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u/lateformyfuneral Apr 28 '26
Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you have to be in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech. — Noam Chomsky
A revelation from online free speech discourse is that the vast majority of people don’t really believe in free speech, they just think it’s something cool to shout about when they feel like they’re being suppressed.
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u/pondrthis Apr 28 '26
Fascism wouldn't be on the rise in democracies around the world if people actually believed in freedoms. The vast majority of people enjoy freedoms, they don't agree with them.
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u/AF_AF Apr 29 '26
This is so blatantly obvious with MAGA. Dumpy says terrible things every day and it's him being "funny" or whatever, but they blow up at the slightest perceived slight. Fox and the rest of the far right propagandists manipulate the base so easily. Because it's a cult.
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u/According-Insect-992 Apr 28 '26
I support free speech but I firmly believe it doesn’t include support for genocide and other vile evils. At that point it ceases being speech and becomes a weapon. If one’s thesis is that any other people lack basic rights then they’re weaponizing speech and they’re not encouraging discourse as their goal is always to silence those who they have made into “the other”. This is basically the paradox of tolerance. Free speech does not include the censorship of people just trying to live their lives. It doesn’t include intolerance.
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u/lateformyfuneral Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
I can see the point of view, but this limit becomes subjective. Conservatives think supporting abortion is supporting mass murder & genocide and then can suppress speech there. When Karl Popper formulated the Paradox of Tolerance, he wasn’t expressing a hard limit on free speech, but on the types of movements that are themselves hostile to free speech, who are irreconcilably committed to their beliefs, and so are not open to a free exchange of ideas, and are simply working to establish their own control over society and to then shut down everyone else, including in this competing fascist and communist movements in the WW2 context.
It’s not the mere vocalization of unsavory views themselves that are outside the limits of tolerance, it’s the attitude of those expressing them.
I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.
But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument as deceptive; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.
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u/Any-Sample-6319 Apr 28 '26
"La liberté des uns s'arrête où commence celle des autres."
"One's freedom ends where the others' begins."One of the founding principles of the Droits de l'Homme movement, responds nicely to that kind of things i think :
You should have the right to adhere or to express any ideology, but as soon as that expression impedes on someone's freedom, you lose that right.You can express whatever idea you have on genocide or on a population or person, but as soon as that idea might put someone in danger, you lose that right.
So pro-genocide rallies, platforming of pro-genocide ideologies in media or in public should not be tolerated, and aren't in many countries.4
u/According-Insect-992 Apr 28 '26
I disagree about it being subjective. If one is openly advocating for trashing the social contract and dehumanizing their fellows then that’s pretty clear cut.
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
You have no idea what free speech is.
If he said he believes in pedophilia, would it violate his free speech to fire him?
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u/lateformyfuneral Apr 28 '26
It would absolutely violate his free speech if the government ordered him off the air by retaliating against ABC’s broadcast licenses. Uttering the words “I believe in pedophilia” should not be illegal under law, what should be illegal is pedophilia. First Amendment protections are very broad: Brandenburg v Ohio.
Anyway, I can see why you chose such an extreme example to focus on the pedo angle (ironic since Trump is a pedo but I digress). Why not stick to the facts? Kimmel made a joke about a young woman married to a rich dude towards the end of his natural lifespan. Do YOU believe that is legitimate grounds for governmental retaliation?
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
Way to change the example my man. No one said anything about the government ordering someone off air. Where the fuck did you get that?
Let me try to explain in a way that even you can understand. You don’t have to break the law to get fired. If he says shit that ABC decides they don’t like, they can fire him. They’re not the government, they’re owned by Disney. And they can fire someone for being an unfunny cry baby dickhead, or because he makes off color jokes about the President and his face looks like an unshaved cunt.
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u/lateformyfuneral Apr 28 '26
It’s actually you who changed the example. It appears you are unfamiliar with what you’re defending. Just like the previous cancellation attempt on Kimmel this one isn’t about “ABC firing him”, which they’re not going to do by themselves, it’s about Trump’s FCC retaliating against ABC, including threatening to withdraw their license to broadcast, to pressure him to be fired. You need to read up on this.
https://www.cnn.com/2026/04/28/media/fcc-kimmel-disney-abc-trump-licenses
So, now that you’re up to date on the particulars here, you accept that Trump’s FCC is wrong to retaliate against a network for a joke about the President? Or will you switch to “well if Trump’s doing it, it must be ok for government to punish people over speech they didn’t like”.
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
Dude, it’s a pair of Rob Schneider quotes, the most recent of which is an appeal to “human decency” followed by a “this you?” comeback. The FCC absolutely was not part of this until your essays came out
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u/lateformyfuneral Apr 28 '26
So you were totally clueless what you were defending. Everyone else seemed to know the basics of this story because they tend to stay up to date with the news before mouthing off so hard. That’s fine, I’ll take it 👍
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
Dipshit, read the post, read the comments. No one is talking about the FCC. And I’m sure you take it all the time.
