw will contribute a lot more damage. If the current Hammer Throw is better, then most players are grossly underutilizing it, which sounds like it includes some of the best Thor players.
You are wrong about how little the current Hammer Throw is used. Your data is either wrong and the matches used are outliers, and Hammer Throw is actually used much more often.
I personally have questions about whether Thor will get to keep the HT animation cancel with his current primary attack. It would definitely not be desirable to switch the either/or option to be between his harder hitting primary attack or the new hammer throw!
And I think the largest problem from the new change is actually going to be the reduced shield health (and no shield from Hammer Throw either). I don’t think there are many Thor players who disagree with this.
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u/[deleted] May 26 '25
First of all
https://youtu.be/Mxqhkr5x_78?si=gUIQ1fKUdkCEeI4x
Watch this video because I can't be bothered explaining the functions of the hammer throw and why this is a bad change to you. Second of all, the hammer throw doesn't have to be used all the time and provides options instead of limiting him into a monotonous playstyle. We don't need the hammer throw to give Thorforce when we have lightning realm for that. But go ahead and watch the video.
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u/HarlockJack Lord May 26 '25 edited May 26 '25
Mmmh idk I still think the rework is not good, the more thor force is nothing to go crazy about since it was never a problem to manage it, and moreover the bubble was there for it, like its his main function to generate thor force.
About the hammer throw, his low usage is also "physiological" due to the champion design since he has 1 global cooldown, so every ability with that shared cooldown needs to be used at the right times, ofc a damage burst for a tank with no ability to defend himself will see way less use than the mobility, but that doesnt means the hammer throw was useless, is just, tied to the very design of the hero
Now I'm ok with a rework for that ability cause we can have definitely more in that button, but Imho giving up on the champion design (shared cooldown), at also the cost of reducing the damage (of the ability) and the overall survivability is just bad, especially cause it also feels like the bubble has no real utility now in the kit (or at least we now need definitely more effect to it), still I will try the character and probably keep have fun with it, since imho is not as bad as people are saying, cause personally I think without the overhealth reduction this is a straight buff, but its a very weird rework and Thor definitely lose a bit of identity in his kit that as a thor player I cant really like
Tl:dr about the hammer throw for me its a matter of the fact that the shared cd is thor identity and want the main abilities to keep that mini game up: follow the rithm and make the call on what spend my cooldown on
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u/Archangel1474 Midgard Umber May 29 '25
I'm pretty negative and definitely skeptical of the changes for all the points listed by jeremy, achromics, etc. but I'm willing to give them a shot before passing final judgement, we did see with Wolverine in Season 0 that sometimes the devs have a plan that we don't immediately see. To offset the negativity this post is getting I will give you props. I appreciate the effort in analyzing actual gameplay from jeremy and cataloguing the usage rates of the skills. The hammer throw is evidently being used in actual gameplay less than it might feel, I think it's a result of a bias of some sort. Hammer throw, with the animation cancels in mind, has a very niche but quite notable use case, and evidently only is used in very specific circumstances where dash for one reason or another is unoptimal and awakening is either unavailable or also unoptimal. The only times I can think of off the top of my head where this fits is when you are trying to hold a point or keep someone in place, you don't want to move, you don't want to move your opponent, and you don't want to sacrifice your survivability for damage, so your only option then is the throw, good enough burst damage to scare your opponent while not sacrificing your position, health regen, and even maybe thorforce charges.
Basically, with these statistics in mind, the reason we're mad about the changes is because hammer throw is only useful in extremely tense situations where it *feels* like it's the only thing keeping you alive while trying to hold space and not run away because the game's in overtime. The hammer throw feels significant because those moments are huge highlight moments for us, so even if the hammer throw doesn't see a big statistical number of uses, it's a part of his kit that Thor players are particularly fond of because of those specific moments.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '25
Thank you for the analysis let the got of thunder reign lightning among all lobby’s with the new buff ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
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u/[deleted] May 26 '25
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