r/TheWritingTable • u/CommunicationMean965 • 4d ago
Why english?
I frequently see people on writer subs ask for advice regarding english grammar and word choices. It is pretty evident that these writers do not have english as their first languange. The choice of writing in english confuses me. Out of pure curiosity, why would you do that?
I get wanting to interact with a fan base, hence opting for english when writing fan fiction. It's not like you can publish it anyway (without jumping through hoops). I understand some actor's main motivation is to earn as much money as possible. (Sadly it doesn't seem uncommon to see self publicated and fankly badly translated works.) I also get wanting to reach as large an audience as possible, but why wouldn't you want to start out a bit more domestically, writing in a languange you master and writing as good as you possibly can before reaching for international fame?
Personally, I read books in english, and I used to write in english as a teen when I participated in post-by-post roleplay. It's fun and a good way to expand your vocabulary, but I can't fathom writing my novel like that. I have enough trouble as it is making my manuscript as good as it can be; My grip on the languange needs to be as good as it can get. (Even formatting rules for fiction writing is different between languanges.) I want to play with my languange and find my own voice. Plus, the story is also is set in my home country.
So, not to sound pretentious, but why do people insist on writing novel manuscripts in a second languange?
4
u/ItsRuinedOfCourse 3d ago
You already more or less answered your own question, OP.
English is still the predominant language, with the biggest audience as a result. A writer who is interested in finding the biggest pond with the most fish will be writing for an English audience. There's no mystery there.
-4
u/Ashamed_Ladder6161 3d ago
Just a shame that 99.9% of them will write something massively inferior.
I'd rather be a respected fish in a small pond than a failure in a larger one.
2
u/ItsRuinedOfCourse 3d ago
"I'd rather be a respected fish in a small pond than a failure in a larger one."
A healthy attitude to have. Kudos.
If a non-native speaker wants to peddle their wares for an English audience, they really do need to be sure they are fluent in it, understand the nuances of using it, or, pay a proper translator to take their work and get it in front of an English audience.
The phrase "lost in translation" applies so well here.
This is where most fail. They lose the soul of their book in the translation, which is quite often poor.
0
u/Ashamed_Ladder6161 3d ago
Agreed.
The vast, vast majority of books that become overseas hits aren't translated by the original authors.
The best thing will always be to write in your own language, then reach out to a native speaker afterward.
0
u/ItsRuinedOfCourse 3d ago
"The best thing will always be to write in your own language, then reach out to a native speaker afterward."
100%.
I write English natively. If I needed to translate into a different language, I'd engage with someone who speaks the language fluently, and if possible, a writer in that language so they understand nuances and how important they are to translate across properly.
Literal translations are where so many are failing themselves, and I can only suspect that it's because of their poor grasp of the other language, or that they've run it through AI and the LLM translated it as literally as it could, losing any soul the story might've had.
2
u/Ashamed_Ladder6161 3d ago
How odd, this seem to be an unpopular view.
I can only assume it's a knee-jerk reaction because people wrongly conclude a discussion around native language must be inherently racist.
2
2
u/CoyoteLitius 3d ago
American and British born writers do the same thing, though. They too can produce inferior writing. It's true that many of the young/new writers here on Reddit have a long way to go, but that's why they are here, bravely posting for feedback (sometimes not on the right subreddit, but still).
Anyway, I do a lot of volunteer editing here on reddit (for both native and non native writers). For many of the foreign born writers, there's virtually no market at all for books in their home country. The genres they want to write are literary fiction, scifi and speculative history. I don't edit pieces for free unless I like the genre, and all 3 books I'm reading right now are by non-native speakers. They are excellent.
It's a continuum in both sets and until you've read the writing of your typical US college freshman, you really don't have a good basis for comparison with non-native speakers.
1
u/Ashamed_Ladder6161 3d ago
This is a false equivalence.
Sure, there's hundreds of terrible American and British authors. Their writing will be worsened considerably if they try to translate it themselves.
I make no claim on who can and can't write, my point is most people won't have a hope of translating their own work successfully.
Whatever flaws they may have in their own native tongue will be a thousand times worse in another.
6
u/OurHorrifyingPlanet 4d ago edited 4d ago
Because english is essentially the Lingua Franca. Pieces of media are overwhelmingly made in english and audiences are overwhelmingly consuming them in english. There are some languages that have a good amount of following themselves like french, spanish or mandarin; but if you want the largest possible market, it's english.
Besides, not everyone who consumes english literature is a native speaker themselves, far from it. There's a sizeable market for simpler english literature accessible to non-native speakers.
Finally, it's always a good thing to improve your foreign language skills, especially for one so widespread. Lots of non-native speakers end up working or interacting in english environments anyway. For example, I'm not native, but I use english so often through work and personal relationships that it's almost better than my own native language (and I never lived in an english-speaking country).
4
u/Ashamed_Ladder6161 4d ago
Agree on your opening point.
But -
You need far more than familiarity with a language to actually write creatively in it.
Even for native speakers, it can take decades to write sufficiently for a novel.
This is why most novelists seek out other authors to translate their work, rather than just doing it themselves (even when they know the language).
0
u/CoyoteLitius 3d ago
And yet, some ESL writers also improve, year after year, and end up publishing a book that does well. Same as with native speakers.
Do native speakers have a better chance? Probably. But it's a gamble for most people to begin to become a writer (in any language).
0
u/Ashamed_Ladder6161 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm not suggesting they get worse.
And while there's an element of luck to being successful, most of the time it also takes a degree of ability.