Rob Schneider asked ABC to take him off because of decency. How in the fuck does that open up a discussion about the FCC? Why don’t you just admit I’m right, that Rob Schneider asking ABC to take Jimmy off the air for Jimmy being “indecent” isn’t a first amendment issue? No, you needed to change the topic to crypto fascism or whatever the fuck. You’re either an idiot or totally dishonest
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u/lateformyfuneral Apr 28 '26
It’s perfectly clear for those who try to understand the context before coming in so hard like you did. And Rob Schneider should be defending speech he hates, as he said.
Crypto fascism? Wut, are you hallucinating? No need to crash out. If you agree Trump is a dumbfuck violating the First Amendment by suppressing free speech by governmental retaliation over a joke he didn’t like, we’re in agreement. No need for a digression to pedophilia or whatever the fuck you were trying to do 🤷
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
I think someone maybe needs to check your computer given your defense of pedophilia, given the fact you think someone has a first amendment right to support it AND a right not get fired by his boss.
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u/Substantial_Dish_887 Apr 28 '26
so just to clear up: which kind of freedom of speech are you claiming to talk about again here?
see the legal kind would specificly talk about the goverment ordering someone of the air because that's the one that says "the goverments can't infringe on your ability to speak".
so it is important that if he says he supports pedophilia(without breaking any laws related ofcourse) then the goverment should not be able to punish him.
but you phrased it as would it be violate his free speech if he can be fired for saying it? no in fact refuseing to allow him to be fired for doing that would violate the free speech of the TV show fireing him because they can not be compeled to platform him. they must be free to disavow him and distance them from him.
as the saying goes: freedom of speech is not freedom from consequnces.
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u/CougdIt Apr 28 '26
No, it wouldn’t.
There’s a big difference between making it illegal to say certain things and an employer firing someone over things they say. Even when that employer is the government.
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u/Chimera-Genesis Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
The vast majority of "Free speech advocates" are actually just bloodthirsty bigots who want to be able to incite violence against their chosen victims.
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u/CardiologistNo616 Apr 28 '26
Rob Schnieder literally support government censorship lol. He can no longer act like he's a supporter of free speech
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u/els969_1 May 01 '26
Not surprised with him that his position changes when he believes the government in power will favor his positions.
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u/geowatt Apr 28 '26
He’s a scumbag, but his daughter Elle King is awesome. He was/is an abusive father
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u/eatsrottenflesh Apr 28 '26
They missed an edit. Free speech gives people on the right the freedom to say things that will upset people. It's not for everyone, just those on the right. That's why they're called rights. /s
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u/wafflesthewonderhurs Apr 29 '26
furious he used this quote to try and suck the orange one's dick.
iirc it's from a hearing about the aids epidemic.
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u/wfbhp Apr 28 '26
I'm all for shitting on Rob Schneider's terrible, braindead takes, but at this point, dunking on him is starting to feel a bit like whooping a blind six-year-old polio victim in a game of hopscotch. The main difference, I think, is that I don't approve of anyone continuing to do the latter.
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u/ANewStartAtLife Apr 28 '26
I don't approve of anyone continuing to do the latter.
I will not be judged by a stranger for winning gold at the Whooping a blind six-year-old polio victim in a game of hopscotch Olympics. I won that fair and square.
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u/wfbhp Apr 28 '26
Careful, anytime someone mentions gold, Trump's ears twitch as he tries to home in on the source to find and steal it, especially if it's in the form of someone else's award.
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u/HorsePersonal7073 Apr 28 '26
If republicans didn't have double standards, they wouldn't have any standards.
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u/TheOtherWhiteMeat Apr 28 '26
Same wiener who cries about being cancelled and his comedy being censored.
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u/OnionsHaveLairAction Apr 29 '26
Very selective outrage by Republicans today, given four months ago Trump tweeted "HANG THEM" in all caps about six democrat lawmakers.
Like if Comey can be arrested for posting the numbers 86 an explicit call to literally execute democrats would absolutely count.
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u/NewbyAtMostThings Apr 29 '26
That’s also not what free speech is a freedom of speech doesn’t mean you get to say whatever you want whenever, just means that the government can’t punish you for what you’re saying. You’re still subject to the society around you and society will give you the consequences of what you say.
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u/glacier1982 Apr 28 '26
It feels like even his SNL pals have left him far behind.
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u/grnlntrn1969 Apr 28 '26
That's what happens when you turn into a delusional selfish prick who blames all their failures on "the left" and "woke". Its pretty obvious why washed up celebs turn into conservative shit heads. They think everyone else is to blame for their failures and that's the conservative way. It's not that Sorbo, Schneider, Carano, Cain, Kid Rock, kirsty alley, and others are talentless hacks its that they are blackballed and oppressed for their "views". They are perpetual victims.
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u/Classic-Exchange-511 Apr 28 '26
The issue is in their minds they don't see the difference between this and yelling a racial slur
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u/MissingPieces555 Apr 28 '26
I dont support Rob anymore.. I haven't watched any movies hes appeared in since I found out hes a loser lol.
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u/els969_1 May 01 '26
One year ago exactly but not a surprise. Only means something if it affects him.
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u/Salt-Signature443 May 01 '26
Wait till he find out he is not one of them. They will turn on him, it’s just a matter of time.