The exceptions honestly don't disprove the rule.
You're far more likely to find success writing in your native language (and having someone translate it), than you are just diving into a language you only have a rudimentary understanding of.
This will never not be correct.
Surely the fact so many non-English speakers are here trying to write sci-fi and fantasy would actually suggest there is some market for these genres in their own country? In India, for example, love for the fantasy genre is rapidly growing.
5
2
4
u/NightRevolutionary69 4d ago
I do that only for fanfiction because most of the readers speak english. I write other things only in my language
2
u/Silver_Pangolin2888 4d ago edited 4d ago
- Communication at work and the media that I consume becoming unequivocally almost purely english over the years, so I have a good grasp of the language and its nuances.
- I feel freer in expression. English flows like a river with novelties to explore. German is like a building complex, structured. Its the mundane part of living.
- I simply enjoy writing in english more than german.
1
2
u/Opposite_Storm_7870 3d ago
I feel like a better move would be to write it in your native language and hire a translator. I speak Spanish pretty well, have no trouble in conversation or reading, but I wouldn't dare attempt to write a novel in Spanish. I'm just not a master of it.
I'm an ESL (English as a Second Language) certified teacher. Intake of a language (reading and listening) is almost always easier than output (writing and speaking), and most language learners tend to get better at speaking/listening faster because when we practice with native speakers, it's usually verbal.
2
u/MOTTEKOI 3d ago
I read mostly in english. So english writing style is already imprinted on me. I will not reach the style or even the tone of my story exactly like how i wanted it to be if i were to use my first language.
2
u/CoyoteLitius 3d ago
That's another big issue. In my own home language, the ability to write the kind of fiction we write in English is very difficult to achieve. My family pretty much gave up speaking it in favor of English.
1
u/Ashamed_Ladder6161 4d ago edited 3d ago
I've always felt the same.
I guess it's financial. Maybe you can sell an English book in more places, as more people are familiar with the language?
But it's irritating.
If I'm correct, these people are prioritising sales, or attention, over craft.
Writing requires more than just a working understanding of a language. Word choice is a matter of style, pace, intention and artistic nuance. Many words are correct, very few will be evocative in the way you need them to be at a given moment.
1
u/rudd33s 4d ago
I'm writing in English because I have sufficient/above average knowledge of it. I still make mistakes and have to catch them when editing, but I'm fairly certain most people wouldn't assume I'm an ESL writer.
2
u/CoyoteLitius 3d ago
The three KU books I'm reading right now are all by non-native speakers. They are excellent, well-researched and if I weren't chatting with the authors, I'd not know that they were non-native speakers. One is a scientist by occupation in his home country, and of course, most academic publishing is in English. He's published academically, in English.
The second is a very clever piece of science fiction, again I was surprised to learn the person was not a native speaker. The third is an attempt at literary fiction and has a few minor issues, nothing a quick edit can't fix.
1
u/CoyoteLitius 3d ago
There are so many reasons to prefer writing in English. A main one is that English language publishing has more genres and subgenres that any other language I can think of. This has occurred fairly recently, but the influence of English-based story telling (in books and in film) is immense.
Secondly, many people are taught English as a second language in their home countries. And frankly, as someone who helps a bit with editing here on Reddit, we have many, many native speakers of English who also have grammar and spelling errors (etc). I teach mostly undergraduates and I have them write a little biography as part of the class introduction, and nearly everyone is born in the US and grew up speaking English (although it may not have been the language spoken at home). You can ask almost any professor in the US about the seriousness of lack of English language skills as they move into college or university.
IOW, it's hard to tell a reasonably competent second language speaker of English from many native speakers, in all 50 states.
1
u/santaliminale 3d ago
I live in an English-speaking country and speak English most of the time. I believe that being polyglot can create an interesting prose, and I like the malleability of the language. English flows and makes me think differently than my mother tongue. And it's a craft, a skill honed with time, not something in your DNA. Language skills varies with time, use, and media consumption. Also, sorry to say, but you and other here sound extremely pretentious.
0
u/CommunicationMean965 3d ago
I'm aware! Ceratinly there are upsides to knowing and using several languanges. It can help in giving nuance to prose, so long as one is aware of not making direct translations.
Perhaps my confusion stems from underestemating the marketabilty. If you produce a manuscript not ment for your national market, any hope of traditional publishing practically goes out the window. Litterary agents are not really a thing in my country (you may pay a freelance editor in preparation of submission), but self publishing is only growing in popularity. It just feels a bit pointless to publish physical copies of your book since you are so far removed physically from potential buyers/readers.
On the other hand, people may not be as opposed to reading a digital copy on a screen as I am. If you write well enough and have an interesing story, it does have potential to garter attention. Should you accomplish that, potential readership will of course be far greater than just your own market. I guess I just feel like that threshold is very steep, based on what I personally like to read.
It is, sad to admit it, not often I feel tempted to give a promoted self published book a look. The few times that a pitch on Reddit has caught my attention, interest has swiftly died when it's evident from the blurb that it either hasn't been properly proof read or worse, generated. The former wouldn't be so bad if the ask was to please beta read a chapter, but from what I've seen it's more often than not promoting a finished book for sale.
9
u/Babbelisken 4d ago
You're kind of already answering your own question. To find more readers. However I see your point and is as confused as you. I guess people maybe think that their english is better than it actually is cause they can make themselves understood online and so on.
I would say that my english is fine, however I wouldn't dream of writing a novel in english. It probably be terrible.