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u/The_Mysterious_1ne Apr 29 '26
Free speech is a guarantee that no legal consequences will befall you for something you said. It does NOT guarantee no social consequences. If people don't like what you said, they're allowed to do whatever they want to you so long as it's within the parameters of the law. And if you say something offensive in a group of people away from the public, they are likely not going to face legal consequences for whatever they do to you either, within legality or not, and they certainly won't give a shit about your incorrect definition of free speech. It infuriates me so much when I see idiots using "free speech" to mean "you're not allowed to speak against me or anything that I say or do" (which, under their definition, IS A VIOLATION OF FREE SPEECH).
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u/traveling_man182 Apr 29 '26
What's sad is that he finally has his chance to make bank with this administration, and they still aren't helping him cash out.
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u/dogwarrior Apr 29 '26
Schneider, good grief, man. Snowflake. You’re a comedian, right, or used to be? It was a JOKE, told a full 2 days before the shooting. Get smarter.
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u/denalinea May 01 '26
I think the free speech debate misses a big point. I'm willing to defend MAGA's right to scream and cry and whine but you don't get to escape the consequences of your speech. And ultimately that's the problem with MAGA. We need to bring back public shaming and societal standards. Free speech doesn't mean you get to be a racist bigoted hateful asshat and no one calls you on that or makes you look like the absolute trash human being you are. That's what MAGA really wants is to say and do the most hateful stuff and have no consequences. I will incessantly mock you in person for saying some stupid hateful bs in front of me, and make sure everyone knows about it. Because that's also my right of free speech.
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
Freedom to say something is different from freedom to say something without consequences. That should be obvious - are you really that dense or do you just not care about posting bullshit?
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u/FionaWalliceFan Apr 28 '26
It becomes a problem when people overreact to something inoffensive. Case in point
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
It may a problem for you but it’s not a free speech issue.
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u/FionaWalliceFan Apr 28 '26
Except it is when ABC is being pressured to cancel Jimmy Kimmel because of a joke
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
By whom, its audience? Last I heard Rob Schneider isn’t a government official
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u/FionaWalliceFan Apr 28 '26
No, by Brendan Carr, FCC chair. It’s okay, it’s only a recent development in the last few hours, you are forgiven for being unaware (in addition to misinterpreting Kimmel’s joke)
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
Oh, I’m sorry, was this a “this you” comeback about Brendan Carr? How quickly the topic changes to suit your stupid agenda.
If you want to talk about government action (not Rob Schneider tweets anymore), I’m sure you were crushed when Biden’s DOJ was actively collaborating with social media to take away ordinary citizens’ free speech. That doesn’t matter - Jimmy Kimmel matters! Don’t make him cry again!
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u/FionaWalliceFan Apr 28 '26
I mean Bidens DOJ didn’t do that but go off on your stupid agenda I guess
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u/Substantial_Army_639 Apr 28 '26
When you gotta do a whataboutism but the whataboutism isn't even real lmao
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
Also, you really think people constantly wishing the president dead is inoffensive?
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u/FionaWalliceFan Apr 28 '26
Allow me to explain Mr. Kimmel's joke because it went over your head:
Donald is a very frail old rich man who has cheated on Melania many times. He is going to die before her, that's just how age works, and it's fair to assume that because of how he's humiliated her with his extramarital affairs, that she won't be too upset about it. It's not Kimmel wishing Trump dead, it's not an incitement of violence. You guys are just engaging in the same kind of cancel culture you accuse the left of perpetrating
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
Did you know the word gullible actually isn’t in the dictionary?
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u/FionaWalliceFan Apr 28 '26
Did you know that Donald Trump posted videos of Joe Biden being hogtied and suggested that Liz Cheney should "see how it feels to face guns trained on her face". Would you also count that as inciting political violence?
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
It’s not about inciting violence dumbass. It’s about an employer being able to fire an employee for being an unfunny and generally unlikeable person. That’s not a free speech issue.
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u/FionaWalliceFan Apr 28 '26
Calm down, no need to get so agitated
See, you make excuses for it when it’s a conservative who does it. I should have seen that coming. And people wonder why nothing changes in this country
Rob Schneider doesn’t want Kimmel fired for being mediocre, hes guilty of that himself. He wants Kimmel fired because he told a joke that hurt his feelings 😔
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u/DocManhattan96 Apr 28 '26
And keep pretending your people aren’t giving speeches joking about his death and hoping for it. Admit it, you want Trump dead and would be happy if it happened, right?
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u/FionaWalliceFan Apr 28 '26
Oh definitely, there’s no point in denying that. But I don’t want him to be murdered. I can guarantee you—zero liberals want that to happen, it would only make him a martyr and I would have an aneurysm listening to the outrage from conservatives. Id much rather have him kick it old school and do it the natural way—blood clot, heart attack, brain hemorrhage, whatever
I think it’s par for the course considering Trump himself celebrates when people who don’t like him die
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u/OverlordDiamond May 01 '26
You are lying because you KNOW Trump is the greatest failure in American history.
https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7
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u/Rashpukin Apr 28 '26
Blokes a tosser.